What the hell?

[Jack Lain]

I really don't understand why so many of the latest debates are breaking down into the issue of canon.

Post after post, debate after debate is becoming nothing more than the rehash of the same shit we have gone over again and again. What is canon?
To post on this site, read the darn newbie intro and consider what it says. If you are losing in a debate, don't change the damn subject to a canon debate because you are losing. Shit, I say dumb ass things all the fucking time. So what? I admit that I was wrong, go back to the gist or parts of my argument that are still valid and continue fighting. And if I am proven to be wrong do you really think I'm going to lose any sleep over it? Fuck no. If I were perfect I wouldn't post here.

Do not change topics to canon debates when you are losing the argument. It makes you look weak. The canon policy is posted on multiple websites and again here. If you disagree, then you are probably better off not posting in these forums to begin with. Everyone here pretty much agrees, Trek and Star Wars alike that this is the established ground rule.

Besides, it makes for some really fucking boring reading to keep seeing the same shit brought up again and again. Think of something new or just shut up. You are boring the shit out of me with your constant lack of style and crap. Christ, I haven't seen a new idea here in about two weeks. That is pretty fucking sad considering some of you think you are so fucking smart. At least, stay on topic and don't immediately switch the debate to a canon argument the second someone shows you to be wrong. Hell, that is so fucking lame. Deal with it. If you are wrong, so what? Tell joe poster replyer he wins that topic and start another for your next argument. That at least is intellectually valid and not a cop out.

Example:
Crap!!! I mean we all know that a real hair, ripped shirt, with blood in the corner of his mouth, Kirk beats the fucking hell out of an ISD! Single-handed. But there is no reason to debate canon about the truth of that statement! hehehe. ;)

[Captain Cyran]

LOL, Yeah I suppose it's true Jack.

[Master of Ossus]

Seriously, the policy of this website is pretty clear. Canon is canon. After that comes official evidence for SW. Really, for almost everybody else, with the possible exception of some B5 novels and the other works of JMS, there isn't a lot besides what is canon.

[Jim Raynor]

I really don't know why the fuck Trekkies and other idiots always whine and bitch about the EU not being canon. It's has no effect on the eventual outcome of the debate. It's not hard to figure out Lucas' canon policy if you ever pick up anything SW related. Also, do these retards realize that most EU hurts the Empire more than it helps? Examples:

Canon: The DS 2 was built in secret on some backwater moon in complete secret with a fraction of its resources.
EU: The construction of the Executor bankrupts multiple systems.

Canon: TIE fighters are seen holding their own against X-wings and other Rebel fighters.
EU: TIE fighters are useless targets to be disposed of at the leisure of Wedge and the rest of Rogue Squadron. Also pulls a new weakness (durasteel windows blacking out at explosions) out of no where.

Canon: ISDs seem to be the Empire's standard warship, and they are dwarfed by both the Executor and the Communications Cruiser. Logically, there must be some unseen hierarchy of ships between the common Destroyers and the Executor. Even backwater planets like Tatooine are patrolled by ISDs.
EU: ISDs are the Empire's top of the line ships, and there are only 25k of them. The bulk of the Imperial Navy is composed of relatively tiny ships, most of which are also outdated pieces of crap like the Carrack, Dreadnaught, and Corvette(doesn't the Empire construct MODERN ship classes to fill out the smaller ship types in its fleet?)

Canon: Fighters can't damage enemy capital ships without their own capships taking out the shields first.
EU: Rebel fighters pummel and destroy Star Destroyers time and time again.

[Mr Bean]

I can answear a few of these

EU: The construction of the Executor bankrupts multiple systems.

Realy poor systems(And systems as in Solar type, just a sun or sun's with a few planets not sectors or Regions, Considering the fact that they have thousands of sectors and each sector has hundreds of systems thats what? five-ten tops? So 1% of 1% of 1% of a Reigion(Eight Regions? Not sure realy but it ends up being around .00001% of the Empires bottem line)(EU also provides that Kuat has built five SSDs so Far)

EU: TIE fighters are useless targets to be disposed of at the leisure of Wedge and the rest of Rogue Squadron. Also pulls a new weakness (durasteel windows blacking out at explosions) out of no where.

Your talking about the, THE Most elite squadren in bascily the Galaxy when they go up aginst thier counter-part the 181st or former memebers of that Squadren they typicly get thiere rears handed to them. Simple fact is TIE pilots don't get near as much fly time as X-Wings because of survibaility(Two shots maybe three a TIE is dead, Six to ten before an X-Wing Chokes)

And the Durasteel makes sense, These are cheap ass fighters designed for Swarming and Protecting thier Carrier, Your not going to have super advanced Shields on them, And I'd like to add it has to be a pretty BIG explosion to darken them(Like A cap-ship blowing up less than 1 KM away )

EU: ISDs are the Empire's top of the line ships, and there are only 25k of them. The bulk of the Imperial Navy is composed of relatively tiny ships, most of which are also outdated pieces of crap like the Carrack, Dreadnaught, and Corvette(doesn't the Empire construct MODERN ship classes to fill out the smaller ship types in its fleet?)

To be honset they never had the time, The Empire was in power for less than ten years, two years in they had upgrading from Acclmators and Dreadnaughts to Victory Class, Three more in they started production of the ISD MK I, Come TESB they where working on MK IIs, To be honset they never had the time(And 25k Nearly Mile Long Ships in six Years IS Impressive)

Canon: Fighters can't damage enemy capital ships without their own capships taking out the shields first.
EU: Rebel fighters pummel and destroy Star Destroyers time and time again.

Sorry but this one is Bull-shit, No where do we have Fighters attacking any Cap-Ships in the Movies or Books(Besides the Cut scean in ROTJ) and even then thats basic miltary tatics. Like kills Like First, Cap ships Target Cap Ships, Fighters Kill Fighters

And besdies EU provides a good source of why fighters are good, When the Iron Fist and a multiple ship group attack Solo's Task Force because of the fact that he kept his fighters in Close Solo was able to escape by running all shields to one side letting him race by un-damaged because there was no fighters out to hit his un-shielded side and quote "Keep him honset"

Remeber they can shift shields all to one side and realy increase protection there however if thier are fighters around they can easily damage the ship in the un-shielded porition, Thus Fighters server to prevent this along with provided pin-point strikes on Cap-Ships to strip it of weapons

Also to be honset your example is flawed, Agian thats ROUGE Squadren, The best damn bunch of pilots out there, As Tyhco comments, Sort of a Group of Jedi flying in they are the best pilots out there on either side

[Cpt_Frank]

The Empire was in power for less than ten years,

Err... no.
The Clone Wars endured for 4 years, and if EII took place 10 years after EI, then theoretically the Empire could technically be 18 years old (from Yavin as point 0).
Still doesn't change anything, just for the sake of historical correctness.

[Mr Bean]

acutal it does, I think Luke is 28 during TESB do you?

6 Year before Yavin he takes power if I remeber right

Then 2 Years intbetween E1 and E2

2 more between E2=3

6+2+2=10 roughly since we don't know when it started but Daala and Mara both mention that the Empire was in power for BARLEY a Decade(Decade=10 Years)

[Cpt_Frank]

Official timeline says:
32 years before Yavin EI (battle of Naboo)
22 years bY EII beginning of Clone wars
20 years bY EIII around that time or shortly before Padme gets pregnant
18 years clone wars end empire arises
conclusion Lewk is around 21 years old by the time of ANH fits perfectly

[Crazy_Vasey]

Two years between Ep 1 and Ep 2 Anakin don't half grow quick if yer right there Bean