SW blasters vs. ST phasers?

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SW blasters vs. ST phasers?

Post by Coyote »

Okay, I hope I'm not wasting time on a subject that has already been hacked to death. If so, I apologize, but here's what I'm wondering:

The E-11 blaster carbine used by the Empire (indeed, most blasters) seems to have a bolt that leaves little outside damage, and can at times be rather anemic. Princess Liea got pegged with an E-11 at medium range in RotJ, and suffered minor inconvenience, and Artoo got hit as well but suffered mostly electrical damage. When a blaster does get a good, solid hit on someone, it seems to penetrate easily, leaving only minor scorch marks outside. As blasters get progressively larger in size (ie, vehicle and ship-mounted weaponry) they become amazingly more destructive.

On the other hand, take Trek phasers. In TOS a pistol can utterly disintegrate a person, in ST:TWoK, Kirk vapes the brain leech that comes out of Chekov's ear. The 'dustbusters' of TNG seem capable of doing the same when necessary. But as phasers increase in size, up to ship level, they seem to get weaker in relation to their size.

So is there a size factor that makes the phasers more efficient in small frame weapons and anemic in larger applications, while the reverse seems to apply to the blaster? Not that the blaster is a slouch, I'd approximate it with a 7.62x39 round on the average, although that wimpy hit on Liea & Artoo make me wonder. But they've never disintegrated anyone, or am I not doing enough research?
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Post by jegs2 »

This has been beaten to death, several times. The blaster is a superior weapon to the hand phasor.
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Post by Bob The Great »

the search button can be used to good effect here.
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Post by Lord Poe »

:roll:

<Heavy sick of Trekkie bullshit sigh....>

Hit by hand phaser: "Datalore"

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Hit by blaster rifle: "Return of the Jedi"

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"Datalore"- No reason to assume Lore had phaser set to low power.

"ROTJ"- Every reason to belive blaster was set to low power. The Rebels were to be taken prisoner.
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Re: SW blasters vs. ST phasers?

Post by Crayz9000 »

Coyote wrote:Princess Liea got pegged with an E-11 at medium range in RotJ, and suffered minor inconvenience, and Artoo got hit as well but suffered mostly electrical damage.
Sorry that I don't have time to deal with everything else, but I would mention that the blaster in question in both examples was a pistol, not an E-11. It's like the difference between an MP-5 and a Glock, I suppose.
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Post by FettKyle »

The E-11 blaster carbine used by the Empire (indeed, most blasters) seems to have a bolt that leaves little outside damage, and can at times be rather anemic. Princess Liea got pegged with an E-11 at medium range in RotJ, and suffered minor inconvenience,
I could have sworn that blast hit the side of the bunker wall, like it scratch the corner and then exploding causing Leia wound through small melted shrapnel. :?:
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Post by Vympel »

No it got her.

Disintegration is possible with Star Wars weapons:

"But I want them alive. No disintegrations" Vader to Boba Fett on the Executor.

But really for a military application why bother? You put enough energy into the target to kill it- any more is a waste.
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Post by Mr Bean »

Yes as somone kindly pointed out when hit with a hot moving bolt of energy PEOPLE DONT SPARK

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Post by Alferd Packer »

Lord Poe wrote: "Datalore"- No reason to assume Lore had phaser set to low power.
Actually, yes there is. On the E-D, security lockouts prevent phasers from being set to anything higher than stun during normal operations. Whilst I'm not familiar with the episode, unless someone overrode the phaser lockouts, Lore could have fired a stun setting only.
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

Ok Let's try this: Put a phaser and a blaster on a table and ask someone who knows the capabilities of each weapon decide which one he'll choose. Let's say just for shits and giggles it's a First Contact-style phaser rifle (Dammit Why the FRELL don't they give the things model numbers?!?!) and a DL44 (Han Solo's handgun, SW equivalent to a .44 Magnum +P.) Note the supposed size bias toward the phaser. Personally, I'd choose that blaster, unless I wanna derate the phaser rifle for "Phaser Paintball" stun-only pulse mode... I'm basically saying phaser technology would only be useful to SW races or anyone else with similarly powerful weapons at such a small size as stun or practice weaponry. Maybe even recreational use in "phaser tag" type games, equivalent to today's paintball games... I may just be talking outta my ass, but If I wanna just sting someone I'd take the phaser popgun, but for serious defensive work or in battle I'd grab that DL"44Magnum" and BLOW SH1T UP! Lata and Happy Fragging!

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Post by Ender »

What was the comparrison between the holes Han's blaster put in the walls vs those that hit the cave in ST:I again?
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Post by Alyeska »

FYI the phaser rifles from First Contact do have model numbers. Type-3a and Type-3b.

Hand phasers have shown more onscreen firepower then blasters have shown onscreen. However I will not bother going into detail on the EU information because there is a wide variety of weapons and there are clear implications that blasers have not been shown at their maximum firepower.
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Post by Coyote »

So, just to avoid confusion, I'm not trying to imply that the phasers are superior weapos, my point was that from the observed instances I mentioned it could be construed that blasters start weak but grow to be of titanic firepower (I'd use the buzzwords 'exponential growth' but I know better than to apply that term to the calc wizards here)
as they become larger. I'd say that a single turbolaser turret on an ISD outguns a primary phaser bank on a Galaxy class starship.

Whereas the hand phasers, for all their idiotic ergonomic looks, seem to be comparitively powerful but the phaser itself, as a design, does not[/] keep its power proportional to its size as it grows to artillery proportions. I actually did search the SW vs. SW message strings from previous pages and didn't really find anywehere where this discrepancy is examined; although I did not read every single post in every single string (whew!) and the weapons comparisons I did find were heavy weapons, amount, variety, and vehicle-weapons comparisons. Sidearms were not much examined, or at least not in-depth.

We've worked out the joules for ship-based weaponry; was there a comparison between the amount of power needed to power a E-11 or similar hand blaster vs. a phaser set to full power? I'll see what I can find, meanwhile...
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Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

FYI the phaser rifles from First Contact do have model numbers. Type-3a and Type-3b.
Thanks Alyeska! Ok, it looks like the 3a is a POS, but the 3b looks nice. For the matter of the discussion, the phaser rifle on the table is a 3b.
Hand phasers have shown more onscreen firepower then blasters have shown onscreen. However I will not bother going into detail on the EU information because there is a wide variety of weapons and there are clear implications that blasers have not been shown at their maximum firepower.
Seems like SW characters tend to not like expending too much energy to get the desired effect (a dead enemy) that both ST and SW and RL people want when they use a weapon. It also seems that blasters can get off a whole helluva lot more shots before reloading, which incidentally appears much easier to do with a blaster than a phaser. Figgerz. I wish I had a T21 repeater and a way to find B+B! Lata and Happy Fragging!
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Post by Knife »

If I was stranded on a barren planet and needed a multi use tool, I might go with the phaser.


If I was going to war, and really needed to shoot someone I'd go with the blaster.
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Post by Isolder74 »

I'd have to go with the blaster. Its doubtful how anyone can hit anything with those handvac things. When you hold one you can't see the firing end in order to aim. I don't think it is even useful as a tool since i can start a fire easier with the blaster. As a tool I'd just get a good swiss army knife or at least the SW equivilent of one.
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Post by Alyeska »

Einhander Sn0m4n wrote:
FYI the phaser rifles from First Contact do have model numbers. Type-3a and Type-3b.
Thanks Alyeska! Ok, it looks like the 3a is a POS, but the 3b looks nice. For the matter of the discussion, the phaser rifle on the table is a 3b.
Just to clear it up.

This is the Type-3
http://www.leenet.demon.co.uk/phaser/2360/tngtp3pr.jpg

This is the Type-3a
http://www.hawking-fleet.co.uk/isot/typ ... rrifle.jpg

This is the Type-3b
http://www.hawking-fleet.co.uk/isot/typ ... rrifle.gif

It should be noted that a LARGE number of fan sites commonly mislabel the Type-3a and Type-3b. Infact the fan sites are very consistant in completely swapping the designations of the two. However the DS9TM clearly labels the middle rifle as the Type-3a and then goes on to talk about the Type-3b as being very similar, but does not picture it leaving the direct implication that the third listed picture is indeed the Type-3b.

This is the third phaser rifle designed for First Contact
http://rd.ufed.org/weaponry/images/evaweap.jpg

Note that it has distinct differences compared to the other two. This is an EVA rifle.
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Post by Lord Poe »

Alferd Packer wrote:
Lord Poe wrote: "Datalore"- No reason to assume Lore had phaser set to low power.
Actually, yes there is. On the E-D, security lockouts prevent phasers from being set to anything higher than stun during normal operations. Whilst I'm not familiar with the episode, unless someone overrode the phaser lockouts, Lore could have fired a stun setting only.
A stun setting that set Crusher's arm aflame. I see....

BTW this security lockout thing is a myth, or it may have happened in one episode, so its clear it needs to be manually set.

Danar in "The Hunted" set two phasers to overload, and used a phaser in his escape.

The last Klingon in "Heart of Glory" used a phaser in kill setting in his escape.

Most of the command crew who were posessed in "Power Play" used phasers without being locked to stun setting only.
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Post by Alyeska »

Lord Poe wrote:Danar in "The Hunted" set two phasers to overload, and used a phaser in his escape.
Yet Danar was able to resist transport, could survive phaser hits, was able to work alien technology... I think there is a reasonable chance he might gotten around that.
The last Klingon in "Heart of Glory" used a phaser in kill setting in his escape.
Didn't know that.
Most of the command crew who were posessed in "Power Play" used phasers without being locked to stun setting only.
I take it you didn't factor in that the Captain, First Officer, Chief Engineer, and Security chief were posessed and would have the ability to over ride the system.
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Post by Lord Poe »

Alyeska wrote:
Lord Poe wrote:Danar in "The Hunted" set two phasers to overload, and used a phaser in his escape.
Yet Danar was able to resist transport, could survive phaser hits, was able to work alien technology... I think there is a reasonable chance he might gotten around that.
I saw no indication that Danar was in posession of command codes. Did you?
The last Klingon in "Heart of Glory" used a phaser in kill setting in his escape.
Didn't know that.
Yup. He also threatened the ship by pointing a phaser at the warp core.
Most of the command crew who were posessed in "Power Play" used phasers without being locked to stun setting only.
I take it you didn't factor in that the Captain, First Officer, Chief Engineer, and Security chief were posessed and would have the ability to over ride the system.
I think you're thinking about another episode, possibly. Picard, Riker, nor Worf were posessed in this episode.
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Post by Alyeska »

Lord Poe wrote:I saw no indication that Danar was in posession of command codes. Did you?
Point
Yup. He also threatened the ship by pointing a phaser at the warp core.
Ah, that episode, yeah I remember
I think you're thinking about another episode, possibly. Picard, Riker, nor Worf were posessed in this episode.


Ah, now I know what episode it was. Was there any specific indication that they had their weapons on kill? Reason I ask is because you can still kill someone at point blank range with a phaser on stun.
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Post by seanrobertson »

Vympel wrote:No it got her.

Disintegration is possible with Star Wars weapons:

"But I want them alive. No disintegrations" Vader to Boba Fett on the Executor.

But really for a military application why bother? You put enough energy into the target to kill it- any more is a waste.
\

That's true, but...

With all due respect, if we treat statements about photon torpedoes'
effectiveness against planetary-based targets, as Michael put it,
"speculative character dialogue," why should we take Vader's statement
literally?

I'm playing devil's advocate here, I assure you: I don't doubt there are
hand-held blasters that can disintegrate humanoids. However, observed
proof of such is...well, nil. By the same logic we could dismiss Vader's
statement as hyperbole or anxiousness.

Still, as I said, I'm playing devil's advocate. From what I can tell, blasters
are overall superior weapons. I think it would be foolish to deny what
phasers can do that blasters cannot, but the design of a weapon short
of its effects is going to be more important in the field than the effects
of said weapons--at least, so long as the FX are roughly comparable.
They appear to be: rarely does a phaser "vaporize" a humanoid, for
example.
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Post by Ender »

Blasters don't disintegrate peolpe, a separate weapon called a disruptor does, see EGWT for more details.
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Post by Isolder74 »

anyway Fett was netorious for bring molecules of a criminal as proof catching them. How he did doesn't really matter does it
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Post by Patrick Ogaard »

seanrobertson wrote:
Vympel wrote:No it got her.

Disintegration is possible with Star Wars weapons:

"But I want them alive. No disintegrations" Vader to Boba Fett on the Executor.

But really for a military application why bother? You put enough energy into the target to kill it- any more is a waste.
\

That's true, but...

With all due respect, if we treat statements about photon torpedoes'
effectiveness against planetary-based targets, as Michael put it,
"speculative character dialogue," why should we take Vader's statement
literally?

I'm playing devil's advocate here, I assure you: I don't doubt there are
hand-held blasters that can disintegrate humanoids. However, observed
proof of such is...well, nil. By the same logic we could dismiss Vader's
statement as hyperbole or anxiousness.

Still, as I said, I'm playing devil's advocate. From what I can tell, blasters
are overall superior weapons. I think it would be foolish to deny what
phasers can do that blasters cannot, but the design of a weapon short
of its effects is going to be more important in the field than the effects
of said weapons--at least, so long as the FX are roughly comparable.
They appear to be: rarely does a phaser "vaporize" a humanoid, for
example.
A blaster would be rather unlikely to vaporize a human target, but if Boba Fett's signature weapon really was a cut-down military blaster rifle, and if that blaster rifle's maximum setting puts out a plasma bolt equivalent to a clonetrooper rifle ... a plasma bolt strong enough to blast a .5 meter crater in a ferrocrete wall (say, a cone with a base radius of 25 cm and a height (depth, rather) of 50 cm might not leave much of a human body to examine. The effect on ferrocrete (reinforced concrete, most likely) is taken from the AOTC ICS, specified as the maximum yield setting of the clonetrooper rifle.

Also, there is some evidence that Owen Lars and Beru were subjected to interrogation by the stormtrooper squad. One blood-stained skeleton was prone a foot or so next to the stair down to the farmhouse, the other draped backwards over some low crates or the like. Neither was close enough to the stairs that they could have staggered out of the blazing inferno of the farmhouse and then scenically draped themselves; legs with the muscles burned off don't work. Further here is a possibly illuminating quote:

Han Solo at Star's End , by Brian Daley, 1979 (Daley also wrote the old Star Wars radioplay)

"...You Know what I refer to, Solo-Captain?"

Han did. The Burning was a torture involving the use of a blaster set at low power, to scorch and sear the flesh off a prisoner, leaving only blood-smeared bone. Usually, a leg would be first, immobilizing the vicitim; then the rest of the skeleton was exposed, inch by inch. Any other prisoners could be made to watch, to break their will. The Burning seldom failed to obtain answers, if answers were to be hand; but in Han's opinion, no being who employed such methods deserved to live.


Also, in the novel Lando Calrissian and the Starcave of Thonboka, L. Neil Smith, 1983, one of the characters, Klyn Shanga, uses his blaster pistol set at one-hundredth power to light a cigar. Of course, Shanga is from a technologically backward area that was rather brutally assimilated by the Empire, and so his blaster may not be quite up to spec in terms of its maximum output.


There are also references to variable power levels and focus of blasters in the above-mentioned Han Solo novel and its sequels. In Han Solo and the Lost Legacy, from 1980, Han and company are embroiled in a desperate fight with the ancient, armored war robots of Xim the Despot.

Han threw aside the useless assault rifle and drew his blaster, setting it for maximum power. Chewbacca stepped back, removing the magazine from his weapon and taking one of the larger ones from his bandoleer. Han stepped in front to cover him in a stiff-armed firing stance. He squeezed off bolt after bolt, deliberately and with great concentration, into the approaching robot's cranial turret. Four blaster rounds stopped the machine just as it fired in response. Han ducked the heatbeam that split the air where he had stood. As the robot fell, the beam traced a quick arc upward.

[Note: the robots are of pre-Repblic make, heavily armored enough that it takes two men to lift a disconnected head, and about half again as tall as a Trade Federation super battle droid.]

Later in the battle, the gunman Gallandro temporarily saves Han's bacon by shooting one of the robots. Gallandro is using a custom quick-draw blaster pistol similar to Han's:

The war-robot seemed to block out the sky, a machine out of a nightmare. But abruptly its cranial turret flew apart in a blast of charred circuitry and ruptured power routing as a thread-thin, precisely aimed beam found its most vulnerable point. Han scarcely had the presence of mind to take a step back, nearly treading on Chewbacca, as the automaton crashed at his feet like an old tree.


Han commenting on the shot:
"It was him, Gallandro," Han told his partner, "A fifty-, maybe sixty-meter tight-beam shot." The Wookie shook his head in bewilderment, mane flying.



As Ender said, though, a disruptor would be a much more reliable way of disintegrating a human-sized target. In Han Solo at Stars' End, one of Han's compatriots sets a large disruptor pistol to deliberate overload, ruining the pistol, blistering the man's hands, and ruining the front of a CSA Espo troop hovervan. In Han Solo and The Lost Legacy, a shot from a compact disruptor pistol, sends the torso and limbs of one of Xim's war robots in a wild scatter, analogous to the effect of regular blaster bolts on TradeFed battle droids in The Phantom Menace.
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