Enterprise nil v. Death Star II

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Enterprise nil v. Death Star II

Post by CorSec »

It's incredible, but true. Somewhere on the net I am entrenched in a battle between the Enterprise nil and the Death Star II. It is amazing how much credit people are willing to give not only the ship but also the crew and even the hopeless technology of the Federation.

I came to the thread a bit late, but initiated an Imperial Smackdown of sorts. If I say so myself, so far I've faired quite well. However, there's an argument being posited that I haven't yet seen so I'm not sure how to refute it.
scifiman wrote:Another point, the shield generators for the death star pictured weren't opereational, thats why Han and company went down to the surface of endor to destroy it. SOOOOO.......The Enterprise takes out the generator with a photon torpedo and then finishes off the death star with anti-matter, plain and simple. Or they come in from the unfinished side and shoot it in the back, so to speak, with phasers and all their photon torpedos (each of which could be rigged to carry anti-matter).
(Bold, mine.)

My reply to this was as follows:
CorSec wrote:The shield generators for the Death Star weren't working. That is correct but it isn't what I said. I said the hypermatter reactor's shielding was online.

If disabling the planetary shield from orbit was an option, then why didn't the Rebels do that? Could it be that the shield generator is housed within the shield it creates?

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Could some kind soul point me to some anti-antimatter arguments? (Searching for antimatter and arguments on this site is like looking for the words 'the' or 'and' in Google. ;) )
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Post by Ghost Rider »

Uh...yeah.

You're either dealing with the Cult of Connie(wherein they believe that the Ent-nil can destroy stars) or a moron who has no grasp of what 200GT does to a ship of Ent-nil's power.

I mean why anything dealing with antimatter...given how is it going to hit the Reactor of the DS2?

Unfinished side :roll: ...haven't heard that one at cons for some time.
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Post by CorSec »

Ghost Rider wrote:You're either dealing with the Cult of Connie(wherein they believe that the Ent-nil can destroy stars) or a moron who has no grasp of what 200GT does to a ship of Ent-nil's power.
If you can believe it, it's neither and both. I'm having to circumvent the following comments (not all from the same person):
The Enterprise would win, the Death Star takes too long to lock on to and fire on a relatively stationary target. All the Enterprise would have to do is send a drop or two of anti-matter into the Death Star by way of the transporter and it would be all over. Another point would be that the Death Star pictured relied on a shield generator on the surface of a planet for protection. Wipe that out with a photon torpedo or two and the Death Star would be a sitting duck, a very large sitting duck.
Yeah the Enterprise, no contest. The Death Star may have Vader and planet busting power, but the Enterprise has Spock and Kirk. One almost feels sorry for the stormtroopers. Almost.
I'd have to agree with the anti-matter transportaion idea, the death star wouldn't stand a chance.
. and theres one more thing that no one's mentioned: The Deathstar is crewed and led by the Bad Guys and the Enterprise is crewed by the Good Guys. and the Good Guys always win.
After my first post which demonstrated a sample of the power disparity, I got this:
BUT, you forgot the transporters AND anti-matter. Just beam some anti-matter inside the death star and I figure that's all she wrote. Another point, the death star gunners had one heck of a time trying to shoot down any of the rebel attackers, what makes you so sure they got any better at it?
To which I replied that the hypermatter reacter was shielded and the entire Death Star was shielded, therefor no beam in a bomb trickery. I also mentioned relative scale of the ships involved. An x-wing is ~1/20th the size (length only) of the Enterprise nil. The Enterprise is roughly the same size as a Nebulon B and the Death Star's heavy and light gunners could make quick work of that size ship.
What if Spock could learn the force?
The strength of the Enterprise isn't counted by the power of her phasers or her shields or her torpedoes... these things are immaterial, a mere tally and comparison of firepower misses the point. Which is the heart and soul and will of the crew. Where there's a will Kirk and Spock'd find a way, probably without even taking the weapons on-line or firing a shot.
Overwhelming force is no guarantee of victory, as the French found out at Agincourt, the Zulus at Rourkes Drift, the Persians at Thermopylae, the Luftwaffe over the skies of Britain...

hey, maybe Spock could mind-meld with Vader and turn him back to the fluffy side of the Force... or if all else fails they could simply ram at light or warp speed, that should release enough energy to destroy the Deathstar.
It's every single fallacious argument ever invented!

I got ten bucks saying that Kirk, Spock and Bones will befriend the Ewoks so they can defeat the troops on the ground and blow the shield generator (with the antimatter laden photon torpedos) and then they can destroy the Death Star II (avoiding death blow damage by heavy and light turbolasers and the hordes of TIE fighters) with the same magically engineered antimatter torpedos.

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Post by Lord Poe »

These cheeseheads haven't confided with you how the Enterprise would get the Death Star 2 to lower the Endor shield so Kirk can take out the shield generator, have they?

BTW, since they are talking about the "unfinished" DS2, this places the Enterprise at Endor, at the time of ROTJ, before the Rebel Attack. So... how does the Enterprise even enter the Endor system, and survive long enough to GET to Endor, when the Executor, several Star Destroyers, and countless TIE fighters are in system, not to mention fully armed and operational weapons systems of the DS2, which includes the superlaser, which can target individual ships?

Let me know what they say....
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Post by CorSec »

Lord Poe wrote:These cheeseheads haven't confided with you how the Enterprise would get the Death Star 2 to lower the Endor shield so Kirk can take out the shield generator, have they?
Like I said, I think I just won myself ten bucks (of course, betting only with oneself is a futile gesture).

They'll most likely try to imitate the actions of the Rebels. The front entrance to the shield generator compound is obviously heavily guarded. The back entrance is secretly heavily guarded. My guess is the away team will look as follows: Kirk ("Han"), Spock ("Luke"), Bones ("Chewie"), some female who will sleep with Kirk ("Leia") and a couple of doomed redshirts (one to be killed by the Ewoks for dinner and another to be crushed under foot of an AT-ST).

How they befriend the Ewoks without Golden Rod is beyond me, but it will likely involve a) Kirk's charm or b) Bones' medical technology.

It's great how they simply 'assume' victory.

I just remembered one other thing: How're they going to get the away team on the planet's surface? If I recall correctly, Han and his team had to get permission to approach the planet. (Was Endor protected by its own, seperate, planetary shield?)
Lord Poe wrote:BTW, since they are talking about the "unfinished" DS2, this places the Enterprise at Endor, at the time of ROTJ, before the Rebel Attack. So... how does the Enterprise even enter the Endor system, and survive long enough to GET to Endor, when the Executor, several Star Destroyers, and countless TIE fighters are in system, not to mention fully armed and operational weapons systems of the DS2, which includes the superlaser, which can target individual ships?
I'm keeping that ace on the other side of the sentry moon. When the time is right, I'll unleash all that is unholy upon them. I mean, they're not wrapping their minds around the power disparity and numbers advantage that the Death Star II has all by itself. They'd certainly cry 'FOUL!' if I pulled out the rest of the fleet.
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Post by Dalton »

God...

This is for those who think the E-nil could take it out with sheer firepower alone.

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Post by CorSec »

Thanks, Dalton. I slip that under my sleeve as well.

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Post by Grand Moff Yenchin »

For practicing...
The Enterprise would win, the Death Star takes too long to lock on to and fire on a relatively stationary target. All the Enterprise would have to do is send a drop or two of anti-matter into the Death Star by way of the transporter and it would be all over. Another point would be that the Death Star pictured relied on a shield generator on the surface of a planet for protection. Wipe that out with a photon torpedo or two and the Death Star would be a sitting duck, a very large sitting duck.
1. The shield, the hull (dense metal) will make the transporter fail.

2. Endor was covered with a planetary shield, it will take a whole shitload of photorps to...what, annoy the Imperials?
Yeah the Enterprise, no contest. The Death Star may have Vader and planet busting power, but the Enterprise has Spock and Kirk. One almost feels sorry for the stormtroopers. Almost.
This has nothing to do with the Enterprise getting blown up by whatever the Imperials send up.

ps. Actually I think since Spock's mind techniques will make him vulnerable to the Force...
I'd have to agree with the anti-matter transportaion idea, the death star wouldn't stand a chance.
Wong's site has an Endor scenario, even with TNG era tech the Feddies will lose nasty.
. and theres one more thing that no one's mentioned: The Deathstar is crewed and led by the Bad Guys and the Enterprise is crewed by the Good Guys. and the Good Guys always win.
Does that mean Robin Hood can shoot down the DS with his bow and arrow?
What if Spock could learn the force?
What if Spock fell into the Dark Side? Vulcans suppress their feelings, a spark from the Dark Side will obviously unleash it.
The strength of the Enterprise isn't counted by the power of her phasers or her shields or her torpedoes... these things are immaterial, a mere tally and comparison of firepower misses the point. Which is the heart and soul and will of the crew. Where there's a will Kirk and Spock'd find a way, probably without even taking the weapons on-line or firing a shot.
The clock...er...stop-watch....er...is ticking.......*BOOM*
Overwhelming force is no guarantee of victory, as the French found out at Agincourt, the Zulus at Rourkes Drift, the Persians at Thermopylae, the Luftwaffe over the skies of Britain...

hey, maybe Spock could mind-meld with Vader and turn him back to the fluffy side of the Force... or if all else fails they could simply ram at light or warp speed, that should release enough energy to destroy the Deathstar.
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Post by D.Turtle »

IIRC Endor was also proteected by a shield - don't know how to prove that though.
The shield generator was protected at the very least though. You can see that during the Rebel Briefing. The depiction of the shield shows that the generator is protected.

A couple more things: How will they find the rear entrance?
Using active scanners is NOT advisable :p

Remind them that the Death Star has more weapons than only the Superlaser. It has LOTS of Turbolasers. And the Enterprise is huge and clumsy compared to fighters.

About teleporting: Remind them that they are very easily blocked and unlikely to be able to get through hundreds of kilometers of armor.
Transporters were blocked by natural stone and also by the emissions of a nuclear powerplant. The Deathstar powerplant is a 'bit' stronger than a nuclear powerplant.

About the good guys always winning: Tell them to watch Episode 3 (when it is out), Episode 2 ('everything is proceeding as planned'), and Episode 5.

About overwhelming force: Remind them how HUGE the overwhelming force is. This is akin to a single person with a pistol against the entire US Armed Forces.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

and the pistol isnt loaded.
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Post by Ghost Rider »

and said person is a 2 week old baby.
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Post by Grand Moff Yenchin »

Ghost Rider wrote:and said person is a 2 week old baby.
and the pistol is a matchlock type
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Post by jegs2 »

Yeah, they all sound like "Cult of Connie" types to me.

Enterprise fires it's 999999999999999999 GT phasors, missing the DS2 and accidently vaporizing a nearby galaxy.
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Post by CorSec »

D.Turtle wrote:A couple more things: How will they find the rear entrance?
Using active scanners is NOT advisable :p
Noted, thanks :)
D.Turtle wrote:Remind them that the Death Star has more weapons than only the Superlaser. It has LOTS of Turbolasers. And the Enterprise is huge and clumsy compared to fighters.
I've mentioned the heavy and light turbolaser batteries, but I do believe I underestimated their numbers. I think I only mentioned hundreds to thousands.
About teleporting: Remind them that they are very easily blocked and unlikely to be able to get through hundreds of kilometers of armor.
Transporters were blocked by natural stone and also by the emissions of a nuclear powerplant. The Deathstar powerplant is a 'bit' stronger than a nuclear powerplant.
They haven't persisted with beaming anything since I mentioned shields of any kind. Plus, if they transport something, that means there's an active scan and as you said, that isn't recommended.
D.Turtle wrote:About overwhelming force: Remind them how HUGE the overwhelming force is. This is akin to a single person with a pistol against the entire US Armed Forces.
Again, I underestimated. I said this battle is akin to a platoon of modern US Marines against a small band of hunter-gatherers.
jegs2 wrote:Yeah, they all sound like "Cult of Connie" types to me.

Enterprise fires it's 999999999999999999 GT phasors, missing the DS2 and accidently vaporizing a nearby galaxy.
To be honest, before I found this site I wouldn't have been able to discuss my way out of a paper bag where it concerns a versus battle such as this. I would have dismissed both technologies as being equal but different. While these people are science fiction geeks like the rest of us, they aren't nearly as critical. Don't be so hard on them, they're just people.
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Post by CorSec »

Well, I think I wore at least one of the out.
scifiman wrote:two different sets of "physics" also seem to be invloved with the universes portrayed, in one you can travel many times the speed of light in the other you rely on "jumping into" hyperspace as the means to go great distances.

but when you come right down to it, the popular opinion goes with the Enterprise winning over the death star. any further arguement only makes it look like the losers are whining about losing...
Reply:
CorSec wrote:The numbers I referenced above were quantified from the visual evidence (TV and movies) they do not rely upon local physics theories of either multiverse.

Remember, it was popular opinion that the Earth was flat and that the entire universe revolved around us at one time.
Thanks for your helpful suggestions, everyone.

This is no longer the thread you're looking for.

You can go about your business.

Move along.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

he's using an old jedi mind trick!
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Post by Keevan_Colton »

Overwhelming force is no guarantee of victory, as the French found out at Agincourt, the Zulus at Rourkes Drift, the Persians at Thermopylae, the Luftwaffe over the skies of Britain...

hey, maybe Spock could mind-meld with Vader and turn him back to the fluffy side of the Force... or if all else fails they could simply ram at light or warp speed, that should release enough energy to destroy the Deathstar.
God damn I love that....Agincourt was a great example that overwhelming FIREPOWER not MANPOWER will win the day......similar for Rourkes drift...and the other two are examples of the importance of direction of force, the fact lots/big guns are no good if you a) leave them at home or b) can only bring a handful to bear at a time.


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Post by consequences »

That, and the fact that the Persians won at Thermopylae :roll:
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Post by Ajaz50 »

I'm an ST fan but even I must admit, Ent-Nil would get ass wouped by DS2. You can't transport through sheilds...

Spock can't control the force.

There is however 1 way that the Ent could win. Simply crash the damn ship into the deathstar. Subspace explosioton, warp breach, etc.... Its rubble. Of corse then we'd have to kill everyone on bord because the imperials would never let them servive, if they escaped the explosion (assuming they would be stupid enouph to let the Ent that close in the first place) Even that wouldn't distroy it though, only disable it, and only if they hit it the right way.
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Post by Howedar »

We don't know how powerful such an explosion would be. It could destroy the Endor system, or it could be a pretty fireworks show for the Emperor in his throne room, assuming the shield doesn't block the view.
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Post by Dalton »

Ajaz50 wrote:I'm an ST fan but even I must admit, Ent-Nil would get ass wouped by DS2. You can't transport through sheilds...

Spock can't control the force.

There is however 1 way that the Ent could win. Simply crash the damn ship into the deathstar. Subspace explosioton, warp breach, etc.... Its rubble. Of corse then we'd have to kill everyone on bord because the imperials would never let them servive, if they escaped the explosion (assuming they would be stupid enouph to let the Ent that close in the first place) Even that wouldn't distroy it though, only disable it, and only if they hit it the right way.
I refer you to the picture I posted a link to above.
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Re: Enterprise nil v. Death Star II

Post by Slartibartfast »

CorSec wrote:It's incredible, but true. Somewhere on the net I am entrenched in a battle between the Enterprise nil and the Death Star II. It is amazing how much credit people are willing to give not only the ship but also the crew and even the hopeless technology of the Federation.

I came to the thread a bit late, but initiated an Imperial Smackdown of sorts. If I say so myself, so far I've faired quite well. However, there's an argument being posited that I haven't yet seen so I'm not sure how to refute it.
scifiman wrote:Another point, the shield generators for the death star pictured weren't opereational, thats why Han and company went down to the surface of endor to destroy it. SOOOOO.......The Enterprise takes out the generator with a photon torpedo and then finishes off the death star with anti-matter, plain and simple. Or they come in from the unfinished side and shoot it in the back, so to speak, with phasers and all their photon torpedos (each of which could be rigged to carry anti-matter).
(Bold, mine.)

My reply to this was as follows:
CorSec wrote:The shield generators for the Death Star weren't working. That is correct but it isn't what I said. I said the hypermatter reactor's shielding was online.

If disabling the planetary shield from orbit was an option, then why didn't the Rebels do that? Could it be that the shield generator is housed within the shield it creates?

"Young fool. Only now, at the end, do you understand."
Could some kind soul point me to some anti-antimatter arguments? (Searching for antimatter and arguments on this site is like looking for the words 'the' or 'and' in Google. ;) )
Um well yeah, it's a no-brainer. Why else did Han have the old codes and asked for the shield to be opened, so he could land in the planet?

Enterprise fires photon at the Endor shield generator. Photon explodes against shield generated by generator. Shield generator generates shield, duh.
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Post by Slartibartfast »

The strength of the Enterprise isn't counted by the power of her phasers or her shields or her torpedoes... these things are immaterial, a mere tally and comparison of firepower misses the point. Which is the heart and soul and will of the crew. Where there's a will Kirk and Spock'd find a way, probably without even taking the weapons on-line or firing a shot.
The weapons are immaterial, it's the soul what counts. WHAT THE FUCK?!?!
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Post by Dalton »

Slartibartfast wrote:
A Looney wrote:The strength of the Enterprise isn't counted by the power of her phasers or her shields or her torpedoes... these things are immaterial, a mere tally and comparison of firepower misses the point. Which is the heart and soul and will of the crew. Where there's a will Kirk and Spock'd find a way, probably without even taking the weapons on-line or firing a shot.
The weapons are immaterial, it's the soul what counts. WHAT THE FUCK?!?!
Sounds like a variation on the Good Guys Always Win tactic.
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Post by Isolder74 »

This reminds me of this webpage

Enterprise vs Death Star
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