Yet another Borg KE thread

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Hmm I am of two minds about this.

On the one hand he does have some valid points and provides evidence, he also seems to know what hes talking about for th most part.

Ummm............ WHAT evidence???





He doesn't have evidence why his conjecture is more reasonable than "Borg drones doesn't have KE shield."

[Master of Ossus]

Okay, people. I finally decided to go back and look at that moron's web page on Borg KE shields and even with merely a cursory inspection (not even going back to look up the episodes and movies that he references), I came up with some disturbing inconsistencies that can only be explained away if we assume either that DS is a complete idiot, or that he is dishonest (or both).

For example, he repeatedly harps on the fact that fists, knives, and the like are not bullets, and therefore when we see such weapons injuring or damaging Borg drones, we cannot assume that bullets would harm them. However, he also justifies his claim that the Borg have KE shields that stop bullets by saying that phasers fire nadions (not to be confused with polarons). He then makes no mention of the fact that nadions are almost certainly different from bullets, yet does not justify this assumption. If you say that this is a double standard, you're right. That's exactly what it is.

Also, I really don't see how if bullets on the holodeck (with the safeties off) need to be removed from people, that the bullets can possibly be "holographic" and therefore different from real bullets. Does anyone have that episode of Voyager? Because I could have sworn that they explained in that episode that without the safeties, holographic bullets could kill (thus disproving the crux of DarkStar's argument).

On his website, as is typical of his work, he really brings up no truly good arguments. He says that it is reasonable to assume that they have KE shields that would stop a bullet, but that it is unreasonable to assume that they do not. I also like how, even if his website is correct and Borg drones DO have KE shields, then his opening statement would STILL be wrong. He said himself that Borg shields do not stop things like fists and knives, but then he believes that they would beat the Roman legions how? Here's how he starts the page:

The Rabid Warsie camp of pro-Wars debaters usually offers a quick follow-up with an assertion that Starfleet officers are stupid for not replicating a good Glock and cleaning house when the need arises, or that the Roman Army/Native Americans/(insert other pre-industrial culture here) could defeat the Borg.

This is clearly dishonest. He claims that it is a common tactic of "Rabid Warsies" to say that the Romans could defeat the Borg (thus attempting to make that assertion seem unreasonable), but then his whole page SUPPORTS the conclusion that they could. He acknowledges in at least two places that the Borg KE shields do not stop things like knives (or, by extension, gladiuses), but he makes no mention of the fact that this totally negates a good portion of the point he is trying to prove. If a knife can get through Borg shields, then a gladius would be able to also. This indicates that many pre-industrial societies actually WOULD be able to beat Borg drones. If DarkStar is around, Concession Accepted, DumbShit.

Also note how he refuses to accept that Federation officers are stupid for not replicating weapons, but then he acknowledges that they are stupid for not using holodecks to attack the Borg before then, despite the fact that the Borg have boarded SF ships numerous times. While not totally dishonest (we have never before, I don't think, seen the Borg actually in a holodeck), it does strike me as being somewhat inconsistent with the rest of his points.

Note also how he acknowledges that the KE shields cannot stop either a knife, or a large bulkhead moving quickly. One thus wonders exactly what the shields can stop, or how he comes to the conclusion that while the Borg shields cannot stop knives, they might be able to stop spears. Here's the quote:

there is no evidence in support of the Warsie conjecture that bullets, arrows, or spears would kill Borg drones

Okay. Now, we know that the Borg cannot stop knives. We know that they cannot stop bulkheads. We know that they cannot stop fists. DarkStar is trying to sell us on the notion that the Borg can stop bullets. Now tell me what the fuck would allow a Borg drone to stop a spear when it cannot stop any of these other weapons. All of them are relatively low momentum weapons, the knife is clearly bladed, and the spear should not be substantially different in any way from any of these weapons. How is this possible? What does DarkStar think that the deciding factor is on what the Borg can and cannot stop? He thinks that because they stop nadions, they can stop bullets, but he does not think that because the Borg CANNOT stop knives, fists, and bulkheads they cannot also stop spears? How is this possible? How is this remotely reasonable? Don't the knife and the fist and the bulkhead offer at least circumstantial evidence (he claimed that there was NO evidence) that the Borg shields could not stop a spear?

This is not good debating. This is inconsistent and occasionally outright dishonest claims in favor of a bizarre opinion. It really has no merit. I'm surprised at you, Darkling, that you did not catch some of these yourself when you claimed that you read the page. Since you always bring up such good points, I am quite surprised that you did not catch DumbShit's bad ones. The rest of you should be ashamed of yourselves for not recognizing DarkStar's distortions for either mistakes or dishonesty. And DarkStar, if you're out there, you are not on the verge of being banned because you bring up good points that work against us. No one is thinking of banning Darkling. You are being banned because you are an annoying little piece of crap that continuously proposes stupid and illogical ideas, like the ones I just pointed out. You then refuse to acknowledge defeat and bug the heck out of everybody as they try to turn that one final screw that will make you shut up. Problem is, you never shut up, anyway, despite the number of screws that have now been turned many, many times. Shut up, smarten up, or be banned. Those are your choices. While I am not wholly convinced that you should be banned right now, you're walking on eggshells when you keep making stupid points.

[TheDarkling]

I think the point about the Nadions was that he was saying they are above the threshhold for shield activation (due to very high speed or some such) however it is a Valid concern that you could bring up with him.

The thing with Viyagers bullets has be dealt with, in other instances Bullets disapear once off the holodeck thus it was conluded this was due to the holodeck modifications made by the Hirogen (Darkstar yuo should add that to your site since someone raised it in the thread).

About the spears - I dont really care I once again guess he is saynig that spears are above the activation threshhold - do some ballpark calcs to check his assumption, my interest however was in the likleyhood of Borg KE shields not if the Romans could beat the Borg (since Borg heal rapidly (according to seven) sword wounds would have to be svere to put ne down, meanwhile the Borg begins assimilation).
I also dont think he concludes that the Borg would fdefeat the Romans just that the Borg may have KE shields.

I also believe that the SF stupidity asserted for no KE shields doesnt clash with the statement about not using Holographic weapons since the Borg may be able to adapt to that (they can disrupt holograms afterall).

You seemed to get sidetracked onto the "Romans Vs Borg" idea instead of focussnig upon the true issue "Borg KE shields yes/no?" and this is why we disagree upon that page since I paid the extra assumptions no mind and simlpy stuck to examining his evidence and main theory explaining it.

[Master of Ossus]

I think the point about the Nadions was that he was saying they are above the threshhold for shield activation (due to very high speed or some such) however it is a Valid concern that you could bring up with him.

The thing with Viyagers bullets has be dealt with, in other instances Bullets disapear once off the holodeck thus it was conluded this was due to the holodeck modifications made by the Hirogen (Darkstar yuo should add that to your site since someone raised it in the thread).

About the spears - I dont really care I once again guess he is saynig that spears are above the activation threshhold - do some ballpark calcs to check his assumption, my interest however was in the likleyhood of Borg KE shields not if the Romans could beat the Borg (since Borg heal rapidly (according to seven) sword wounds would have to be svere to put ne down, meanwhile the Borg begins assimilation).
I also dont think he concludes that the Borg would fdefeat the Romans just that the Borg may have KE shields.

I also believe that the SF stupidity asserted for no KE shields doesnt clash with the statement about not using Holographic weapons since the Borg may be able to adapt to that (they can disrupt holograms afterall).

You seemed to get sidetracked onto the "Romans Vs Borg" idea instead of focussnig upon the true issue "Borg KE shields yes/no?" and this is why we disagree upon that page since I paid the extra assumptions no mind and simlpy stuck to examining his evidence and main theory explaining it.

You're right, I did get sidetracked, but I also demonstrated an example of DS's inconsistency and stupidity when I did so. In regards to your comment about how you do not think he thinks that the Borg could beat the Romans, I provided the quote. Here it is, again.

The Rabid Warsie camp of pro-Wars debaters usually offers a quick follow-up with an assertion that Starfleet officers are stupid for not replicating a good Glock and cleaning house when the need arises, or that the Roman Army/Native Americans/(insert other pre-industrial culture here) could defeat the Borg.

It's really hard to think of that as saying anything other than "The Warsies are stupid because they think that the Borg would lose to the Romans." Seriously, look at the quote.

Now, I cannot imagine that a spear will have substantially more KE than a bulkhead, which the Borg shields (DarkStar admits) did not stop. It also should not have substantially more force than a knife (If he was referring to throwing spears, then both are one handed weapons, delivered in a comparable manner with similar muscles. If he was referring to more traditional, two-handed spears, then it still should not have substantially more energy associated with it because such a weapon sacrifices velocity for more control and longer reach. Most of the force behind it is actually applied by the two people moving at one another while using it.) In either case, there is really no justifiable way that the bulkhead and the knife would not be above the activation energy threshold if the spear would be.

I think I have shown fairly well that DarkStar's page is wrong or based on incorrect assumptions. I have also shown that several of his other pages were wrong or based on similar assumptions. In either case, I think that I have shown his points to be more or less invalid, and not enough to save him from banning. While I am still not convinced that he must be banned now, I am certain that he is not adding much to the board with ideas like his Borg KE shield one.

[Ender]

MOO: If I were to guess, I would say he is confusing spears (stabbing weapons) with Javilins (thrown weapons).

His basic premis seems to be this: Thrown physical weapons do no harm. Physical weapons connected to the ground will do harm.

[Master of Ossus]

MOO: If I were to guess, I would say he is confusing spears (stabbing weapons) with Javilins (thrown weapons).

His basic premis seems to be this: Thrown physical weapons do no harm. Physical weapons connected to the ground will do harm.

That is still inconsistent. A javelin will not have substantially more momentum behind it than a knife, if it does at all. Note how similar the motions are when each of them are used. They are practically identical (the same sort of motion expected when baseball is thrown), and the muscles are the same. There should be little additional momentum from a javelin as from a knife strike, swung over the shoulder (which the Borg "shields" did not stop).

I only did this because everyone was saying that the Borg KE shielding was something that he did right. I was trying to demonstrate that he had not done it very well. Clearly the people who said that he was beating the "Rabid Warsies" with that argument were mistaken. He was wrong in several areas of that page.

[TheDarkling]

MOO: You did exactly what I have been pointing uot you attacked the Roman Vs Borg thing that Darkstar put in "as flavour" and assumed that this discredited the substance of his argument.

This is classic case of what happens to darkstars arguments, The Deathstar was another examlpe of this - while some valid points were raised alot of people were running around because Darkstar used the phrase "anti-Genesis effect".

The fact that you have proved that the page doesnt prove the Romans would be defeated by the Borg seems to indicate to you that you have defeated the point of the page and you assume Darkstar is an idiot for putting forward such an argument.
However the page doesnt set out to prove the Romans would be defeated by the Borg (or else more on that point would be discussed), it sets out to prove the Borg may have KE shielding, a point to my mind you barly touched upon and certainly didnt disprove beyong a shadow of doubt.

The only thing that you have shown is that Darkstar can be treated unfairly and the fact that most people on this board would have taken your post as proof absolute of the Bork KE shields defeat because Darkstar has a bad rep around here actually gives Darkstars claims some validity.

[Ender]

MOO: If I were to guess, I would say he is confusing spears (stabbing weapons) with Javilins (thrown weapons).

His basic premis seems to be this: Thrown physical weapons do no harm. Physical weapons connected to the ground will do harm.

That is still inconsistent. A javelin will not have substantially more momentum behind it than a knife, if it does at all. Note how similar the motions are when each of them are used. They are practically identical (the same sort of motion expected when baseball is thrown), and the muscles are the same. There should be little additional momentum from a javelin as from a knife strike, swung over the shoulder (which the Borg "shields" did not stop).

I can't fucking believe I'm doing this, I really can't:

I'm defending DarkStar's position (and will probably do a better job then he could)

Like I said, the key connection seems to be that those examples are all traveling through the air, while the others are grounded. This is similar to the Gungan theatre shields we saw in TPM, and described in the VD (I lack the knowledge in physics to explain the exact mechanics the way others do, so I'll compare it to other things already explained).

[TheDarkling]

Except the no KE theory requires a mechanism that explains mass stupidity on the parts of many individuals or do we simply ignore that?

How about it needs to explain the former drones withholding evidence in some secret plot against the Federation who they seem to now like and aid at every other opportunity?

I havent even seen this tried to be explained while at least Darkstar has put forth a mechanism.

[Master of Ossus]

MOO: You did exactly what I have been pointing uot you attacked the Roman Vs Borg thing that Darkstar put in "as flavour" and assumed that this discredited the substance of his argument.

This is classic case of what happens to darkstars arguments, The Deathstar was another examlpe of this - while some valid points were raised alot of people were running around because Darkstar used the phrase "anti-Genesis effect".

The fact that you have proved that the page doesnt prove the Romans would be defeated by the Borg seems to indicate to you that you have defeated the point of the page and you assume Darkstar is an idiot for putting forward such an argument.
However the page doesnt set out to prove the Romans would be defeated by the Borg (or else more on that point would be discussed), it sets out to prove the Borg may have KE shielding, a point to my mind you barly touched upon and certainly didnt disprove beyong a shadow of doubt.

The only thing that you have shown is that Darkstar can be treated unfairly and the fact that most people on this board would have taken your post as proof absolute of the Bork KE shields defeat because Darkstar has a bad rep around here actually gives Darkstars claims some validity.

That's crap. I also demonstrated an example of his stupidity/dishonesty/both that had NOTHING to do with the Romans. And you know that, if anything, I give him the benefit of the doubt when he pisses someone off. I have protected him several times from others who did jump on him for what I saw as an insufficient reason. To attack me for not protecting him ENOUGH is unfair.

[Master of Ossus]

I can't fucking believe I'm doing this, I really can't:

I'm defending DarkStar's position (and will probably do a better job then he could)

Like I said, the key connection seems to be that those examples are all traveling through the air, while the others are grounded. This is similar to the Gungan theatre shields we saw in TPM, and described in the VD (I lack the knowledge in physics to explain the exact mechanics the way others do, so I'll compare it to other things already explained).

I see what you are saying, but that does not appear to be what DarkStar is claiming. He says that because Borg shields can stop nadion beams (particles), then it can also stop bullets. That is crappy logic, and I have already gone after that particular point, but it also demonstrates that your interpretation of what he is saying is wrong. Consider that the person firing the phaser is rooted to the ground. Now, the phaser that person holds is also attached to the ground, indirectly, through the person. Now, since the "nadion" stream is continuous, it must also be indirectly connected to the ground through the phaser and the person. I see where you're coming from, but I don't see how his page can be interpreted as saying that.

Incidentally, I too have defended DarkStar on occasion. It is unfair not to agree with him when you think he's right, just because of who he is. You were probably wrong this time, Ender, but you did the right thing by questioning me, since you did not believe that what I was saying was correct. You should be commended, Ender.

[Darth Wong]

Except the no KE theory requires a mechanism that explains mass stupidity on the parts of many individuals or do we simply ignore that?

Mass stupidity on the part of the Borg is not an extra "mechanism"; it is an observation. They ignore hostile boarding parties on their ships until they actually attack somebody or blow something up, they never send more than 1 ship at a time to attack Earth, the entire Collective could not devise a countermeasure to Species 8472 after five months of trying, but Voyager's Holo-Doc figures it out in a few hours ... there is no extra "mechanism" here. The Borg are incredibly stupid; almost mindless, in fact.

How about it needs to explain the former drones withholding evidence in some secret plot against the Federation who they seem to now like and aid at every other opportunity?

WTF are you talking about? Who's witholding anything? It's no secret that physical impacts are effective against the Borg, and a projectile differentiator mechanism is not necessary to explain what we've seen, particularly since there is not even the slightest visual or audible hint of shield interaction when a drone is struck with a physical object.

I havent even seen this tried to be explained while at least Darkstar has put forth a mechanism.

A mechanism which is:

1. Unnecessary to explain observation and therefore redundant.
2. Unprecedented in Star Trek
3. Unobserved
4. Unexplained

And you don't see the problem? I can see why you're defending Darkstar; you're his only cheering section and you feel that he is being treated too harshly. But even you admit that he is perfectly willing to throw logic and facts out the window in order to avoid conceding defeat on any point, no matter how large or small, and as I've said before, I don't see how the calibre of discussion on this board is improved by his participation.

If he would just limit himself to one thread or one opponent at a time, I would be happier. But he spreads himself all over the board and then whines that he can't handle it, so we have the twin syndromes of Darkstar polluting every thread but not taking the time to argue any point properly (if he is capable of doing so, which is an unsupported supposition at this point) and then whining about his self-imposed dilution.

[Darth Wong]

PS. Darkling, I have already repeatedly explained that there are perfectly sound technical reasons why projectile shielding is difficult to produce, impractical to deploy, and probably self-defeating when generated from miniaturized body implants. I don't see why one needs to produce false dilemmas in order to claim that there's some reason the Borg must be able to make a drone particle shield which is effective against physical impactors, and given the physics involved, I would point out that even if they could modify their systems to block a handgun bullet (for example), you could overwhelm it by simply using larger or faster projectiles. Newton's third law works, you know.

[Eframepilot]

PS. Darkling, I have already repeatedly explained that there are perfectly sound technical reasons why projectile shielding is difficult to produce, impractical to deploy, and probably self-defeating when generated from miniaturized body implants. I don't see why one needs to produce false dilemmas in order to claim that there's some reason the Borg must be able to make a drone particle shield which is effective against physical impactors, and given the physics involved, I would point out that even if they could modify their systems to block a handgun bullet (for example), you could overwhelm it by simply using larger or faster projectiles. Newton's third law works, you know.

Would you care to explain why Worf's shield is not an example of the simplicity of constructing personal forcefields capable of deflecting bullets again? I'm particularly interesting in hearing your explanation of the nature of "zero-momentum bullets" and how they would affect Worf without the shield.

[Master of Ossus]

Sorry, I just wanted to point out another example of DumbShit's hypocrisy/stupidity/deceit/any combination thereof on that page of his. He argues that Warsies are saying that because Borg KE shields have never been seen, they must not exist. He then says that this is an example of the argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, and stupidly provides a link to a website that defines it.

That link can be found here: http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ig.htm

Of course, when I clicked on the link for the first time I did not realize where it was taking me, but after reading the first paragraph I realized that DarkStar's page was self-contradictory yet again. His whole page is basically saying that because the Borg have never been shown NOT to have KE shields, they must have them. This is (you guessed it) ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE AD IGNORANTIAM FALLACY! DarkStar attacks Warsies for allegedly falling for the same fallacy he falls for on that very PAGE! Think about it. DarkStar's theory essentially has no evidence other than "Because we haven't seen that they DON'T have it, then they must." ALL of his "evidence" says that. His bit about nadions says that. His bit about bullets not having the KE to knock down a Borg. His bit about how the Borg drone killed on the holosuite was killed by a holographic bullet. All of these are bits of evidence he brought up in an effort to keep the POSSIBILITY of Borg KE shields alive. None of these demonsrate that the old theory, about how the Borg lack KE shields, is incorrect, or that his theory explains what we see BETTER.

The following is a DIRECT quote from his page, that demonstrates almost conclusively that he is falling for this fallacy.

there is no evidence in support of the Warsie conjecture that bullets, arrows, or spears would kill Borg drones, because no one has ever fired/used a projectile weapon against the Borg. there is no evidence in support of the Warsie conjecture that bullets, arrows, or spears would kill Borg drones, because no one has ever fired/used a projectile weapon against the Borg.

Translated from idiot, what he just said was, "Since there is no evidence to support the Warsie conjecture, it must be false. After all, we have never seen anyone fire/use a projectile weapon against the Borg."

I can't believe I missed this when I read his site the first time. It's so damn obvious everyone should have spotted it instantly. This is proof beyond any reasonable doubt that his entire page is hypocritical, and is yet another example of his double-standard for himself and others, and for SW and ST.

[Darth Wong]

Would you care to explain why Worf's shield is not an example of the simplicity of constructing personal forcefields capable of deflecting bullets again? I'm particularly interesting in hearing your explanation of the nature of "zero-momentum bullets" and how they would affect Worf without the shield.

Why is an explanation necessary? You act as though there's some problem; Data showed almost no recoil when he fired the gun and the bullet deflected off his little shield without injuring him, so obviously it carries either zero or very low momentum. If it was a momentumless hologram/forcefield combo, it probably reacted with his shield, and if it wasn't there, it would have pushed through his body, causing injuries. If it was a replicated physical bullet, it obviously didn't have much momentum, but it probably still would have pushed through his body, because flesh is not exactly stiffer than steel. Either way, it hardly creates a problem, unless you want there to be a problem.

There is no reason to believe that this shield would have held up against a physical high-momentum, high-velocity projectile. And I would also point out that as small as Worf's belt-buckle shield generator was, it not only had line-of-sight to the projectile but it was undoubtedly far larger than the tiny implants inside a Borg drone's body. And since Data already exceeds their knowledge of computing technology, a few dozen Fed ships can knock off a Borg cube which is vastly larger, and Voyager's holo-doc can reverse-engineer their nanoprobes in a few hours, I'd say that Borg technology is not as much greater than Federation technology as you'd like to think.

But this is starting to go rather off-topic. The original point remains: Darkstar does not debate these topics the way most Trekkie debaters do. He makes sloppy arguments and ignores points, and he uses his habit of taking on 10 people at once as an excuse. I would prefer that he either get lost or stand still, take on one person or one thread at a time, and demonstrate the clean debating skills that he claims he would have if he could only refrain from getting himself into gang-bangs constantly.

[TheDarkling]

Wong: Sign I should have gone straight to sleep but no I watched Back to the future 2 (Good film) and decided to check out the baord one last time.

I assumed you were upto date on the arguments your were comenting on and thus would know of what I was refering to I will now however bring you upto speed on what I meant.

The stupidity would be on the behalf of the SF personel including the following, Picard, The Crew of the Ent-D, SF Tactical Borg Division, Crew of the Ent-E (possible exception due to replicator maybe being offline) and the Crew of starship Voyager.

Withholding evidence Picard, 7 of 9, Echeb and other Borg drones.

Why you ask, well its exlpained better in the arguments about this so I would refer you here but the in a nut shell of it is, SF knows about Borg tech and they can make projectile weapons, why in blue hell dont they? heres the need for youi extra mechanism.

Why dnot the former Drones explain this huge flaw in the Borg (7 often helps in the Borg show downs and Voyagers crew has access to extensive field notes made by the Hansen (Voys crew often looked for weaknesses yet somehow missed this HUGE flaw) this also needs explaining.

Also explain why the Borg have never assimilated a race with knowledge of personal forcefileds (the feds have access to it explain why they are unique - if the Borg didnt get this knowledge from the Feds which seems very possible).

You state that this tech has never been seen once again the debate shows evidence of this kind of tech (Kivas Fajoh emlpoyed a force field of some nature but this example is not 100% applicable because the tech was data only, The Feds groundtroops employ Personal Forcefileds (Fed tech combines energy and KE shielding however forcefileds always block matter since forcefileds are the brig type setup security fields, the selctive KE fields have also been shown (the ent-d's shuttle bay)).
Thus tech of this nature has been seen and does exist its just a case of if the Borg deploy it.

I have also given many other otions to explain you objections over the practicle nature of personal forcefileds (The Feds use them and Fed shield tech plus Kivas's personal force field both disregard Newtonian physics to some degree) I have also addressed you problem with the implants and it was never rebutted.

If you have any more questions please read the debates so far (the two threads plus DS's page) and hopefully they have been answered.

MOO: He isnt saying since the Borg dont show KE shields they must have them, hes saying since we havent seen when they should be deployed we dont know that they dont have them.
He then goes on to prove conjecture for the shields is better than the conjecture against the shield (since the statement above shows the anti shield argument to be conjecture).
Therefore once again you havent proved the argument wrong (I dont care about his general standing since I try to be objective and simply look at the evidence and compare it to his theory).

Now either Im taking his statements to mean better things than which they do (doesnt matter for the debate since my interpretation of what he says fits the facts - so I basically create my own theory based upon the evidence put forth) or you are taking his statements to mean the worst possible thing (and thus get caught up in the messanger instead of the message) either way I dont see the point.
If he is as bad as you think (and I dont think he is but I may just be being positive) then just look at the evidence and see if you agree with his theory if not then state why not instead of attacking little nits look at the evidence and see if his theory is correct if not explain why not and supply a better theory.

[Darth Wong]

I assumed you were upto date on the arguments your were comenting on and thus would know of what I was refering to I will now however bring you upto speed on what I meant.

I haven't been following that closely. While this may surprise some people, I actually spend much more time in the Off-Topic and Science/Morality forums than I do here. My comments about Darkstar's shitty debating tactics are based largely on that fact that every thread seems to be him and his opponents blasting away at each other, and his ridiculous Deathstar argument, which I did follow closely.

nut shell of it is, SF knows about Borg tech and they can make projectile weapons, why in blue hell dont they? heres the need for youi extra mechanism.

Ah, you're talking about Federation stupidity rather than Borg stupidity. I see. Point taken; I should have described the many observed examples of incredible Federation ground-weapon stupidity too. Very well:

1. Siege of AR-588: ground unit sent down to hold enemy territory without any mortars, NBC equipment, squad-level support weapons of any kind, or dedicated air support. Left there for six months and after being resupplied, it still had no mortars, NBC equipment, squad-level support weapons of any kind, or dedicated air support. Regardless of whether this was a deliberate supply omission or a simple absence of such equipment in their ground combat inventory, it is mindlessly stupid either way. Moreover, they had no spotters with binoculars tracking Jem'Hadar movements or providing early warning of approach, except for a single team they sent out to take a "snapshot" of JH numbers/location and then return.
2. Nor the Battle to the Strong (I hope I remembered the episode name correctly). Despite numerous armed ground troops in attendance who could have done the job, a medical doctor is sent out to retrieve a crucial piece of equipment on his own, thus exposing key personnel to enemy fire for no good reason. And when he left, we could see that no one was guarding the rear entrance he used! Worse yet, we still saw no heavy ground weapons, and we learned that the "hoppers" they use for troop deployment are so defenseless that instead of providing fire support for ground troops, they need ground troops to provide fire support for them!
3. Despite the fact that cloaked ships can easily be tracked by passive infrared scanning of their exhaust plasma (as demonstrated in ST6), they never seem to think of this trick (hell, even in ST6, they took a roundabout method of locating the ship, even though the mechanism they used would have easily lent itself to passive infrared scanning). This is technically starship combat rather than ground combat, but the pattern of not deploying appropriate technologies is important.

And now, let's look at real life.

• 1941. Hitler refuses to send winter equipment to his troops in Russia because it will lower their morale to know that they're in for the long haul. Of course, it's even worse for their morale to die of frostbite and watch their tank turrets freeze in place, but Hitler doesn't care.
• US admiralty's stubborn resistance to a carrier-centric philosophy of naval warfare before Pearl Harbour, even though numerous tests and live-warfare examples proved the validity of the approach, many years before Pearl Harbour finally changed their minds.
• The Maginot line. 'Nuff said.

Sorry, but human stupidity is hardly a hypothesis that one needs to defend as if it is absurd or unlikely. Deal with it. The Federation never experienced serious problems from Borg infiltration attempts until STFC, because 99% of Federation casualties against the Borg have come from starship combat. So why are they going to spend huge amounts of money training and outfitting their entire fleet with large numbers of unfamiliar weapons in order to deal with a situation that is not likely to occur? Fed ships learned how to block Borg transporters with their shields by the time of STFC, so why would they consider it a big issue worth all of that expenditure in resources and time, particularly since a Fed ship without shields against the Borg is toast anyway?

No, not only is human stupidity a seriously underestimated factor, but you have very seriously exaggerated the level of stupidity in the Federation's actions. It is nowhere near as irrational as you claim for the Federation not to have equipped their troops with projectile weapons since the key to stopping the Borg is stopping their starships, and a mass boarding/assimilation attack is not their typical modus operandi.

Why dnot the former Drones explain this huge flaw in the Borg (7 often helps in the Borg show downs and Voyagers crew has access to extensive field notes made by the Hansen (Voys crew often looked for weaknesses yet somehow missed this HUGE flaw) this also needs explaining.

You are presuming that it is not known, even though Picard obviously knew about it and took action based on that knowledge. Does he need to think about the theory of how holographic bullets will interact with Borg shields? Of course not; he knows it will work because he has inside knowledge and he knows that Borg shields don't stop anything which exerts significant physical force.

Also explain why the Borg have never assimilated a race with knowledge of personal forcefileds (the feds have access to it explain why they are unique - if the Borg didnt get this knowledge from the Feds which seems very possible).

More false dilemmas. You act as though it is impossible for the Borg to have assimilated a race with personal forcefield technology and not incorporate that technology onto their drones. Their drones don't come standard with ranged weapons either or bulletproof body armour either; does that mean they've never assimilated a race with ranged weapons or bulletproof body armour? Of course not. There may be many limitations forcing their hand here, such as cost (even the Borg must account for resources, and divide them in a manner they deem optimal), bulk (a personal forcefield is not necessarily small enough to build into an implant), technical specifics (a personal forcefield may not work well when it is embedded in body implants), etc.

You state that this tech has never been seen once again the debate shows evidence of this kind of tech (Kivas Fajoh emlpoyed a force field of some nature but this example is not 100% applicable because the tech was data only, The Feds groundtroops employ Personal Forcefileds (Fed tech combines energy and KE shielding however forcefileds always block matter since forcefileds are the brig type setup security fields, the selctive KE fields have also been shown (the ent-d's shuttle bay)).

For the umpteenth time, these were not forcefields being projected through flesh by miniscule implants. Are you being deliberately dense or something?

I have also given many other otions to explain you objections over the practicle nature of personal forcefileds (The Feds use them and Fed shield tech plus Kivas's personal force field both disregard Newtonian physics to some degree)

No, they don't. Provide evidence that Fed shields disregard the physical laws which cause reaction force to exist. You are simply looking for facile manifestations of that force which fit into your simplistic interpretation of events and when you don't see them, you leap to the conclusion that physical laws are being ignored. Does it ever occur to you that Data's sudden stop was due to a reaction in his own motor controls rather than a magic reaction force-ignoring forcefield system? To put it bluntly, since we know the actor Brent Spiner performed the move himself rather than any CGI trick, it's obvious that even the most detailed examination of the footage cannot possibly lead to the conclusion that any physical laws were ignored (unless you think Brent Spiner is non-Newtonian).

I have also addressed you problem with the implants and it was never rebutted.

Because quite frankly, I wrote it off as a knee-jerk reply. You claimed that her exoskeleton was not necessarily removed because we've never seen her nude, but her bodysuit would easily show any of that exoskeletal hardware if it was still present. Besides, as I said, I actually don't spend that much time in this forum. When the time comes to refute Darkstar's arguments, I'll do it right.

[Master of Ossus]

MOO: He isnt saying since the Borg dont show KE shields they must have them, hes saying since we havent seen when they should be deployed we dont know that they dont have them.
He then goes on to prove conjecture for the shields is better than the conjecture against the shield (since the statement above shows the anti shield argument to be conjecture).
Therefore once again you havent proved the argument wrong (I dont care about his general standing since I try to be objective and simply look at the evidence and compare it to his theory).

Uhhh... Darkling, where is the proof of which you speak? Haven't I beaten his primary point, which was that phasers are particle weapons and the Borg can stop them (or at least cast serious doubt over the statement's validity)?

If he is as bad as you think (and I dont think he is but I may just be being positive) then just look at the evidence and see if you agree with his theory if not then state why not instead of attacking little nits look at the evidence and see if his theory is correct if not explain why not and supply a better theory.

On the contrary, his biggest and most important point was about the Borg being able to block particle weapons (phasers). That is not a nitpick. I really don't want to watch all those episodes and movies that he talked about, but I think that his double-standard alone should cast serious doubts on his theory.

[Crayz9000]

Because quite frankly, I wrote it off as a knee-jerk reply. You claimed that her exoskeleton was not necessarily removed because we've never seen her nude, but her bodysuit would easily show any of that exoskeletal hardware if it was still present.

Slightly off the topic...

I don't think that any remotely warm-blooded males here would object to seeing her nude.

[Lord Poe]

Ah, you're talking about Federation stupidity rather than Borg stupidity. I see. Point taken; I should have described the many observed examples of incredible Federation ground-weapon stupidity too. Very well:

[snip]

Don't forget my favorite: "The Battle". If Data and co. would have remembered to use the Stargazer's prefix code, there wouldn't have been any need to even swat any "Picard Maneuver".

I have also addressed you problem with the implants and it was never rebutted.

Because quite frankly, I wrote it off as a knee-jerk reply. You claimed that her exoskeleton was not necessarily removed because we've never seen her nude, but her bodysuit would easily show any of that exoskeletal hardware if it was still present.

Actually, we have seen Seven nude, twice. In VGR's "Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy" the HoloDoc is having a daydream of painting her nude as she poses. Janeway, Kim and Torres are able to "watch" these daydreams on the holodeck. We see a good portion of Seven's upper torso to the swell of her breasts, a good portion of her back, and her legs. No other Borg implants.

In "Q2" Q's son strips Seven, and we see her entire back to just above the swell of her hips. No other implants.

So, unless these alleged implants are in her vaginal cavity, or situated between her asscheeks, I'd say its a fair bet she doesn't have any more. Implants on her nipples would be quite apparent, BTW.

[TheDarkling]

MOO: The thing with Nadions being particals wa\snty even in the thread to late on (if it ever arrived there) it was in no way his main point he just showibng tat Borg shields do stop mor ethan pure energy it was however not his main point.

Darth Wong: You say that Picard knows how the Borg operate which we agree upon, however this fits with the idea that the hologrpahic bullets will work where the normal bullets wont.
Now if Picard thinks Guns will work why not have they replicted (even if main power was off and this prevented replicators Feds have portable replicators as do shuttles either of these options was open yet it wasnt taken, the point still stands)
On the same note 7 knows how the Borg operate and Voyager faced the drones on many occassion yet they werent deployed and here there was a huge incentive also before you tell me they are strapped for resources so much they cant make guns remember they built at least one new shuttle from scratch.

It also requires us to believe that SF hadnt made projectile weapons come place against the Borg (they have built a projectile gun for use in situations where phasers dont work but instead phaser were modified) or at least briefed people about this (So the Voyager crew should know as should PIcard as od Descent - why didnt he use Guns there? especialluy since you credit him with coming up with a plan based upon Borg weakness why didnt he use Guns here??).
Yet that doesnt happen even though SF has a division of R&D working on the Borg problem.

Onto the implants thing, I did give you many other options apart from she still had exoskeleton fixtures such as the shield systems being seperate or that it isnt deployed on all drones (maybe only Tac drones since we both agree the Borg dont mind losses its possible they hold the tech ni reserve due to cost cutting so to speak).

I would describe Brent Spiner as non netnoian but since Kivas's device threw him accross a room and his device didnt seem to respond in any way (move) yes it was somewhat larger than an implant but from whaty I recall it was easily smnall enough to fit on an exoskeleton (or fo that matter inside the chest).
We also know that SF packs these Personal Forcefileds so that must mean that the technology can be deployed on a person (it probably acts in a Non-Newtonian way like other ST tech).

You also admit to the fact that the Borg probably have the tech but dont deploy it as a matter of course, however if they were going up against an enemy with projectile weapons they could easily upgrade drones with such a shield and send them out.
With the above you basically agree with me since I simply believe the Borg have the tech on hand and could easily get drones to use it thus projectile weapons wouldnt be a great advantage against them.

You idea about cost cutting (which I already expressed on the opther thread) may be valid since it may be too costly in energy for normal drones to have them, One how had huge amounts of power did employ a physical shield (infact his shield could protect him from pressure that a Borg sphere could not survive - since he can deploy a physical shield it is obviously possible for the borg to build such a device in either implant form or in the exoskeleton (and im not saying because he had it the Borg have it what im saying is that making an implant/exoskeleton based force field emitter is possible at some point but this may be due to future tech).

[2000AD]

OK can we get back on topic please? If you want to explain Borg KE shielding can you go to the relevant topic.

Also, has someone found a way of voting more than once as i can't believe that 6 people think that Darkstar contributes intelligent analysis.

[TheDarkling]

Hey I didnt want to bring it up here but questions were asked so I had to point out what was going no besides Darth Wong engaged in it so I think thats the official seal of approval.

Hmm 6 people giving the slant of the poll that isnt bad (especially since he is supposedly so dispised), I wonder if he voted for himself?

I would vote but there isnt a more middle ground answer so my vote will remain uncast.

[Ender]

I see what you are saying, but that does not appear to be what DarkStar is claiming. He says that because Borg shields can stop nadion beams (particles), then it can also stop bullets. That is crappy logic, and I have already gone after that particular point, but it also demonstrates that your interpretation of what he is saying is wrong. Consider that the person firing the phaser is rooted to the ground. Now, the phaser that person holds is also attached to the ground, indirectly, through the person. Now, since the "nadion" stream is continuous, it must also be indirectly connected to the ground through the phaser and the person. I see where you're coming from, but I don't see how his page can be interpreted as saying that.

I would theorize that that is because the nadion stream carries with it a high amount of energy, something the shields are designed against. Raw nadions against solid matter are not that effective, but against matter that has been broken down via an energy beam or the energy release of a torp (IE TDIC) they appear to be very effective.

Incidentally, I too have defended DarkStar on occasion. It is unfair not to agree with him when you think he's right, just because of who he is. You were probably wrong this time, Ender, but you did the right thing by questioning me, since you did not believe that what I was saying was correct. You should be commended, Ender.

Thanks, I think