Canon source for C(lightspeed) in Trek?

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2002-09-09 06:42pm

If we are to accept visuals in Trek as undisputed canon, this in turn should mean that if we witness the speed of light travelling known or estimated distances, the speed of light, whatever it may be, has been established in the Trek universe?

In ST: "Generations", Picard witnesses the destruction of a star at the hand of a trilithium torpedo. Ignoring travelling time of the torpedo itself, we'll asssume it instantly hit the star and started it's effects. We know Picard was on a Earth-like planet(ie: 1 G gravity, breathable atmosphere, etc), therefore I think it stands to reason the planet was a similar distance from the sun(8 light minutes). To be conservative, we can even say it was only half the distance Earth is(4 light minutes), though I highly doubt a planet with the specified characteristics would be even slightly habitable. Also, we'll assume Picard actually waited two minutes before he saw anything, though if I recall correctly, he saw the effects within seconds.

So I think conservatively thinking we have:
1) A Earth sized planet 4 light minutes away from the star(highly unlikely)
2) A two minute wait(completely unsupported) and being able to witness the effects on the star visually(canonly shown).

Therefore, using these extremly unrealistic figures, the speed of light witnessed was twice as fast as the speed of light in our universe?

VF5SS · Post by **VF5SS** » 2002-09-09 06:55pm

Don't let the Trekkies figure that out or they'll be claiming that all warp is twice that of everything listed

Zoink · Post by **Zoink** » 2002-09-09 06:55pm

The habital zone of a smaller star will be closer, so being something other than 8 minutes is not unreasonable. However, I'm not sure that any star exists that would allow for the short time interval you describe.

In the trilithium episode was there any visual "cuts", like changing camera angles, switching to outside shots, etc. ? These be used to explain missing time (or otherwise hide Berman & Bragga's mistakes).

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2002-09-09 06:59pm

VF5SS wrote:Don't let the Trekkies figure that out or they'll be claiming that all warp is twice that of everything listed

I'm incredibly curious to see if anyone would actually contradict this idea by stating the visual isn't relevent do to special effects slipup. The can of worms it would open up...LOL

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-09-09 07:01pm

Well, we can assume that the physical laws that govern the universe are vastly different in the ST universe, which ultimately leads us to question ALL the physical laws of the ST universe, meaning that no calcs can be derived from visuals.

The alternative is to assume that the physical laws are the same. Therefore, we need to find a way to make that instance jive with reality (since we're assuming reality to be static), or discard the event as evidence. Since I despise the latter option, I would offer that Soran's missile had some technobabble device that allowed for the FTL supernova. Could it be that Soran's weapon was unique not in that it caused a star to go supernova... but because it caused it to create a subspace shockwave?

Yes, I know, I hate using terms like "subspace shockwave", but, really... the alternatives are to assume a different set of physical laws, or to discard the event entirely.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2002-09-09 07:08pm

Special Relativity.

The Trilithium device takes only a few sconds to travel from the planet to the star, therefore it must be travelling at a speed greater than c. It's Lorentz-factor is therefore a negative. The device has travelled back in time as it travels to the star, hit it BEFORE it was actually fired, the light of the star's death has propagated at normal c back to the planet just in time for Picard to see it a few seconds after the device was fired.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2002-09-09 07:10pm

SPOOFE wrote:Well, we can assume that the physical laws that govern the universe are vastly different in the ST universe, which ultimately leads us to question ALL the physical laws of the ST universe, meaning that no calcs can be derived from visuals.

MAWAHH! To quote: "So it is written! So it shall be done!"

j/k

[/quote]
The alternative is to assume that the physical laws are the same. Therefore, we need to find a way to make that instance jive with reality (since we're assuming reality to be static), or discard the event as evidence. Since I despise the latter option, I would offer that Soran's missile had some technobabble device that allowed for the FTL supernova.
[/quote]

In this instance we'd have to figure out how Soron's torpedo altered the speed of light to reach the planet faster. Sounds extremely difficult to me...

Could it be that Soran's weapon was unique not in that it caused a star to go supernova... but because it caused it to create a subspace shockwave?

But does a subspace shockwave change the speed of light? We were apparently seeing the surface of the star on the planet after all, not a shockwave.

Yes, I know, I hate using terms like "subspace shockwave", but, really... the alternatives are to assume a different set of physical laws, or to discard the event entirely.

Again, one of the reasons I started this thread is to see if any people here would actually try to discard this visual evidence, which I said I think would open up an intersting can of worms.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2002-09-09 07:13pm

Vendetta wrote:Special Relativity.

The Trilithium device takes only a few sconds to travel from the planet to the star, therefore it must be travelling at a speed greater than c. It's Lorentz-factor is therefore a negative. The device has travelled back in time as it travels to the star, hit it BEFORE it was actually fired, the light of the star's death has propagated at normal c back to the planet just in time for Picard to see it a few seconds after the device was fired.

However, Trek ships routinely travel FTL, yet they don't seem to experience the significant time shift you're implying unless they enter time warp.

Worf did say the torpedo would take between 10-15 seconds to hit the star...if that has any significance...

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-09-09 07:20pm

Vendetta wrote:Special Relativity.

The Trilithium device takes only a few sconds to travel from the planet to the star, therefore it must be travelling at a speed greater than c. It's Lorentz-factor is therefore a negative. The device has travelled back in time as it travels to the star, hit it BEFORE it was actually fired, the light of the star's death has propagated at normal c back to the planet just in time for Picard to see it a few seconds after the device was fired.

Impossible. There are 2 ways for the missle to go FTL here.

1. Warpdrive, Transwarp, slipstream, etc. They never show any of the effects you claim.

2. Accelerating to FTL. Even more impossible. To get to SoL you'd need infinite energy. And you'd probably hit a gram of space dust at .999999c and explode. And to get FTL you'd need MORE then infinite energy.

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2002-09-09 07:21pm

Yes, I know, I hate using terms like "subspace shockwave", but, really... the alternatives are to assume a different set of physical laws, or to discard the event entirely.

The latter should be an option with the airheads who write ST, especially Voyager.

I.e. Voyager and company encounter an anomly which has an abandoned mars exploration space craft inside (October 19, 2032 supposedly launched). In the craft they find the log of this long lost astronaut who says something to the effect, "We'll have to make room on the periodic table for these new elements."

The problem? The periodic table is *full*, elements get a slot based on the number of protons and we have everything from 1 - 112. 113 and up are going to be *FAR* too short lived to last centuries (the period of time between "openings" of this anomoly). Now this is not some dumbass out of SF Academy ... its a NASA astronaut from a mere 30 years in the future, you'd think he'd know the basics of the periodic table.

Why is it so FRIKKING hard to get basic science right? The periodic table is not something we add to lightly. And anything we do add to it is not going to stick around for appreciable lengths of time.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2002-09-09 07:25pm

Robert Walper wrote: However, Trek ships routinely travel FTL, yet they don't seem to experience the significant time shift you're implying unless they enter time warp.

Worf did say the torpedo would take between 10-15 seconds to hit the star...if that has any significance...

This is true, but ships are large devices designed to carry people, ariving before you'd left would be inconvenient.

It's most likely ships have equipment which allows them to circumvent the time dilation effects that Einstien tells them they should be experiencing (they must have, really, or they'd forever be arriving before they set off, and getting back to the future would be pretty hard, the equation to calclate rate of time passage isn't a vector equation, after all), and Soran didn't have the time or inclination to fit such a device to his weapon. (he's a pretty impatient guy, he doesn't want to fire then wait ten minutes for anything to happen)

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-09-09 07:33pm

These are people who think an Event Horizon can be cracked, you can even run into a black hole without getting spagetified, and "warp core" particles will magically go through this "crack"

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-09 07:38pm

Slightly off topic but related to C - over at space battles a few weeks ago they had a thread showing examples of impulse going FTL - figure that one out.

Its here http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... d=34440&s=

A low end calc puts impulse at 3C.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2002-09-09 07:39pm

[quote="Grand Admiral Thrawn"]

Impossible. There are 2 ways for the missle to go FTL here.

1. Warpdrive, Transwarp, slipstream, etc. They never show any of the effects you claim.

Given that Special Relativity is an easily proven theorem, (if you measure the speed of light, no matter how fast and in what direction you're going relative to the ray, you ALWAYS get c, if you measure any other object, you get the difference between it's speed and yours, the ly explanation for this is that TIME is diiferent if you speed up) and given that ships travelling faster than c do not arrive before they left (unless someone's doing a daft time travel episode), they must be capable of circumventing SR.

The question is, is that an intrinsic propety of the means of breaking c or not. This instance could suggest that no, it isn't, since the only acceptable theorem which explains what happens within the realms of known physical laws IS Special Relativity.

Soran's device must, to do what it appeared to do, have experienced relativistic time dilation.

Grand Admiral Thrawn · Post by **Grand Admiral Thrawn** » 2002-09-09 07:39pm

TheDarkling wrote:Slightly off topic but related to C - over at space battles a few weeks ago they had a thread showing examples of impulse going FTL - figure that one out.

Its here http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... d=34440&s=

A low end calc puts impulse at 3C.

More stupidity from B&B.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2002-09-09 07:42pm

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:These are people who think an Event Horizon can be cracked, you can even run into a black hole without getting spagetified, and "warp core" particles will magically go through this "crack"

Yes. Fortunately we have Einstein around to paint over the cracks they make in the space-time coninuum. (except when they're doing a Time Travel episode. Whenever someone does a Time Travel story, they should have one of their fingers cut off, because you KNOW they're going to be confusing and crap...)

Raxmei · Post by **Raxmei** » 2002-09-09 08:13pm

If C in Trek really were twice what it should be, then Trek antimatter would be four times as powerful as ours. The common 15kg warhead they say photorps have would then have an ideal yield of 256 megatons (our universe).

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-09-10 01:55am

MAWAHH! To quote: "So it is written! So it shall be done!" j/k

Excellent. So a GCS has a maximum reactor output of 1 terawatt.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-09-10 10:20am

SPOOFE wrote:
MAWAHH! To quote: "So it is written! So it shall be done!" j/k
Excellent. So a GCS has a maximum reactor output of 1 terawatt.

and voyager has a few 1000 times that - weird that they suped it up that much

.

Nathan F · Post by **Nathan F** » 2002-09-10 11:01am

It could have been that they just cut out the footage and made the time span shorter for editing reasons or just to shorten the film possibly.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-09-10 02:04pm

TheDarkling wrote:Slightly off topic but related to C - over at space battles a few weeks ago they had a thread showing examples of impulse going FTL - figure that one out.

Its here http://kier.3dfrontier.com/forums/showt ... d=34440&s=

A low end calc puts impulse at 3C.

Gee, smarty pants galore over there I see.
Voyager, Drive I think the ep. name was, they are going to do a race, sublight only, wich meant only impulse.
That settles it pretty nicely.

Vendetta · Post by **Vendetta** » 2002-09-10 02:12pm

NF_Utvol wrote:It could have been that they just cut out the footage and made the time span shorter for editing reasons or just to shorten the film possibly.

Because I'm nice, I'll point out why that doesn't work, and save you future strife.

If you want to argue between two completely unrelated things, you have to use a common set of rules, (scientific reality). To do that, you have to work from the assumption that what ou see in the shows is real.

Unless there's a good reason to show that ime's passed off camera, you can't say that it has, and in this case, you can't say that, since throughout the whole event, Picard stands stock still watching. If it was off-camera, he's been a statue for about five minutes, unlikely.