"The War Is Over". Oh Really?

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-06-23 02:28pm

Trekkies have been approaching the VS arguments the wrong way since the first asteroid calcs proved most Trek ships were hopelessly outgunned by SW counterparts. They either try in futility to prove that a Trek ship can go toe-to-toe with a SW one, or simply give up when the firepower ratio proves them wrong. Strangely enough, this is going against everything Trek has ever stood for!

Tell me, did Kirk simply give in when faced with a more powerful opponent (THe First Federation ship) in "The Corbomite Maneuver"? Nope.

Did Kirk turn tail and run back to Earth when faced with the more powerful Romulan prototype warbird in "Balance of Terror"? Nope.

What about the Doomsday Machine? Did Kirk give up then? Nope.

Did Picard run away from the Borg in their first encounter? Well, yeah, he did. That's a bad example.

Did Sisko give in to the Dominion? Nope. Did he surrender to the numerically superor forces of the Klingon Empire? Nope.

Did Janeway surrender to the Borg in her numerous encounters with them? Nope. Say what you will about her captaincy, but she delivered more destruction to the Borg than any Starfleet captain ever has.

So Trekkies, quit yer whining, and come up with some logical scenarios.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2003-06-23 02:45pm

Don't make me hurt you Poe.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-23 02:51pm

Lord Poe wrote:Did Picard run away from the Borg in their first encounter? Well, yeah, he did. That's a bad example.

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-06-23 03:10pm

Wayne, quit being an ass.

MKSheppard · Post by **MKSheppard** » 2003-06-23 03:18pm

Howedar wrote:Wayne, quit being an ass.

He speaks the truth man!

Soontir C'boath · Post by **Soontir C'boath** » 2003-06-23 03:25pm

MKSheppard wrote:
Howedar wrote:Wayne, quit being an ass.
He speaks the truth man!

With your point of view in hand too.

~Jason

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2003-06-23 04:36pm

Just because Bottle Coveys captain Starfleet ships doesn't mean they can do much damage.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2003-06-23 06:02pm

I agree with Poe here, this forum has been boring lately, and if this nonsense can stir up some debate I support it.

Agent Fisher · Post by **Agent Fisher** » 2003-06-23 07:49pm

amen poe amen

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-06-23 08:00pm

Wouldn't the Corbomite Manuver be a thing like what little Bobby tries? IIRC Kirk was just bullshitting.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-06-23 08:04pm

Well Poe, imagine you're in the federation..how would YOU attempt to fight off the empire?

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-23 08:06pm

Rye wrote:Well Poe, imagine you're in the federation..how would YOU attempt to fight off the empire?

By finding all the white cloth possible. And making a really big flag.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-06-23 09:03pm

YT300000 wrote:
Rye wrote:Well Poe, imagine you're in the federation..how would YOU attempt to fight off the empire?
By finding all the white cloth possible. And making a really big flag.

How cute, the newbie is trying to suck up.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-23 09:10pm

Ender wrote:
YT300000 wrote:
Rye wrote:Well Poe, imagine you're in the federation..how would YOU attempt to fight off the empire?
By finding all the white cloth possible. And making a really big flag.
How cute, the newbie is trying to suck up.

I said that because the Federation is fucking screwed. The only way to survive is to surrender. How the fuck is that sucking up?!?!

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2003-06-23 09:39pm

Lord Poe wrote:Trekkies have been approaching the VS arguments the wrong way since the first asteroid calcs proved most Trek ships were hopelessly outgunned by SW counterparts. They either try in futility to prove that a Trek ship can go toe-to-toe with a SW one, or simply give up when the firepower ratio proves them wrong. Strangely enough, this is going against everything Trek has ever stood for!

Tell me, did Kirk simply give in when faced with a more powerful opponent (THe First Federation ship) in "The Corbomite Maneuver"? Nope.

Did Kirk turn tail and run back to Earth when faced with the more powerful Romulan prototype warbird in "Balance of Terror"? Nope.

What about the Doomsday Machine? Did Kirk give up then? Nope.

Did Picard run away from the Borg in their first encounter? Well, yeah, he did. That's a bad example.

Did Sisko give in to the Dominion? Nope. Did he surrender to the numerically superor forces of the Klingon Empire? Nope.

Did Janeway surrender to the Borg in her numerous encounters with them? Nope. Say what you will about her captaincy, but she delivered more destruction to the Borg than any Starfleet captain ever has.

So Trekkies, quit yer whining, and come up with some logical scenarios.

I think us Trekkies best bet is to go with the Borg. They have manpower, resources and some impressive ships(in the Trek universe at least). We have a great deal of information to work with, thanks to Voyager. The Borg are considered the most powerful "conventional" power in the Trek universe so far as I know(at least, the one we know the most about).

I once (again) tried to debate Mike Wong some time ago using Borg info I've been collecting here and there. However, he cut the debate short by posing a very good question to myself: "Did you start with a predefined conclusion that the Borg can somehow win against the Empire?". It was a remark that stung at first, but only because he hit it right on. That was my mistake. Therefore, I've made it my mission to collect as much information about the Borg as possible, create reasonable theories and extrapolations about their abilities, strength, etc. My goal is to paint a picture (for myself and others) of what the Borg are, as opposed to what I want them to be(ie: Imperial killing machnine LOL). Until I get close to that goal, I've set aside Borg and Imperial comparisons so as to not muddle my view or "subconciously" boost Borg abilities to match Imperial ones.

YT300000 · Post by **YT300000** » 2003-06-23 09:45pm

Robert Walper wrote:I think us Trekkies best bet is to go with the Borg. They have manpower, resources and some impressive ships(in the Trek universe at least). We have a great deal of information to work with, thanks to Voyager. The Borg are considered the most powerful "conventional" power in the Trek universe so far as I know(at least, the one we know the most about).

http://h4h.com/louis/borgs.html

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-06-23 10:52pm

Alyeska wrote:Don't make me hurt you Poe.

Oh, come on. It wasn't a slam against you.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-06-23 10:54pm

Howedar wrote:Wayne, quit being an ass.

What the hell are you talking about? This isn't a joke. The debate simply has to EVOLVE.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-06-23 10:56pm

Ender wrote:Wouldn't the Corbomite Manuver be a thing like what little Bobby tries? IIRC Kirk was just bullshitting.

Very true. But he tried something, and it worked. A smaller scout ship broke off from the Fesarius, and Kirk broke the Enterprise away from the tractor beam, damaging that ship. Of course, it was all a test, but then, so was "Q-Who?"

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-06-23 11:03pm

Rye wrote:Well Poe, imagine you're in the federation..how would YOU attempt to fight off the empire?

Ah, I think we tried role-reversal on ASVS once. If I were someone like Kirk, I'd notice the Empire is using a shuttle to board my ship. I'd gamble they aren't familiar with transporters, so when the ISD sends the shuttle, I'd beam a truckload of antimatter containment bottles directly under the main hangar and detonate it. If I'm lucky, it will destroy the shuttle, possibly damage the ISD severely, so I could get the hell out of there....

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-06-23 11:13pm

Robert Walper wrote:
Lord Poe wrote:Trekkies have been approaching the VS arguments the wrong way since the first asteroid calcs proved most Trek ships were hopelessly outgunned by SW counterparts. They either try in futility to prove that a Trek ship can go toe-to-toe with a SW one, or simply give up when the firepower ratio proves them wrong. Strangely enough, this is going against everything Trek has ever stood for!

Tell me, did Kirk simply give in when faced with a more powerful opponent (THe First Federation ship) in "The Corbomite Maneuver"? Nope.

Did Kirk turn tail and run back to Earth when faced with the more powerful Romulan prototype warbird in "Balance of Terror"? Nope.

What about the Doomsday Machine? Did Kirk give up then? Nope.

Did Picard run away from the Borg in their first encounter? Well, yeah, he did. That's a bad example.

Did Sisko give in to the Dominion? Nope. Did he surrender to the numerically superor forces of the Klingon Empire? Nope.

Did Janeway surrender to the Borg in her numerous encounters with them? Nope. Say what you will about her captaincy, but she delivered more destruction to the Borg than any Starfleet captain ever has.

So Trekkies, quit yer whining, and come up with some logical scenarios.
I think us Trekkies best bet is to go with the Borg. They have manpower, resources and some impressive ships(in the Trek universe at least). We have a great deal of information to work with, thanks to Voyager. The Borg are considered the most powerful "conventional" power in the Trek universe so far as I know(at least, the one we know the most about).

I once (again) tried to debate Mike Wong some time ago using Borg info I've been collecting here and there. However, he cut the debate short by posing a very good question to myself: "Did you start with a predefined conclusion that the Borg can somehow win against the Empire?". It was a remark that stung at first, but only because he hit it right on. That was my mistake. Therefore, I've made it my mission to collect as much information about the Borg as possible, create reasonable theories and extrapolations about their abilities, strength, etc. My goal is to paint a picture (for myself and others) of what the Borg are, as opposed to what I want them to be(ie: Imperial killing machnine LOL). Until I get close to that goal, I've set aside Borg and Imperial comparisons so as to not muddle my view or "subconciously" boost Borg abilities to match Imperial ones.

I disagree. I think the Dominion might be the best bet, because if their weapons can pierce shields then the smaller ships of Wars could be in trouble.

Course they would still get fucking stomped once anything over 500 meters came into play, but still...

Towlie · Post by **Towlie** » 2003-06-23 11:14pm

What exactly do you propose? It doesn't sound like re-interpreting the Trek canon rules to benefit Trek (i.e. let novels, books, and tech manuals in as the closest to what the creators were trying to convey - but since they are often inconsistent with the series that opens up a host of new problems - and debates)

Coming up with new Trek tactics sounds like the usual impossible-BS-of-the-week-before-some-Trektard-is-shot-down kinda thing. So how can it be done differently? Some in the past have suggested that if Wong, yourself, and others were to truly dedicate yourselves to the Trek side, with your knowledge of Wars you might be able to find some strategy. But that rests on the assumption that
1. You and Wong are simply better debaters than any Trek debater that has ever existed
2. Real evidence shows that there is a reasonble way for Trek to win

Alternately, you could put all the less-retarded Trekkie ideas into one and throw some Wars history into the mix. Assume that the ST galaxy finds the SW galaxy first and decides it is a massive danger for whatever reason. Take a Fed-Kling-Rom-Delta/Gamma quadrant alliance. What if Founders infiltrated SW positions in a time of low suspicion against shapeshifters or ability to deal with them (e.g. Old Republic, New Republic, dying Empire). They could get into important and/or sensitive positions. Next the Borg begin assimilating defenseless outer rim colonies (even the smallest settlements) that nobody will miss and try to assimilate their technology. Spies from all the powers will collect data on SW tech. ST races will clandestinely sell resources and special tech (cloaking, medical tech, holodeck tech) in exchange for basic SW tech. Over a period of years or decades the ST races can co-operate to catch up to the SW galaxy. Meanwhile ST spies are enlisting in the SW navies and learning everything they can. Also, the founders learn of IG-88's plan for the galactic droid rebellion and get the codes to trigger it. ST powers share data about themselves with other ST powers and locate old things like the Doomsday machine and other good stuff like that.

Heh, actually after all this the entire ST galaxy's worth of conventional forces will be still a minor SW power.

Unless the Feds rediscover genesis. Terrorists could plant them on important planets. They could have them in safe houses on Coruscant under the planetary shield. They could hold the whole galaxy hostage!

But heck, if the ST galaxy actually found the SW galaxy first, there might not even be a war. The ST galaxy might just hide, or settle in the SW galaxy for all we know.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 2003-06-24 03:02pm

Lord Poe wrote:
Rye wrote:Well Poe, imagine you're in the federation..how would YOU attempt to fight off the empire?
Ah, I think we tried role-reversal on ASVS once. If I were someone like Kirk, I'd notice the Empire is using a shuttle to board my ship. I'd gamble they aren't familiar with transporters, so when the ISD sends the shuttle, I'd beam a truckload of antimatter containment bottles directly under the main hangar and detonate it. If I'm lucky, it will destroy the shuttle, possibly damage the ISD severely, so I could get the hell out of there....

That's a cool idea. How much antimatter would be needed, and how much do fed ships actually have? Cos you'll be screwed if you have to use your warp core fuel.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2003-06-24 03:24pm

Rye wrote:That's a cool idea. How much antimatter would be needed, and how much do fed ships actually have? Cos you'll be screwed if you have to use your warp core fuel.

See, I'm not good at this!

Anyway, I'd use as much as possible while still keeping enough left over to get out of the quadrant at least. "Bleed the antimatter of the photon torpedoes if you have to, Mr. Scott!"

Fuck yeah....

Sothis · Post by **Sothis** » 2003-06-24 05:59pm

Who was it who first coined the phrase 'Oberths of death' or some such? Lots of Oberth class ships, laden with anti-matter- big flying bombs in essence

Maybe an interesting twist is to think outside the box for a moment and say 'lets use the books in one thread' or 'lets use the tech manuals in this thread', and see if it makes a notable difference. Book wise, the authors all have very different views on power levels and weapons yield (TNG Intellivorve spoke of planet cracker bombs, The Romulan Prize implied a solitary Galaxy class ship could swiftly perform a BDZ, whereas Grounded had the Enterprise effectively defeated by clay), so it would be difficult, though the Invasion series would be interesting to use (races that have harnessed pure terror into a weapon that drives their enemy mad).

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

"The War Is Over". Oh Really?

"The War Is Over". Oh Really?

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Re: "The War Is Over". Oh Really?

Re: "The War Is Over". Oh Really?

Re: "The War Is Over". Oh Really?