Rebel Alliance and Federation

[Failed Glory]

Suppose the Rebel Alliance contacted the Federation to see about a possible alliance against the Empire (or vice versa). They have a meeting, eat donuts and coffee, make speeches, and exchange tactical information.

Does the Rebel Alliance even think the Federation and her allies are worth having? Or does the Rebellion politely say they have their hands full as it is, and, maybe, upon victory, they would then help the Alpha Quadrant?

[Kuja]

fuck 'em. Home One could beat on the Feds all by itself.

[Knife]

If anything just for the industial capacity they could add eventualy. Bring in the right materials and equipment and sooner or later you got some help. Or if anything raw material (including manpower)

[Stravo]

If it's the Kirk era, Kirk could seduce Mon Mothma and the Alliance and Feds live happily ever after. If its TNG era, Picard and Mon Mothma would spend hours debating and they would hammer out some common accord after a particulalrly impassioned speech by Picard on the Federation and its ideals. If its Voyager Janeway would alienate the Alliance by spouting technobabble and posturing, Ackbar may just blow Voyager up in a fit of pique.

[SirNitram]

The Federation would represent two vital things: Resources and manpower. Their technology may be shit on a stick, but if they can be taught 'monkey see monkey do' construction, and trained in real starships, they would be immensely useful.

[Kuja]

'real starships' like Gallofree transports?

[Knife]

Strap some RDX based armor on the Feds and send them running at the Imperials screaming.......

Not yet


Wait for it


Almost




BOOOOOMMMMM

[Ghost Rider]

I believe Stravo hit it on the nose.

[Doomriser]

Some Galofree yards transports have quad lasers...with a hyperdrive and SW shielding, it wouldn't underestimate it in the ST galaxy.

[Isolder74]

I think the Rebels would see the Federation as a good source of new recruits. It would take more time to train them but extra people are extra people.

[Evil Jerk]

The problem is all those vunerable planets, who would no doubt suffer massive reprisals once the Empire finds out where the new Rebel manpower is coming from.
The Federation wouldn't have a chance, and the Rebels have neither the time or resources to help protect them or aid them with new technology.

[Alyeska]

Depends on the situation. If the Federation can get a hold of Rebel technology, engineers, and scientists they ought to be able to cobble together some defensive capabilities right fast. New torpedo technology would likely be the best thing to adapt to ST ships while SF R&D does a crash course on hyper drive technology and hypermatter research. I am sure the Rebels would love to adapt replicators, transporters, and phasers to their ships. Warp would also be another important technology for tactical reasons. Even if the Empire eventually overan the ST locations, the Rebellion would benefit from their technology exchange with the Federation and that would give them a new edge in battles against the Empire.

Imagine Rebel ships that totally bypass Interdictor fields, they can replace medical supplies much easier, they can afford to train their pilots and infantry with low power holodecks, commando insertions with transporters (more power behind transporters and sensors makes the jamming issue less of a problem). Eventually the Empire would also get a hold of this technology (as adressed earlier the Empire would make the ultimate BDZ weapon packing massive phasers using cruiser sized power sources making for energy efficent planetary crust removal, not just slagging), but with the early advantage as well as an increase in manpower and industry, things ought to go well for the Rebellion, far better then originally in the EU.

[Evil Jerk]

Depends on the situation. If the Federation can get a hold of Rebel technology, engineers, and scientists they ought to be able to cobble together some defensive capabilities right fast. New torpedo technology would likely be the best thing to adapt to ST ships while SF R&D does a crash course on hyper drive technology and hypermatter research.

Oh please, not the insta-back engineering argument.

I am sure the Rebels would love to adapt replicators, transporters, and phasers to their ships.

SW technology has something equivalent to replicators, it's doubtful if they'd trust transporters with their (presumably) limited resources, and their weapons make phasers look like pop guns.

Warp would also be another important technology for tactical reasons.

Such as?

Even if the Empire eventually overan the ST locations, the Rebellion would benefit from their technology exchange with the Federation and that would give them a new edge in battles against the Empire.

Unlikely, the only thing of use would be transporter tech, and I heavily question it's usefulness.

Imagine Rebel ships that totally bypass Interdictor fields,

Assuming that warp isn't affected by massive gravity wells.. oh wait, it is.

they can replace medical supplies much easier,

With replicators that generally are unable to replicate medicine?

they can afford to train their pilots and infantry with low power holodecks,

They already use holograms for that.

commando insertions with transporters (more power behind transporters and sensors makes the jamming issue less of a problem).

Okay, where does it say pumping more raw power into a transporter will overcome it's deficiencies?

[Alyeska]

Depends on the situation. If the Federation can get a hold of Rebel technology, engineers, and scientists they ought to be able to cobble together some defensive capabilities right fast. New torpedo technology would likely be the best thing to adapt to ST ships while SF R&D does a crash course on hyper drive technology and hypermatter research.

Oh please, not the insta-back engineering argument. [/qote]

Read what I typed you dumbfuck

SW technology has something equivalent to replicators, it's doubtful if they'd trust transporters with their (presumably) limited resources, and their weapons make phasers look like pop guns.

IIRC the ST replicators have shown easier use and capability.

Such as?

Already adressed and the fact that you ignore it is pathetic

Unlikely, the only thing of use would be transporter tech, and I heavily question it's usefulness.

Oh for shits sake. Just about everyone agress that while Federation phasers have less firepower, they are more energy efficent. That means channeling the same amount of energy into phasers as a TL will produce MORE firepower. In the very least they make incredibly effective planetary bombardment weapons. And I already dealt with the transport issue, again your ignorance is alarming.

Assuming that warp isn't affected by massive gravity wells.. oh wait, it is.

I never claimed other wise, however Warp can still OPERATE in massive gravity wells (IE, EXTREMELY close to stars) where as Hyperdrive can't. Don't confuse the issue.

With replicators that generally are unable to replicate medicine?

Source?

They already use holograms for that.

Didn't know that.

Okay, where does it say pumping more raw power into a transporter will overcome it's deficiencies?

The problem behind transporters is half in the scanning of the area (which is solved by more power to overcome interference), the second problem is the transporter getting through things which can also be bypassed by sending MORE power. That is why transporter-to-transporter pad transporters are so effective and it explains how the E-D has been able to transport to areas that it normally couldn't. With more raw power you get the same effect as the transporter enhancement things that you see them place in a triangle.

[Mr Bean]

IIRC the ST replicators have shown easier use and capability.

Two Words
World Devstators

[Kuja]

Depends on the situation. If the Federation can get a hold of Rebel technology, engineers, and scientists they ought to be able to cobble together some defensive capabilities right fast. New torpedo technology would likely be the best thing to adapt to ST ships while SF R&D does a crash course on hyper drive technology and hypermatter research.

Oh please, not the insta-back engineering argument. [/qote]

Read what I typed you dumbfuck

he did. Read what HE typed. You're suggesting that the Feds can insantly adapt new torps and quickly develop hyperdrive, when that's not necessarily the case.

Unlikely, the only thing of use would be transporter tech, and I heavily question it's usefulness.

Oh for shits sake. Just about everyone agress that while Federation phasers have less firepower, they are more energy efficent. That means channeling the same amount of energy into phasers as a TL will produce MORE firepower. In the very least they make incredibly effective planetary bombardment weapons. And I already dealt with the transport issue, again your ignorance is alarming.

leap of logic. phasers are MUCH less powerful than turbos, and puping energy into them might lead to an overload.

Assuming that warp isn't affected by massive gravity wells.. oh wait, it is.

I never claimed other wise, however Warp can still OPERATE in massive gravity wells (IE, EXTREMELY close to stars) where as Hyperdrive can't. Don't confuse the issue.

hyperdrive does function near stars and gavity wells. computers disallow it because its extremely dangerous to make a jumt close to a mass.

Okay, where does it say pumping more raw power into a transporter will overcome it's deficiencies?

The problem behind transporters is half in the scanning of the area (which is solved by more power to overcome interference), the second problem is the transporter getting through things which can also be bypassed by sending MORE power. That is why transporter-to-transporter pad transporters are so effective and it explains how the E-D has been able to transport to areas that it normally couldn't. With more raw power you get the same effect as the transporter enhancement things that you see them place in a triangle.

Not necessarily. Remember, the Sona couldn't beam up the Baku no matter how much power, and had to start tagging them, and locking on to the TAGS. And the triangle tags only overcome atmospheric interference IIRC, and not necessarily *funny ore, inhibitors, special metal* stuff.

[Mr Bean]

hyperdrive does function near stars and gavity wells. computers disallow it because its extremely dangerous to make a jumt close to a mass.

At bit of an add on, The danger in hyping near Gravity Wells is the fact the Hyperdrive system becomes to Overheat and umm kinda EXPLODED from the effort of hold the ship in Hyperspace

Now in a Interductor Field thats not a problem as though the Drives are now royal trashed nothing there to run into

However if one where yanked out by a Natural Phemonon like a Planet

Well tell me this

Moving at .6C a 200 Ton Object will do what when it pops back in fifty feet aimed at the ground?

[Evil Jerk]

Read what I typed you dumbfuck

Don't get uppety with me.
Research won't mean a damn if they don't get anything out of it before the Empire punishes them, and having an engineer or two to tell them about it won't help.

Oh for shits sake. Just about everyone agress that while Federation phasers have less firepower, they are more energy efficent. That means channeling the same amount of energy into phasers as a TL will produce MORE firepower. In the very least they make incredibly effective planetary bombardment weapons.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Why waste time and resources fitting your ships with a new weapon in the hopes that it might be more energy efficient, especially if you have to do it quickly and have limited resources?

And I already dealt with the transport issue, again your ignorance is alarming.

I don't care if you've "dealt" with it, perhaps you might face the possibility that not everyone agrees with you.

I never claimed other wise, however Warp can still OPERATE in massive gravity wells (IE, EXTREMELY close to stars) where as Hyperdrive can't. Don't confuse the issue.

Both generally don't because of safety reasons, don't does not translate to can't.

Source?

Every episode where they must ferry/retrieve/protect precious medical supplies, which obviously wouldn't be so precious if they could be replicated.

The problem behind transporters is half in the scanning of the area (which is solved by more power to overcome interference), the second problem is the transporter getting through things which can also be bypassed by sending MORE power. That is why transporter-to-transporter pad transporters are so effective and it explains how the E-D has been able to transport to areas that it normally couldn't. With more raw power you get the same effect as the transporter enhancement things that you see them place in a triangle.

IIRC, pattern enhancers simply boost the signal, they don't give the transporter more power, same with pad-to-pad transports, I don't recall anything that said that lots of power will make them work well.

[Alyeska]

Ok, since people seem to think I said it, please quote the exact place I said ST would be able to instantly and effortlessly adapt SW technology.

Oh wait, I didn't.

[seanrobertson]

SW technology has something equivalent to replicators, it's doubtful if they'd trust transporters with their (presumably) limited resources, and their weapons make phasers look like pop guns.

Actually, because they have limited resources they'd be more
likely to use replicators.

Also...why wouldn't the Rebels want to mount phasers on their
starships? A phaser fed by the raw power of a heavy turbolaser
would blow through ISDs left and right.

[Ghost Rider]

Would it?

I mean this is taking a leap of logic akin to fueling your car with Jet fuel in the hopes that because it's more refined your car will run better.

It's asinine in the logical sense and only sounds good, but hardly looks good.

[Evil Jerk]

SW technology has something equivalent to replicators, it's doubtful if they'd trust transporters with their (presumably) limited resources, and their weapons make phasers look like pop guns.

Actually, because they have limited resources they'd be more
likely to use replicators.

Assuming that replicators can produce sufficient quantities of everything they need (absolutley not guaranteed).

Also...why wouldn't the Rebels want to mount phasers on their
starships? A phaser fed by the raw power of a heavy turbolaser
would blow through ISDs left and right.

Pure assumption and exagerration.
And even if it were so, it would take time in research and application.
I'm no engineer, but I hardly think it would be as simple as slapping on an arbitrary piece of Treknology on any SW power source and you're set.

[seanrobertson]

Would it?

I mean this is taking a leap of logic akin to fueling your car with Jet fuel in the hopes that because it's more refined your car will run better.

It's asinine in the logical sense and only sounds good, but hardly looks good.

Yes, it would (I assume you're talking to me; a quote would help
next time, thanks).

Your analogy sounds weak. Please explain why phasers being fed
lots more power would be comparable to putting jet fuel in a car.

[Master of Ossus]

Actually, because they have limited resources they'd be more
likely to use replicators.

Not necessarily. Replicators are necessarily more energy-demanding than what they probably do. Once food is grown, it must be processed into ingots (or something) of food aggregate. It must then be combined in the replicator. These are both energy-demanding processes, and would necessarily require energy in order to work.

Also...why wouldn't the Rebels want to mount phasers on their
starships? A phaser fed by the raw power of a heavy turbolaser
would blow through ISDs left and right.

1. You assume that the phaser can accept unlimited amounts of energy. This is almost certainly not true. Almost all weapons have a certain limit to firepower, beyond which they become unmanageable. Increasing the caliber of guns, for example, necessitates more barrel strength, which generally requires an even thicker (and heavier) barrel. It also requires more recoil. Some weapons used during the Middle Ages could not even be fired from the shoulder due to their tremendous recoil, which would break people's bones! Also, there is a limit as to how powerful a nuclear weapon can be made with the technology we have today. Even if size and weight were not an issue, uranium simply cannot be used after a certain critical mass, and deuterium will no longer be useful in magnifying the explosive's power. Thus, the phaser is almost certainly not capable of firing with TL magnitude energy. Things like heating and size would become too unmanageable.

2. You assume that phasers are more efficient than TL's, the only reason why the Rebels would install them instead of TL's. You also assume that the Rebel ships are infinitely modifiable in accepting structures like phasers, which almost certainly require certain ship structures to be constructed differently.

3. Further, you assume that the most important factor in a Rebel weapon system is firepower/shot (probably measured in energy). It appears it is more important to get the maximum firepower/time (probably measured in watts). There is NO evidence that a phaser with a TL power source could do more damage per time unit than a TL, which fires quick bursts instead of long beams. If the TL does more damage per time, it may still be a more effective weapon system than a phaser, as SW shields work with a limit to how much damage they can take in a unit of time (they are measured in watts by ICS, instead of joules or tons or anything like that). Thus we see that a very quick burst that is just as damaging as a longer burst will actually be MUCH harder for a SW shield to stop, because they have a limit to how many WATTS they can withstand, instead of how many joules.

None of your assumptions are supported in any way. There is actually considerable evidence, as I have presented, against your theory. The phaser is likely a less efficient system both in terms of firepower/energy transfered to it and in terms of firepower/unit time. There is really no reason for the Alliance to use it. And there is considerable evidence that it would require a complete re-design of critical ship's components and designs to use the phaser on Rebel ships.

[seanrobertson]

Assuming that replicators can produce sufficient quantities of everything they need (absolutley not guaranteed).

Sufficient quantities? So they're simply going to use them according
to some ad hoc "all or nothing" principle? Why? They might simply
use them for replicating foodstuffs for the troops. No one ever
said they had to use them for EVERYTHING.

Pure assumption and exagerration.

Clarify.

And even if it were so, it would take time in research and application.

I didn't say it would not. All I said was, a phaser fed by billions of terawatts would chew through ISDs left and right. Given the EFFECTS of phasers
at output powers some billion, trillion, and quadrillion times less, I'd think
this was pretty damn straight forward.

Let me put it this way, since I get the distinct feeling any implication
of a Treknology being useful in Wars is going to be summarily dismissed.
A 1.05 MW phaser ("The Mind's Eye") can make a humanoid completely
disappear, effectively "vaporizing" him/her. I'll tell you right now that
vaporizing a person requires a LITTLE more than 1.05 megajoules.
(Multiply that by over 100x and we'd be on the right track.)

A more powerful phaser, such as those mounted on the Enterprise-D
can burn off a planet's atmosphere with a negligible variance of 60 GW.
60 BILLION GW would make NO difference in burning off an atmosphere.
The same weapon can be used to "destroy" large areas of a planet's crust, presumably to the end that little of it would be left intact above the upper mantle.

That weapon also has an effect equivalent to something GREATER than
its initial output against SHIELDS. Remember, Riker said that the E-D
couldn't generate a terawatt, yet terawattage (or the equivalent thereof) would be required to drain the E-D's shields; e.g., "Relics," "I,Borg,"
"Descent." "Relics" indicates that the E-D could withstand between
roughly 50 and 150,000 TJ before the shields failed. If a phaser
was a direct heat transfer weapon, a 50 GW discharge would require
some 116 DAYS to fully drain her own minimum shield strength.

It's more like 11.6 SECONDS to drain said shield, if that.

Conclusion? Simple. Phasers' effects increase drastically as one pumps
more power into them. At one megawatt, you can "vaporize" a humanoid,
but at just short of a terawatt, you can "vaporize" a large city's worth of rock.
That's not a mere million-fold increase in volume or mass, I assure you.

Pump a billion TW behind that phaser, and watch the fuck out. The
ratio of equivalent effects seems to be roughly several million or more
against rock, several thousand against shields, and perhaps 2-10x
more against heavy armor.

So, yeah, I think a huge Rebel phaser would blast through an ISD
in short order.

I'm no engineer, but I hardly think it would be as simple as slapping on an arbitrary piece of Treknology on any SW power source and you're set.

Did I say you could slap it on and be ready to go? No, nor did I imply
as much. I said a phaser with a HTL's power would be a VERY useful
weapon to the Rebels. I didn't say it'd be easy, though there's no
reason to think that it'd be especially difficult for the Rebels to build
a ship capable of using phasers. Even if they had to compromise
the amount of power fed to the things by several orders of magnitude,
they'd still have weapons easily capable of threatening an ISD's shields.
They might need a few HTL batteries to knock out the hull, but those
batteries could be potentially far more powerful given the energy savings
had with anti-shield phaser cannons.