Could someone provide a quick Darkstar summary?

[Darth Wong]

Hey, I'm going to fire off my first salvo to Darkstar in a public debate (which won't occur here; he's gone for good after that last bear-baiting incident, and I doubt anyone but TheDarkling will miss him).

Anyway, I haven't been following that closely since the Deathstar thing got resurrected (if, indeed, it ever died). What's his current position on that? Are there any key elements I should be looking at? New pieces he added to his convoluted jigsaw puzzle? I don't mean to be a burden, but I'm pretty busy at work and I don't have time to sift through the huge mountain of bullshit that passes for your average Darkstar thread.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Well, there was that point in the "Proving BaldStar Wrong" thread that Poe started where he just totally ignored my point on the speed of the saucer section.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... &start=195

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... &start=210

Not much, but it's interesting how he reacts (which includes not responding to the topic for days.)

[Akira]

Hey, I'm going to fire off my first salvo to Darkstar in a public debate (which won't occur here; he's gone for good after that last bear-baiting incident, and I doubt anyone but TheDarkling will miss him).

Anyway, I haven't been following that closely since the Deathstar thing got resurrected (if, indeed, it ever died). What's his current position on that? Are there any key elements I should be looking at? New pieces he added to his convoluted jigsaw puzzle? I don't mean to be a burden, but I'm pretty busy at work and I don't have time to sift through the huge mountain of bullshit that passes for your average Darkstar thread.

lol.

I will miss him. (I think)

um... is it a good thing to miss him???? Someone tell me what to do....

[Stuart Mackey]

If memory serves, most of his argument revolves around the rings from the Alderaan explotion and the dwell time of the laser and the shape of Alderaan as it explodes. He uses this to to reduse the firepower of the DS1 , ie. the DS cannot produse, by itself, enough power to destroy a planet, so it must be something else.
I have asked Phil Skyhan of ASVS-HN to put up his clip of the Alderaan destruction for you, and others, to veiw and use.

[Master of Ossus]

None of you are even close. No summary of DarkStar is complete without "Ripping Apart DarkStar's cowardly attempt to avoid criticism."

I know that it is a VERY long thread, but a thorough read through it will be completely worth your while. DarkStar shows up about 5 or 6 pages in to begin his own defense, and then the fur starts to fly. Look for me around page 17 or 18, when I really tear into him by rebutting almost EVERY SINGLE ONE of his posts and points. I really think that that thread is the single culmination of everything he does badly as a debater and as a researcher. After reading that thread, I cannot IMAGINE anyone telling me seriously that I had lost.

It is kind of the source of my hatred for that dumb bastard. I never liked him before, but once I got into that thread I could not allow him to get away. Seriously, Mike, read the thread, at least from where RSA gets involved. I PROMISE it will be worth it. You can find more flaws in his logic there than I have ever seen anyone have in a single thread, before. Also, very late in the thread I wrote that LotR parody that everyone is talking about, but you can see foreshadowing and prequels to it during the debate.

Really a great thread for anyone who's looking for a laugh, it is indispensible for anti-DarkStar debaters.

Good luck, Mike. We're all rooting for you.

[Akira]

None of you are even close. No summary of Good luck, Mike. We're all rooting for you.

I'm not. I am not "rooting" for anyone.

[Master of Ossus]

None of you are even close. No summary of Good luck, Mike. We're all rooting for you.

I'm not. I am not "rooting" for anyone.

Everyone who counts is rooting for Mike. We all hope he'll knock some sense through DarkStar's kevlar skull.

[Akira]

None of you are even close. No summary of Good luck, Mike. We're all rooting for you.

I'm not. I am not "rooting" for anyone.

Everyone who counts is rooting for Mike. We all hope he'll knock some sense through DarkStar's kevlar skull.

I don't count??? Thanks That's always useful to know. I am a worthless waste of space.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

We don't need this right now, Akira.

Be quiet.

[Akira]

We don't need this right now, Akira.

Be quiet.

ok. *hides in cage*

um.. "Go Darth Wong" (??)

[EmperorMing]

That's OK. You'll be forgiven for not knowing...

Of course, I've been in lurk mode during most of this...

[SPOOFE]

There are two things that I recall...

1. He claims that the two shockrings produced in the Alderaan explosion are evidence of some sort of "nuclear disruption" or somesuch... essentially, technobabble that relies on something other than direct energy transfer. He claims that the first shockring is produced when the "nuclear disruption" energy starts blowing up the planet (and thus explains how it can circle around the planet) while the second one is caused with this force finishes consuming the planet.

2. Atmospheric disturbance... he claims that since we don't see any disturbance of the atmosphere on Alderaan, there couldn't have been any DET since it would have screwed up the cloud cover and caused all sorts of wonky effects appear in the sky. Furthermore, he claims that since we can see the clouds on Alderaan become highlighted, this indicates that there was no planetary shield over the planet.

I imagine that the flaws in his silly little notions should be plainly obvious.

[Kahlis]

Utterly hilarious.

Go Wong Go.

[Ender]

He also claims that the Empire is only 2000 lyrs across, with 12000 lyrs as an extremem upper limit.

You might want to deal with that.

[Vympel]

Lord Wong,

best idea would be to go directly to the source- his website.

If not, there's the chance that he could claim you misrepresented what he said, triumphantly scream strawman, and then run off.

Direct quotes from there are the best bet IMHO.

[His Divine Shadow]

Utterly hilarious.

Go Wong Go.

Hi Provost, here to make my head explode again? Or maybe have my face melt?

[Mr Bean]

The Darkstar Wall of Ignorance

Just elborate on it when he starts pulling it

His favorete tatic as he demosrated with Ossus is at the BEGINING is to acutaly attempt to debate with you but on each point you prove him wrong on he *builds that wall a bit higher. He then claims victory on the point he just lost/and or ignores it completly until at some point, he's ignoring you completly

[Phil Skayhan]

I have asked Phil Skyhan of ASVS-HN to put up his clip of the Alderaan destruction for you, and others, to veiw and use.

I'm going to put the file up by Wednesday night. DarkStar had already requested this yesterday.

I don't think Mike needs my file as he already has his laserdisc digitized onto his computer. That and he also has a better LD player than I (that bastard, how dare he!) and as I told DarkStar, the stills that Mike has are of better resolution than ones I can produce. So keep that in mind if a question arises.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

BTW, Mike, you should probably update the Shit List, too.

[SirNitram]

Without tooting my own horn(toot toot) too much, here's what I managed to beat out of him with a large stick.

SirNitram wrote:
Dark Star, without going off topic or on a tangent as these threads are so prone to, please describe:

1) The mechanism of the superlaser you claim.


As stated, I do not wish to speculate further than the canon allows. However, based on what we know from the Canon, the Superlaser Effect involves some form of matter-energy conversion (approximately 0.0002% of the mass of the planet, assuming an Earth-like planet and 100% conversion). This is sufficient to produce the apparent firepower of 1e38J.

Further than that . . . i.e. the nature of the beam, how it achieves matter-energy conversion, the distribution of the converted matter, and so on . . . involves speculation. All we know is what we can see of the destruction, and the canon evidence of the novel. There may have even been some partial DET component, but given the recent revelation that the clouds were not visibly disturbed by the beam, I need to perform calculations to determine what the DET fraction could possibly have been. Therefore, for the moment, it is not a component of the theory.

(Note: I think I may have previously stated that a partial DET component was likely. If I did, then this constitutes a revision of the theory in the light of the cloud evidence.)

Quote:
2) The reasons said mechanism does not induce planar rings in Mon Cal Cruisers.


As stated previously, even a low-power shot could produce total destruction of a comparatively-tiny starship without causing the more peculiar effects. It should be noted, however, that the second Rebel cruiser which was destroyed did exhibit a particularly violent expulsion of gaseous-looking material, possibly indicative of some sort of similar behavior.

(Also, the Liberty explosion has a peculiar "poofing out" effect, as if there were missing frames in the digitized version I recently saw. However, I have not yet confirmed if this is the case in the actual movie.)

Quote:
3) The reasons said mechanism induces planar rings in the Death Stars upon explosion.


According to theory, it is all based around the superlaser. The fact that the superlaser was charged or being discharged on every ring occasion lends credence to this. There is also the interesting flash on DS2's superlaser just prior to the final explosion, with a surprising darkening of the interior. The flash begins at frame 402 of Phil Skayhan's "Rings.mpg" and does not fully dissipate before the final explosion begins at frame 422.

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/Rings402.jpg
http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/Rings411.jpg

Also, note the superimposed image of Rings 421 (one frame before final explosion) and Rings 424 (the start of DS2 ring formation):

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/Rings421-4.jpg

What I believe to be occurring here is a brief primary blast, possibly signalling either reactor destruction or the catastrophic release of superlaser energies within the primary structure. You'll note that, in the superimposed final explosion shot, the ring and explosion are focused on the center of mass of the Death Star, not the reactor location. This is further evidence of some relation between the superlaser, mass conversion, and rings.

However, there is not a similar primary blast on the superlaser dish of DS1. The DS1 explosion was quite rapid and violent. The only noticable peculiarity with the blast itself is that it seems to blow the bottom half of the battlestation apart first, and indeed the glowing giblets that move away from the station are similarly distributed more toward the lower half of the Death Star than the top.

I have superimposed frames 156 (one frame before the explosion) and 160 (start of ring). I can't tell exactly, due to the small size of the image, whether or not the ring is centered, but it appears to be a bit off-center, and is obviously on a peculiar axis.

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/Rings156-60.jpg

On the other hand, the upper left portion of the battlestation basically disappears between one frame and the next . . . probably an F/X screwup, but the most likely rationalization would be that the upper areas of the station were probably far less massive, perhaps for mass distribution.

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/Rings157.jpg

Of course, this would only serve as a proper explanation under my theory. If the reactor went and the upper portions of the station were largely hollow or composed of lighter, weaker materials under normal conditions, the blast would have been directed upward. One could argue that the blast was directed downward because of denser, more robust materials and equipment up top, but that would not explain the disappearing hull section.

Quote:
4) Why said mechanism will not react with the atmosphere.


It fits that it probably wouldn't, simply based on the lack of continued reaction in regards to destroyed starship particles. The confirmation came with the observation. As to why it doesn't, this is not known. That would require knowledge of the type of energy or particles the beam is composed of, and I doubt that will ever become clear. To quote Saxton: "The true nature of the "superlaser" remains an undescribed piece of superphysics, and only its incidental effects have so far been named."

And when asked why he rejects DET, he replied with this.

Several theories . . . indeed, several main theories and perhaps two dozen variations . . . have been put forward to explain the rings.

The frontrunners (from what I have been able to tell . . . feel free to add more) are:

1. Alderaan shield failure.
1a. Alderaan shield generator failure.
2. Alderaan hypermatter reactors overloading.
3. A blast wave of vaporized material, ordered into a planar ring by magnetic fields or the planet's rotational energies.

Now, two approaches to counterarguments, regarding each particular theory about the rings:

A. Alderaan-specific counterarguments:
1. No shield has been observed.
1a. See above.
2. This may explain the origin of Ring One, but not the position . . . the ring's center is the center of the planet. Further, it does not explain Ring Two. Hypermatter is not canon.
3. Does not explain the position of Ring One, nor its origin, since this would require vaporized material to magically encircle the globe, and then depart the surface at significant fractions of lightspeed, carrying (as argued in the thread) no less than 11% of the rotational KE from the planet, instantaneous acceleration to .3c notwithstanding.


B. All-Ring-specific counterarguments:
1. The DS2 had no shield upon its destruction, and yet still produced a ring.
1a. see above
2. Hypermatter is not canon, but even if we allow for it the DS2 explosion and ring-formation would seem to disprove it, given that the explosion was not centered at the center of the Death Star (where the reactor was).
3. It is unlikely the DS1 was engaging in rotation . . . they were prepared to fire. DS2 may or may not have been rotating, depending on your opinion of the Jerjerrod story from the novel fitting into the movie.

[Cal Wright]

He also claims that the Empire is only 2000 lyrs across, with 12000 lyrs as an extremem upper limit.

You might want to deal with that.

If he ignores EU, then it's gonna be a toss up to get him to accept higher numbers. However, in Sheild of Lies I believe it is, Lando says that scientists have measured the galaxy and it's 120,000 light years across. Using the Episode I guide worlds (sort of a ICS for planets) there is a map of the galaxy. It states 100,000, yet using the measuring bar it is actually 120,000. The lower number might be the size of Republic controlled space. Tatooine lies outside the ring formation of the outer rim also. This would cause measurments of how far Maul, the Falcon and the Death Star traveled to get from Coruscant/Tatooine, Tatooine/Alderaan, Alderaan/Yavin respectively. He might bawk at the Sheild of Lies quote. I doubt he could work around the planetary ICS book though, since they work directly with the films.