So...

[Andrew Joshua Talon]

Anyway, here I go, no longer the presumed teacher but instead the student. What I would like, if that's alright, to know is:

What would win in a fight between Voyager upgunned with the "Endgame" tech, and an ISD?

THis is probably another one of those FAQ, but my computer is acting up. It refuses to go to a few select pages on this site and others. My dad needs to get a new one, definately. But hey, it'd be nice if you could answer.

I ask because Voyager (with said tech) took the assault of an entire fleet of Borg Cubes and blew a pretty large number of them to peices with one or two torpedos each. If Trek ships are indeed as underpowered as this forum's conclusions say, then could they be more of a match for Wars ships with this upgrade? Destroying anything the size of a Borg cube in only a few shots is very impressive and very cool.

Then again, Species 8472 took care of the Borg without any trouble whatsoever. If they and the Empire ever met...

Ouch. Unhappy thoughts.

[Master of Ossus]

This is actually a subject that has not been completely settled yet. It is unclear how good the new Endgame technology actually is, though most of us still believe that an ISD could destroy such a ship fairly easily.

The matter of the Empire against Species-8472, I believe, has been fairly well acknowledged as another relatively easy Imperial victory, though to be fair we are assuming that Imperial ships can use the same portals that S-8472 does to access the ST dimension.

[TheDarkling]

It comes down to the Torps, if they are high powerfull shield skippers then Voyager may have a chance if it stayed at warp and got off a full spread at the get go.

If the torps are some shield feqw switching weapon then voyager is so very dead (unless you allow character shields in which case Voyager would survive the end of the universe) .

[Master of Ossus]

I still don't think that ST ships can warp-strafe a target.

[TheDarkling]

I personally see a MAD situation with 8472 Vs Imps, the Imps may not even be able to access 8472 space (I doubt it but ecventually they may figure it out).

In the meantime 8472 would rip apart ever planet that doesnt keep its shield up 24/7 (which is almost every planet).

[Robert Walper]

I still don't think that ST ships can warp-strafe a target.

Personally, I just like to see some credit given to Federation firepower and shielding. They'd still get an ass kicking at the hands of the Empire, but I feel their weapons and such are under-rated.

[TheDarkling]

The warp strafe is possible - its always used in TOS and we see ships fire whilst at warp post TOS.

Besides using torps isnt really a warp strafe its firing torps at long range (a second or two out) then altering course which we know they can do.

[Evil Jerk]

I said it once and I'll say it again, 8472 don't have the bottle for actual war, they're fine if they're the invincible ones blowing up planets, but otherwise..

As for Voyager's tranny torps.. well, even if they are shield skippers, they'd have a tough time getting past Imperial armour.

[Evil Jerk]

The warp strafe is possible - its always used in TOS and we see ships fire whilst at warp post TOS.

Besides using torps isnt really a warp strafe its firing torps at long range (a second or two out) then altering course which we know they can do.

I suspect they abandoned this later on due to low accuracy and jamming.

[Master of Ossus]

The warp strafe is possible - its always used in TOS and we see ships fire whilst at warp post TOS.

Besides using torps isnt really a warp strafe its firing torps at long range (a second or two out) then altering course which we know they can do.

Perhaps. I wonder why it wasn't used against DS9 during any of the attacks on it.

[TheDarkling]

Its possible but when its your only option im sure they would start using the warp strafe again.

As for 8472 not having enough bottle - thats just not true, they got a new unknown player with a super weapon on the field and hey gathered nifo on them (thats the correct action).

[Master of Ossus]

Its possible but when its your only option im sure they would start using the warp strafe again.

It was the Dominion's only option against DS9. They didn't use it.

[TheDarkling]

Both attacks on DS9 were either time critical or attempts at capture (probably both).

Also both were by forces that dont mind dying (Dominion and Klingons), when you want precision aiming and a quick victory warp strafing aint the way to go.

[Evil Jerk]

Its possible but when its your only option im sure they would start using the warp strafe again.

As for 8472 not having enough bottle - thats just not true, they got a new unknown player with a super weapon on the field and hey gathered nifo on them (thats the correct action).

Like I stated elsewhere, they could've destroyed Voyager or if they thought the UFP had it they could've destroyed Earth, problem over.

Also, it is utterly inconceivable that they gathered so much information on the Federation from the architecture to the people to Vulcan poetry yet did not know that Voyager was the only one with the weapon and that they were enemies of the Borg too.
So in conclusion: They are as stupid as they are cowardly.

[TheDarkling]

The dominon atatck on DS9 was a capture attempt (besides they didnt expect the shields to work), warp strafing would have gone against the mission aims with the only bonus being that less ships were lost (and capturing DS9 was worth every ship there especially were you consider the Dominions ability to replace lost troops/ships).

[Master of Ossus]

Both attacks on DS9 were either time critical or attempts at capture (probably both).

Also both were by forces that dont mind dying (Dominion and Klingons), when you want precision aiming and a quick victory warp strafing aint the way to go.

Why was the Dominion attack time critical? The time it takes them to attack the station was insignificant next to their transit time out there. After the mines were set up they should have switched over to attacking the station with warp strafing. And I'm pretty sure that the Cardassians do mind dying, and that Weyoun was not happy about the casualties they took along the way.

Also, the Klingons clearly did mind dying. That is why they called off the attack--to preserve their fleet. To lose a battle to save an Empire is no defeat. They could have won the battle and saved their Empire had they only used warp strafing.

[TheDarkling]

They believed the databse to be inaccurate (Vulcan poety may be correct but classified info wouldnt be open to the public), it makes sense if you think about it for a second.

They didnt know only Voyager had the weapon, they didnt know only Voyager was in the DQ and they didnt know where the Federation stood with regard to the Borg (sure the database says they are evil monster but we have seen the truth where the Feds ally with the Borg).

Also destroying Earth wouldnt kill the federation they would still have a few thousand ships ready to go on the attack.

The recon mission was designed to gather more info on the feds to determine wether to attack or not.

[TheDarkling]

The dominion attack wasnt time critical I meant that the Klingon attack was and that the Klingons may have been trying to take the station.

Warp starfing wasnt the correct choice because precision was necessary.

[Evil Jerk]

They believed the databse to be inaccurate (Vulcan poety may be correct but classified info wouldnt be open to the public), it makes sense if you think about it for a second.

No it doesn't, if the database is inaccurate then it's unsuitable for training spies!

They didnt know only Voyager had the weapon, they didnt know only Voyager was in the DQ and they didnt know where the Federation stood with regard to the Borg (sure the database says they are evil monster but we have seen the truth where the Feds ally with the Borg).

Again, if they think the database is not but propaganda, it is useless.

Also destroying Earth wouldnt kill the federation they would still have a few thousand ships ready to go on the attack.

Unlikely, the destruction of the government, civilian and military command structures would cripple them, not to mention the huge loss of morale associated with the annihilation of their capital planet (plus there's the potential of sniping Utopia Planitia and other major facilities on the way out).
The UFP puts all it's eggs in one basket, a rather dangerous thing to do.

The recon mission was designed to gather more info on the feds to determine wether to attack or not.

With information they regard to be faulty?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Both attacks on DS9 were either time critical or attempts at capture (probably both).

Also both were by forces that dont mind dying (Dominion and Klingons), when you want precision aiming and a quick victory warp strafing aint the way to go.

Why was the Dominion attack time critical? The time it takes them to attack the station was insignificant next to their transit time out there. After the mines were set up they should have switched over to attacking the station with warp strafing. And I'm pretty sure that the Cardassians do mind dying, and that Weyoun was not happy about the casualties they took along the way.

Also, the Klingons clearly did mind dying. That is why they called off the attack--to preserve their fleet. To lose a battle to save an Empire is no defeat. They could have won the battle and saved their Empire had they only used warp strafing.

IIRC the Dominion attack was critical because a large starfleet force was on it's way to reinforce DS9, if that fleet would have arrived while DS9 was still in UFP control then they would have been unable to capture it.

[TheDarkling]

Evil Jerk: The database isnt propaganda just doesnt contain the classified nasty details (understand?).

I believe that answers all your points.

Earth isnt the entire federation and the federation could counter attack.

[Evil Jerk]

Evil Jerk: The database isnt propaganda just doesnt contain the classified nasty details (understand?).

I believe that answers all your points.

First of all, you do say they think it lies, because it would contain info on the Borg being their enemy (that wouldn't be classified, everybody saw it, Picard talked to his brother about it) yet they wouldn't believe it.
If they wouldn't believe that, what would they believe?
Furthermore I don't think it's ever said they didn't have access to classified information.

Earth isnt the entire federation and the federation could counter attack.

In a way, it is.
Think about if, if Earth went away, so would the majority of Starfleet's command staff, the Federation Council, the President, on and on.
The UFP would be headless, in time they might get together and organize a counter attack, but in the confusion 8472 could continue it's campaign by wasting the other major worlds and then it's all over.

[Master of Ossus]

IIRC the Dominion attack was critical because a large starfleet force was on it's way to reinforce DS9, if that fleet would have arrived while DS9 was still in UFP control then they would have been unable to capture it.

No, that was the Klingon attack. And it was only a group of thirty or so Klingon ships. IIRC, they lost more than that many ships while attacking the station. The Dominion attack was under no such time pressure. The UFP's fleet was off attacking the Dominion's AQ shipyards (which has always struck me as being moronically stupid. The destruction of the shipyards would have been irrelevent if the Dominion had moved more quickly against DS9). After the minefield was established, they would have had between several hours and several weeks to capture the station before anything else happened.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Anyway, here I go, no longer the presumed teacher but instead the student. What I would like, if that's alright, to know is:

What would win in a fight between Voyager upgunned with the "Endgame" tech, and an ISD?

THis is probably another one of those FAQ, but my computer is acting up. It refuses to go to a few select pages on this site and others. My dad needs to get a new one, definately. But hey, it'd be nice if you could answer.

I ask because Voyager (with said tech) took the assault of an entire fleet of Borg Cubes and blew a pretty large number of them to peices with one or two torpedos each. If Trek ships are indeed as underpowered as this forum's conclusions say, then could they be more of a match for Wars ships with this upgrade? Destroying anything the size of a Borg cube in only a few shots is very impressive and very cool.

IIRC 5 ships is not a fleet (2 destroyed, 3 left)

And any ISD could blow apart a Borg Cube. And Voyager was losing armour fast.

Then again, Species 8472 took care of the Borg without any trouble whatsoever. If they and the Empire ever met...

Ouch. Unhappy thoughts.

I doubt they'd do much. KE seems to be a big problem.

[SirNitram]

Darkling:

Two points to make here.

1) The Species is telepathic. They can see inside people's heads. If they can't determine that Voyager is outgunned and the only ship with this weapon with that, they are fuggin' stupid.

2) If Earth goes away, the Federation is toast. Several movies and several episodes revolve around this fact.