What's the point???

Soulman · Post by **Soulman** » 2002-07-09 05:02pm

Why are we still debating?

SW has won, debating this is like debating HMS Victory vs HMS Dreadnaught....

IRG CommandoJoe · Post by **IRG CommandoJoe** » 2002-07-09 05:03pm

Or the Bismarck vs the HMS Hood......lol.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-09 05:20pm

Have they now.... have they really.

Thats at least one post on this forum that if correct would bring the SW side down to eart.... Coruscant with a bump.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-09 07:20pm

Because it's fun?

Because some people still think Treknobabble is gonna accomplish anything?

Because something has to prevent us from focusing our overly-analytic minds on reality, and coming to the conclusion we could replace President Bush with a set of Tonka Toys?

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-09 07:33pm

Acutal I think we don't need Tonka Toys
Lincon logs would do just as well

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-09 11:14pm

Because the majority of each side is too petty and obssessed to just give up trying to do the impossible and convert each and every member of the other side.

MagicHateBall · Post by **MagicHateBall** » 2002-07-09 11:17pm

Because it's fun to kick people while they're down, even if they don't realize it.

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-09 11:18pm

What's the point? The point is simple, really.

ST side is trying to make SW side admit that every seemingly unbeatable enemy has at least ONE weakness, including the Empire.

SW side is trying to make ST side admit that the "good guys" don't always win.

Of course, there are also some very basic factors involved. ST side can't understand why SW side takes such perverse delight in cheering for Space Nazis. SW side... well, the SW side is just taking delight in cheering for Space Nazis.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-09 11:47pm

Ugh while I wholeheartedly agree with you John, I know this will probably only lead to counters with "So what, you guys are rooting for space commies!"

If it works and the majority of people are happy, what exactly is the point of trying to insist that a system of government that works in it's own universe and has no problems with the majority of the society being unhappy to the point of rebellion is actually subtly sinister and evil because we cannot comprehend how exactly it works and works so well? It's no dictatorship with significant portions of the population in open rebellion, but it works and despite attempts to read something evil into a quasi-utopia, isn't evil because otherwise it wouldn't be Star Trek, an optimistic, some claim overly so, vision of the future. Go ahead mock fans of Star Trek for supporting an optimistic view of the future and try and claim that it is anything besides an optimistic view of the future but in the end you mock yourselves because in the end Star Wars is just as optimistic, the good guys eventually win, the bad guys eventually loose.

Robert Treder · Post by **Robert Treder** » 2002-07-09 11:50pm

SCVN 2812 wrote:If it works and the majority of people are happy, what exactly is the point of trying to insist that a system of government that works in it's own universe and has no problems with the majority of the society being unhappy to the point of rebellion is actually subtly sinister and evil because we cannot comprehend how exactly it works and works so well?

We never really see the majority of society in ST, do we?

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-09 11:55pm

No, but you don't see the majority of society on CNN either, do you?

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2002-07-10 01:42am

John Clark wrote:No, but you don't see the majority of society on CNN either, do you?

I get the feeling that any alien intelligence that listened in on our TV channels would get a very strange impression of human culture.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-10 05:55am

John Clark wrote:What's the point? The point is simple, really.

ST side is trying to make SW side admit that every seemingly unbeatable enemy has at least ONE weakness, including the Empire.

SW side is trying to make ST side admit that the "good guys" don't always win.

Of course, there are also some very basic factors involved. ST side can't understand why SW side takes such perverse delight in cheering for Space Nazis. SW side... well, the SW side is just taking delight in cheering for Space Nazis.

Correction: The Imps aren't space nazis. They're ruthless and brutal, but not on a rascist base, even if the EU tries to make us believe so.
In the Empire, you are personally much more free than in the communist Federation, where Starfleet controlls your whole life, where there is no such thing as free trade or personal freedom, and where you have to either subscribe to Starfleet's questinable catalogue of moral and ethics, or are outcast, described as a barbarian, and probably sent to some moral corection camp or something like that where they try to brake your mind.
I tell you: Living in the Empire surely isn't worse!

And of course, the Empire isn't unbeatable. But only if you have the numbers and the technology to do so. ST hasn't. And there isn't one fatal flaw in all their ship designs or something like that which would allow to employ the Ultimate Final Trekkie Cop-Out (TM).

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-10 08:54am

Yeah, the Empire isn't the unstopable enemy. I'm sure the Culture would have a chance.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-10 12:28pm

Correction: The Imps aren't space nazis. They're ruthless and brutal, but not on a rascist base, even if the EU tries to make us believe so.
In the Empire, you are personally much more free than in the communist Federation, where Starfleet controlls your whole life, where there is no such thing as free trade or personal freedom, and where you have to either subscribe to Starfleet's questinable catalogue of moral and ethics, or are outcast, described as a barbarian, and probably sent to some moral corection camp or something like that where they try to brake your mind.
I tell you: Living in the Empire surely isn't worse!

(TM).[/quote]

Your evidence please?

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-10 12:38pm

Look at the 'why is the Empire so evil?' thread for more detailed info:
Just the main points:
-free trade inevitably means personal freedom
-Darth Maul - Palp's apprentice
-the senate was still present during most time of the Imperial reign
I hope I don't have to explain to you why the Federation is a communist, comformist society trying to kill every bit of privacy or individualism.
It's pretty obvious.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-10 02:21pm

What canon statements prove the Empire wasnt racist?

In the federation people are happy and Earth is virtually crime free (it doesnt take armed gaurds on the street either) compare that to some of the dives the empire has.

In the Federation people can do what they like (Job wise) and not have to worry about money.

In the Empire you have to do what ever is open to you just to put food on the table.

The empire supports slavery (EU, not contradicted as far as I can see) while the Feds prize freedom.

Its like communism because the state looks after people making sure they arent hungry, homeless and so on but they still hold free elections and everyone works towards the common good.

Doesnt seem to bad to me.

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2002-07-10 02:42pm

What do you mean, the Feddies prize freedom? If you don't get paid, why would anybody work. It's not natural. The only way to get people to work without pay is brainwashing or punishment. I think Mike goes over that in one of his essays. I don't know about you, but I think I'll take the Empire's work and you'll get paid policy over being brainwashed by the Feddies.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-10 02:50pm

Ah it isnt natural but do we see any brainwashing? No.

Remember "mankind has evolved" hmm wait thats from a different Patrick Stewart role.

"we have more evolved sensibilities" There that will do - in this future people work together because Humans are no longer self centered creatures.

As for not working - hmm we know that the Starfleet folk enjoy their Jobs and the writers do, so do teachers, cooks - yeah they love their jobs - I cant think of someone in Trek who hated their Job.

We know the empires racist so the Feds are still a cut above them at least.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-07-10 02:54pm

The fact that the Empire is racist is contradicted by
1) the senate being present until 4 years before the end of the new order
(unless of course you assume the senators would have tollerated that-
the senate wasn't completely powerless, since it was apparently necessary to keep control over the galaxy without the rule of fear)
2) Darh Maul being Palp's fucking apprentice! If Palpy was sooooo racist like everyone seems to think, well then why would he take a non-human as his possible successor?

As for the Fed issue: You've just proven yourself the federation is communist: with this 'working for the common good of humanity' thing.
Tell me: how do you get someone to work if you don't pay him (like it seems to be the case in the Federation)?
Most people won't work voluntarily for the common good of humanity.
So, you've got 2 possibilities:
1)force him to
or 2) (and more likely regarding the federation's political correctness)
send him to an indoctrination-camp where they keep on bashing his brain until he finally believes in this 'working for humanity' shit.
Communism doesn't work if you don't force people to obey. Why should it be any different in the Federation?
The elections: how do you know they're really free?
Perhaps you only have the choice between communist a), communist b) and socialist c).

Look at this: In the SW galaxy, under Palp's rule, in the Empire, you can:
go jobbing wherever and whatever you like
you get paid with CREDITS for your work
you can buy personal land/air speeders, houses or other places to live, you can settle virtually wherever you like, you can even buy your personal spacecraft.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-10 03:05pm

1.Yes but the senate was removed of non humans except as attendants -Dark tide 1 - Onslaught.
2.First off I didnt say Palp was racist he could have made Aliens a scape goat just as political descision - its also possible he doesnt like aliens but put up with Maul because he was his best way to power.

1. You are ignoring the fact that they have supposedly evolved - theres no mention of brainwashing at all you are ignoring canon to explain things the way you want to.
Now why would people join the Federation if it has this camps and how did they condition Data?

Also how is that any different that the US can you vote for Communists? also if the Communist state works then maybe no one stands up and says "vote Greed" so they vote in the only people who stand.

I do sometimes wonder if you even read other peoples posts at all.

Yeah also you can Kill people and simply add a few credits to your bar bill.
Buy some slaves.
Get killed for speaking out against your ruler.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-10 03:06pm

Oh I got a Canon quote for you "The EVIL galactic empire" - I think Mr Lucas has settled the argument.

SCVN 2812 · Post by **SCVN 2812** » 2002-07-10 05:47pm

"First Contact united humanity in a way nobody thought possible." -Diana Troi, Star Trek: First Contact

What's the point in having money if you have no use for it? Federation citizens can have all of their basic needs provided for them by the replicator, anything they need to satisfy the pysiological and even some physchological needs they can get from a replicator. Need a new shirt? Replicate it. Thirsty? Just walk over to the replicator and tell it tea, earl grey, hot.

If you want to do something with your life besides just sit around and play with your replicator and I think most people would, despite the overwhelmingly negative opinion of humanity expressed by the anti-Federation arguments, because people do have a desire to do something with their lives or succumb to sheer boredom, then you can do something, join Starfleet, become a freightor captain, run a restaurant, write ect. How exactly you go about doing that is where it gets murky, I think if you provide a service to society and you need something you can't replicate to do it, like a building to run the restaurant in or a freightor to haul cargo in, then it is provided for you possibly on a rent to own type of deal. You work for it and when you have "paid off" your debt you are free to do with it as you please as long as it is legal. Or you can simply contact a private organization operating within or without the Federation and work for them. Obviously Kassidy Yates had to get her ship from somewhere, and since it doesn't seem to be a standard Federation design, she probably worked for somebody until she had acquired enough money to buy it or she worked for the ship itself. Since Kassidy was never imprisoned for owning a starship (she was later imprisoned for misusing it by helping people the Federation considered to be and were, despite their noble purpose, terrorists) obviously it is not illegal for a civilian to own or operate a starship.

John Clark · Post by **John Clark** » 2002-07-10 08:56pm

What do you mean, the Feddies prize freedom? If you don't get paid, why would anybody work. It's not natural. The only way to get people to work without pay is brainwashing or punishment. I think Mike goes over that in one of his essays. I don't know about you, but I think I'll take the Empire's work and you'll get paid policy over being brainwashed by the Feddies

You don't understand how it works that the Feds prize freedom? Hmm. Do you see anyone in slavery? They even grant their MACHINES and COMPUTER SOFTWARE freedom!

Compare that to the Empire, where (supposedly) sentient droids AND EVEN BIOLOGICAL sentient beings are held in slavery AND NO ONE SEES ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT!

And as far as the Empire not being racist, how about misogynistic? Ever seen a FEMALE Imperial officer? Even a female crewman? No? Hmmm!

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-07-10 09:03pm

John Clark wrote: You don't understand how it works that the Feds prize freedom? Hmm. Do you see anyone in slavery? They even grant their MACHINES and COMPUTER SOFTWARE freedom!

Oh really? in "Measure of a man" Data, a machine that was made NOT by starfleet, almost got dismantled. The Doctor was the only hologram with freedom and that was do to the death of their main doctor.

Compare that to the Empire, where (supposedly) sentient droids AND EVEN BIOLOGICAL sentient beings are held in slavery AND NO ONE SEES ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT!

Show a quote about slavery. And droids are just as mistreated as in the NR.

And as far as the Empire not being racist, how about misogynistic? Ever seen a FEMALE Imperial officer? Even a female crewman? No? Hmmm!

How dare he? Thirty-seven thousand men and woman.

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