new Trekkie tactics

[YT300000]

When ICS became canon a few days ago, many rabid vs. Trekkies saw that they were about to be squashed. So, some of them (mostly on SB.com) took up a new strategy.
1. Make sure the Federation fights the NJO-era Imperial Remnant, less resources, ships, soldiers, no fanatical leader, or one who is a tactical genius.
2. Put the Federation in the year 2380 (~2 years after Voyager returned to the Alpha Quadrant).

They claim the Federation would crush the Empire because of:
1. More efficient and very small phase cloaks (from old Janeway's shuttle)
2. Ablative armour
3. Transphasic torpedoes.

Here are my rebuttals:

1. The 20-year in the future cloak from old Janeway's shuttle was never installed on Voyager.
2. In Endgame, Voyager took a barrage roughly the size of the one that collapsed E-D's sheilds (BoBW I think), which is ~ 90 MT. Since it only brought the armour down to 97%, that means the full capacity of the armour is ~ 2.97 GT. Since a MTL is ~ 22 GT, well the armour won't help much.
3. In FC, a Borg sphere was annihilated by 4 quantum torps. A max of 256 MT could hit the sphere (no shaped charges). Since a sphere is 450 metres across and a cube is 3 km across, the lower limit a cube can take is ~ 1.7066666666 GT. The number is most likely quite a bit higher. That means the absolute min yield of a Transphasic torp is ~ 1.71 GT. Someone else will have to figure out the max yield.
4. There is no way that the Federation, with their manufacturing/refit capabilities could put all of this new technology on all of their 1000s of ships in two years, let alone reverse-engineer the tech.

[Alyeska]

A grand total of two trekkies makes for a resistance group? You need to lay off the crack. Everyone and their mother was slapping Kallin and DarkStar silly over the ICS issue.

[YT300000]

A grand total of two trekkies makes for a resistance group? You need to lay off the crack. Everyone and their mother was slapping Kallin and DarkStar silly over the ICS issue.

Did I say it was a resistance group? I merely said that *some* vs. Trekkies were taking this approach. Actually according to some of my friends, Transphasic torps could phase out of existence and then phase back into existence inside an enemy ship, then blowing up. Is this true?

[Admiral Johnason]

I haven't read any of the NJO books, so what's ICS?

[Alyeska]

A grand total of two trekkies makes for a resistance group? You need to lay off the crack. Everyone and their mother was slapping Kallin and DarkStar silly over the ICS issue.

Did I say it was a resistance group? I merely said that *some* vs. Trekkies were taking this approach. Actually according to some of my friends, Transphasic torps could phase out of existence and then phase back into existence inside an enemy ship, then blowing up. Is this true?

Probably not. We know that the Transphasic torpedoes had to wear down the shields of the Transwarp hub. Kinda rules out the phasing argument.

[Admiral Johnason]

A grand total of two trekkies makes for a resistance group? You need to lay off the crack. Everyone and their mother was slapping Kallin and DarkStar silly over the ICS issue.

Did I say it was a resistance group? I merely said that *some* vs. Trekkies were taking this approach. Actually according to some of my friends, Transphasic torps could phase out of existence and then phase back into existence inside an enemy ship, then blowing up. Is this true?

Probably not. We know that the Transphasic torpedoes had to wear down the shields of the Transwarp hub. Kinda rules out the phasing argument.

It also seems wasteful to put a phase cloak on a torpeado when a shuttle or other small craft could put it to better use.

[neoolong]

I haven't read any of the NJO books, so what's ICS?

It isn't part of NJO. The ICS is the Incredible Cross-Sections line of books that give details on the technology of the SW movies.

[Admiral Johnason]

I haven't read any of the NJO books, so what's ICS?

It isn't part of NJO. The ICS is the Incredible Cross-Sections line of books that give details on the technology of the SW movies.

Oh. I have some of those.

Then what is the Trekkie arguement. These books, if anything, bolster our posistion and prove SW is better yet again in terms of strength of ships.

[PainRack]

I haven't read any of the NJO books, so what's ICS?

It isn't part of NJO. The ICS is the Incredible Cross-Sections line of books that give details on the technology of the SW movies.

Oh. I have some of those.

Then what is the Trekkie arguement. These books, if anything, bolster our posistion and prove SW is better yet again in terms of strength of ships.

They say,ICS isn't canon,official or is just wrong.

[SirNitram]

Hell, NJO gives us even better ships. LY ranges, percentage-C combat, lightspeed TL's.. Of course, they just want the lesser numbers of ships from the Remnant, not the rest.

[Darth Servo]

3. In FC, a Borg sphere was annihilated by 4 quantum torps. A max of 256 MT could hit the sphere (no shaped charges). Since a sphere is 450 metres across and a cube is 3 km across, the lower limit a cube can take is ~ 1.7066666666 GT. The number is most likely quite a bit higher. That means the absolute min yield of a Transphasic torp is ~ 1.71 GT. Someone else will have to figure out the max yield.

Assuming the borg ships were totally destroyed through sheer energy output of the weapon and not some critical reactor exploding inside like warp cores are know to do.

[Solauren]

3. In FC, a Borg sphere was annihilated by 4 quantum torps. A max of 256 MT could hit the sphere (no shaped charges). Since a sphere is 450 metres across and a cube is 3 km across, the lower limit a cube can take is ~ 1.7066666666 GT. The number is most likely quite a bit higher. That means the absolute min yield of a Transphasic torp is ~ 1.71 GT. Someone else will have to figure out the max yield.

Assuming the borg ships were totally destroyed through sheer energy output of the weapon and not some critical reactor exploding inside like warp cores are know to do.

The best theory's I have seen regarding how Transphasic Torpedoes work are
1)- They have some kind of shield system on them. Really weak shields, since they use a Techie trick to get through
The torpedoes have a number of shields on them (say 3) that are constantly changing frequencies at a very high rate of speed. When they hit another ships shields, one of the torpedoes shields matches the enemies shield frequency, and they pass through and hit the enemy ship.
(This is close to what I believe the going theory is on how Trek weapons pass out of there own shields)

2)- They have a kinda of cloaking system on them like the Pegaus phase cloak to get through enemy ship shields and armor. They then de-phase and blow up.

I actually think it's a combination of the two. Layered tactics to confuse the Borg. Beyond that, they would just be normal Q.Torps

After all, we've seen what happens if a Photon Torpedoe explodes near a power conduit or whatever on a Borg ship (Voyager episode, don't remember name, they were looking to steal a transwarp coil. Seven briefly went back to the collective)

Now, as to the new trekkie tactics (I have seen others going, 'Imperial Remnant' vs Janeway future tech equipped fleet

Even against the Remant, they are still screwed. 250 Star Destroyers is still a lot of firepower by Trek standards. (What is that, like 200 Borg cubes or more?)


However, it should be pointed out, two years is more then enough time to equipped the entire Fededation fleet with Transphasic Torpedoes and Ablative Armor Generators. after all, Voyager did it without a space dock in a few hours/days.

Considering the size of the generators, I don't think Future Janeway brought hem back in her cargo hold.

This means they are fairly easy to make. They LOOK like they are some sort of advanced replicator system beyond "TNG" replicators. They could convert any matter into other matter (in that case, boy, did a lot of the Federations problems get solved), or else Voyager mines and kept along of spare hull components. (That's not unreasonable either, given the number of shuttles they lost and had to rebuild, it's like 12 or so)

Even then however, that still wouldn't make a huge difference.

[Enforcer Talen]

I think 250 sds are something like 1,000,000 borg cubes.

one sd can tak on 4k cubes, ja?

[JodoForce]

Even against the Remant, they are still screwed. 250 Star Destroyers is still a lot of firepower by Trek standards. (What is that, like 200 Borg cubes or more?)

Are you nuts? An SD eats cubes for breakfast.

[Darth Servo]

The best theory's I have seen regarding how Transphasic Torpedoes work are
1)- They have some kind of shield system on them. Really weak shields, since they use a Techie trick to get through
The torpedoes have a number of shields on them (say 3) that are constantly changing frequencies at a very high rate of speed. When they hit another ships shields, one of the torpedoes shields matches the enemies shield frequency, and they pass through and hit the enemy ship.
(This is close to what I believe the going theory is on how Trek weapons pass out of there own shields)

Or the TPT's shields quickly changes its frequency. Which would mean it wouldn't work against frequency independent shields like those in SW.

2)- They have a kinda of cloaking system on them like the Pegaus phase cloak to get through enemy ship shields and armor. They then de-phase and blow up.

Can we have some evidence for this capability, especially when good old fashioned armor piercing torps will perform this function just as well? IF they "phased" somehow, they would be invisible and the frequency shield in part one of your post would be unnecessary.

Even against the Remant, they are still screwed. 250 Star Destroyers is still a lot of firepower by Trek standards. (What is that, like 200 Borg cubes or more?)

Maybe more like 200,000 cubes

However, it should be pointed out, two years is more then enough time to equipped the entire Fededation fleet with Transphasic Torpedoes and Ablative Armor Generators. after all, Voyager did it without a space dock in a few hours/days.

You'd be amazed at the number of Trekkies who will try to argue against this point in an attempt to rationalize why they didn't use TPTs in Nemesis. They just don't want to admit that the available evidence points to the conclusion that TPTs are simply some funky anti-borg weapon that doesn't work on other ships.

They LOOK like they are some sort of advanced replicator system beyond "TNG" replicators. They could convert any matter into other matter

Was this explicitly stated on screen?

[AdmiralKanos]

What's the big deal about an ablative armour replicator? They are still limited to a finite amount of raw material for the replication, and it only helps against a weapon weak enough to be stopped by the initial armour layer (so it can repair the damage before the next hit).

A weapon powerful enough to simply blast through and kill the ship on the first shot will be unaffected by the system's ability to fill in holes afterwards.

[Solauren]

Darth Servo

(I didn't qoute because the message is two back from this one, and it's big)

I listed the POSSBILE operating mechanisms in order. I am of the school that believes transphasic torpedoes just change frequency really quick to keep the Borg off balance.

The rest of the stuff are crude theories based on visual observation as well as audio observation. To me, the Ablative Armor Generators sounded and looked like a combination of the transporter and replicators (minus the particle effect).

I never claimed that was how it worked. Just that the refit time of 2 years was reasonable given Voyager did it byitself in a few days.

Again, like I pointed out, this is a mute point, given the firepower of a Star Destroyer, its hull strength, and its shield capacity. It's a REALLY mute point if the Star Destroyer is equipped with the Qauntum Armor the Sun Crusher had, since the Star Destroyer wouldn't need shields.

[YT300000]

However, it should be pointed out, two years is more then enough time to equipped the entire Fededation fleet with Transphasic Torpedoes and Ablative Armor Generators. after all, Voyager did it without a space dock in a few hours/days.

Maybe you could install them within 2 years, but how fast would the Federation make 2000 units for its combat-capable ships? (remember, they are also quite a bit bigger than Voyager).

[Enforcer Talen]

Darth Servo

(I didn't qoute because the message is two back from this one, and it's big)

I listed the POSSBILE operating mechanisms in order. I am of the school that believes transphasic torpedoes just change frequency really quick to keep the Borg off balance.

The rest of the stuff are crude theories based on visual observation as well as audio observation. To me, the Ablative Armor Generators sounded and looked like a combination of the transporter and replicators (minus the particle effect).

I never claimed that was how it worked. Just that the refit time of 2 years was reasonable given Voyager did it byitself in a few days.

Again, like I pointed out, this is a mute point, given the firepower of a Star Destroyer, its hull strength, and its shield capacity. It's a REALLY mute point if the Star Destroyer is equipped with the Qauntum Armor the Sun Crusher had, since the Star Destroyer wouldn't need shields.

why on earth would you need a quantum armor ship in feddie land?

its, if I remember, as expensive as a death star.

-thinks- quantum? what kind of name is that for armor?

batman! fetch me my wristwatch armor! ph34r!

[Kerneth]

There's already plenty of quantum shit in Star Trek, do we really need to add more?

[Striderteen]

As for Trekkie ablative armor, allow me to point out that Star Wars has regenerative armor systems that do not depend on being able to reverse-engineer and duplicate future technology; the YVH (Yuzzhan Vong Hunter) series of combat droids designed by Lando Calrissian were equipped with *drumroll* regenerative self-healing laminanium armor.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Hell, NJO gives us even better ships. LY ranges, percentage-C combat, lightspeed TL's.. Of course, they just want the lesser numbers of ships from the Remnant, not the rest.

At least 100 ISDs is still murder for them.

[YT300000]

At least 100 ISDs is still murder for them.

Hell, 6 ISD's could destroy the Federation.

[Enforcer Talen]

1, if its willing to take its time.

[SPOOFE]

Stuff like phase-cloaks and ablative armor and transphasic torps are nifty toys and all, but they represent stalling tactics, at best. Even if we assumed that those pieces of technology worked exactly how the Trekkies say they do, they simply mean that the Federation might be able to take down a dozen or so invading ships rather than get absolutely curb-stomped.

Think about it: Phase-cloaking doesn't last forever. Eventually, a ship'll run out of power... and where does it get refueled? Oh wait, it doesn't... while it was hiding, the entire Federation got smashed flat. Okay, so it attacks with its transphasic torps... well, it manages to fire off one or two, but then gets destroyed itself. Ablative armor? Don't make me laugh.