Wolf 359 Fleet?

[Master of Ossus]

It has long been a contention of Trekkies (and, indeed, an assumption by many pro-wars debaters) that the fleet at Wolf 359 only consisted of the ships that Starfleet could pull together in a very small amount of time, and that it represents only a tiny fraction of the total fleet strength of the Federation. This supposition is supported by many sources, particularly the fleet numbers seen in the DS9 Dominion War, and Commander Shelby's statement that the loss of 39 of the 40 ships in the armada would be recuperated within a year (along with repairing the Enterprise, and presumably the one ship that survived the battle).

However, upon re-watching BoBW part II, I came away convinced that either SF is far less powerful than has been indicated, or that the vast majority of their ships are not even combat capable. The claims that the Wolf 359 ships were insignificant is based primarily on the small numbers that we heard of (and saw), and the limited amount of time that the Federation had to prepare its defense. However BoBW part II makes it clear that the Federation was scrambling for every ship they could get just before the battle. Riker points out that the Klingons had warships on their way to help, and that SF command had even thought of asking the Romulans for assistance (they spoke of opening contact with them, presumably to ask them for additional ships). This indicates that SF was grouping every possible ship capable of fighting for the defense of Earth and Sector 001.

The quote is also interesting, however, because it appears to indicate that the Klingon and Romulan fleets would have had time to arrive had they been called for immediately (before Earth was assimilated by the Borg Collective, otherwise the Klingon assistance would be worthless). This means that, not only did the Klingons and Romulans presumably have enough time to marshall their forces and prepare them to leave Klingon and Romulan space, respectively, but also warp to Earth in time to offer some assistance during the conflict. And this in turn presents a problem for the supposition that the Wolf 359 fleet was nearly insignificant: If the Romulan and Klingon forces were capable of reaching Earth in time, then any Federation ships patrolling the Romulan and Klingon neutral zones also should have had time to arrive. Neither the Klingons nor the Romulans has demonstrated a significant speed advantage when compared with Federation ships, and in fact Federation ships consistently appear to be slightly faster than the largest and most powerful Klingon and Romulan warships.

Taken together, these facts appear to indicate that all of the ships that would ordinarily patrol the Neutral Zones were at Wolf 359, or defending Earth and Sector 001 (off-camera). This indicates that all that stands between the Romulans, the Klingons, and conquest of Earth is 40 warships, and in turn presents a problem for rabid-Trekkies who insist on numbers greater than a few thousand warships for each of the big races in the AQ. There is simply no way that a fleet of Romulan warbirds that number into the thousands could possibly be stopped from getting to Earth in a short amount of time. If the Romulans had that many combat capable ships, they should have launched a major offensive against Earth long ago, as it would have been virtually unnoposed (warbirds are better than GCS's, anyway, for combat purposes) by SF, and SF appears so incredibly centralized that the entire UFP may fall apart from such a move, and indeed at the very least their industrial capacity would be shattered. It simply does not make sense for a fleet of a few thousand warships, that considers the Federation its enemy, to withhold a highly lucrative offensive campaign due to the presence of less than 50 Federation warships.

Is there any flaw in this thinking? Can these incredibly small fleet numbers be reconciled with the lack of a Romulan offensive? How is this possible unless we alter our understanding of the UFP and Romulan/Klingon political and military situation? Is there some contradiction that I am not seeing, or is this a significant issue for claims of military fleets numbering into the tens of thousands for each of the major powers in ST? Any ideas on this would be helpful.

[Ted C]

In Starfleet's defense, they only had a few days at most to scramble a defense when the got their first signs of an approaching Borg cube. Various statements have indicated that it can take days or weeks even for a fast ship to get from one system to another at warp speeds.

On the other hand, it says a lot about the Federation's combat readiness and the kind of garrison's they keep around their important planets. Assuming that those 40 ships were the defensive garrison for their most important system (a generous assumption, since they pulled in every ship that could get there in time), then their whole fleet probably numbers less than 6000 ships (the max if you assume that every one of their 150 member worlds has a 40-ship defensive fleet; again very generous).

This poor showing of Federation ships in a crisis situation speaks volumes about what would happen to them if they were attacked by an enemy that can easily outdistance them on a strategic scale.

[Master of Ossus]

In Starfleet's defense, they only had a few days at most to scramble a defense when the got their first signs of an approaching Borg cube. Various statements have indicated that it can take days or weeks even for a fast ship to get from one system to another at warp speeds.

The point is that they had enough time to phone the Klingons and ask them to send ships, and then the Klingons had time to presumably ready those ships and move them to Earth before the battle began. Those few days should, therefore, have been enough time to mobilize the Federation forces patrolling the Klingon and Romulan neutral zones (those ships would, presumably, have been combat-ready, anyway), and move them back to Earth. So either the Federation has no significant military forces patrolling the Neutral Zones, they do but those forces were unable to leave because protecting the border was deemed more important than defending Earth, they do have forces there but they were all part of the 40 ships at Wolf 359 (meaning that they had VERY small fleet numbers), or they have ships there but they are not combat-capable. Those are the answers that I see to this conundrum, and none of them speak highly of the Federation's ability to conduct a war.

[Mr Bean]

In Starfleet's defense, they only had a few days at most to scramble a defense when the got their first signs of an approaching Borg cube. Various statements have indicated that it can take days or weeks even for a fast ship to get from one system to another at warp speeds.

You missed exactly what MoO SAID

THEY EXPECTED KLINGON HELP TO ARIVE IN TIME

Now The Klingon's where much father away than even the Entire Length and Width of Federation Teriroty, Maybe if the Feddy fleet was in the DELTA quatdrent maybe that would make sense but if one can get from Kingon space in time to help, certiantly any Federation ship in Federation Space could get thier in time.


And to your question MoO

Hmm

Three possbilites

1. Out to Lunch, They had the Ships but not the crews to man them
2. More than 39 Ships died already and they have burned up most of thier ships as soon as it entered Federation space
3. Vast project, prehaps some Federation ships where in drydock and/or striped to help with somthing else? Maybe the Federation had most of thier fleet acting as Merchnt men or something else
4. They realy only had 40 ships and after this instutied a huge build-up of Federation Craft and Facilites
5. Q did it

4 is unlikley given the observed build-time later witnesed in DS9 and the problem of where would they get reasources


So I'll go with 5

[Master of Ossus]

I find #2 to be unlikely. The Federation admiral seemed pretty confident about his upcoming engagement. If the Borg had already liquidated a vast number of UFP ships, then he should have either retreated or resorted to completely desperate attacks, and he should have recognized that his fleet stood no chance in a conventional battle like the one seen briefly in DS9.

[Publius]

Perhaps the answer can be found in the Starfleet's oft-noted lack of bellicosity. In "Balance of Terror," it was established that the United Federation maintained a series of outposts on the border of the Neutral Zone with the Romulan Star Empire.

Perhaps the United Federation decided to construct a passive defence system on the Romulan-Federal border, by increasing the number of starbases and outposts on the border? Sufficiently augmented starbases could function as spaceborne fortresses, providing fortification at strategic points along the border.

Whilst such an arrangement would be largely meaningless to the Galactic Empire, the limited strategic mobility of the Alpha and Beta Quadrant powers might actually make such a measure meaningful and efficacious as a passive defence mechanism against Romulan aggression.

It is possible -- though this is an admittedly unsupported speculation -- that the United Federation maintains a string of defensive outposts on its borders with the Klingon Empire and the Romulan Star Empire which are intended to delay any significant incursions into Federal territory until such time as the Starfleet can muster adequate starships to reinforce the point of incursion.

This arrangement would fit the passive mentality of the Starfleet's personnel; and would allow for the consistently low numbers of ships regularly patrolling the borders throughout The Next Generation.

Of course, this suggestion is primarily founded on the presence of outposts on the Romulan-Federal border in "Balance of Terror," and little else. It would be at best partially supported speculation; certainly, it is little more than that.

Publius

[Robert Walper]

I think the overall picture presented was that the Federation simply wasn't prepared for such a direct assault. Virtually all of their other enemies would "declare" a state of war, either officially or by obvious actions. And these same enemies must also gather their fleets ahead of time, something that wouldn't exactly slip under SF's nose(if they have any decent intelligence gathering capabilities, which they apparently do). The problem with the Borg was the extremely limited amount of time they had to prepare, and the technological superiority of the enemy. One cube is apparently equivalent to the entire Federation fleets thrown at it.

As to the Klingon question, I only recall Admiral Hanson saying "the Klingons are sending warships", which in itself, doesn't seem to say much. They weren't available at Wolf359, and certainly weren't available when the cube was in orbit of Earth. My theory is that Starfleet seriously expected their quickly gathered fleet to buy enough time for the Klingons and additional forces to arrive.

[Alyeska]

You have to take several things into consideration with BOBW. First, the Federation was in a time of peace, and had already fought a stalling action against the Cardiassians (seems the Federation fought to maintain while the Cardassians attempted to invade, neither really succeded). There had been no major conflict, the largest ships in the fleet were quite uncommon (hand full of Nebula's and Galaxies, not all that many Ambassadors). The fact that the majority of the ships that engaged the Borg were experimental designs and rarely seen configurations speaks a volume about just how well prepared the Federation trully was. It is almost like the Federation was confident enough in dealing with the Borg that they left their strategic assets in place while pulling together a collection of non-critical ships (some expiremental, some strange designs, not all that many top of the line ships). The fact that in FC the Federation was able to call together just as many ships in a few days time (max) compared to the "planning" that happened in BOBW would seem to show that SF was not taking the entire event as seriously as they should have been.

[Master of Ossus]

You have to take several things into consideration with BOBW. First, the Federation was in a time of peace, and had already fought a stalling action against the Cardiassians (seems the Federation fought to maintain while the Cardassians attempted to invade, neither really succeded). There had been no major conflict, the largest ships in the fleet were quite uncommon (hand full of Nebula's and Galaxies, not all that many Ambassadors). The fact that the majority of the ships that engaged the Borg were experimental designs and rarely seen configurations speaks a volume about just how well prepared the Federation trully was. It is almost like the Federation was confident enough in dealing with the Borg that they left their strategic assets in place while pulling together a collection of non-critical ships (some expiremental, some strange designs, not all that many top of the line ships). The fact that in FC the Federation was able to call together just as many ships in a few days time (max) compared to the "planning" that happened in BOBW would seem to show that SF was not taking the entire event as seriously as they should have been.

So, they were confident in their victory and sent for Klingon aid, and even thought of sending for Romulan aid? That does not speak of a confident SF. It speaks of a desperate SF that has no ships on the Romulan/Klingon borders. They were clearly taking the thing seriously. Are you seriously suggesting that they requested forces from their traditional enemies while LEAVING other forces that they had available in place, without even having them make an attempt to engage the enemy? That does not speak of a SF that is taking the Borg too lightly. That is a SF that cannot respond to danger, whether due to resource availability or resource type is unclear. This is clearly not a capable SF that is protecting Earth.

In regards to Robert Walper's claim: If the numbers that Trek cultists claim are accurate (ie. 2,000-10,000 Romulan warbirds), then the Romulans should EASILY be able to gather a force of 40-50 warships without SF knowing about it. SF has almost no intelligence assets in the Romulan Empire. They have a very limited ability to track cloaked ships. If the Romulans were merely to cloak all of their warships, they would leave SF with only the barest hint of their fleet locations. 40-50 D'Derix class ships could be easily assembled, and they could rush Earth without any problems. SF would have only a few days' warning, and would be crushed industrially, if not politically or economically. The fact that the Romulans were unable to do this indicates that Trekkies have grossly inflated the fleet size of the TNG Federation and its rival powers.

[Isolder74]

Incedentally someone on the E-D's bridge was able to start naming of the ships call names from just looking at the wrecks. This would seem to indicate that the Feds don't have a massive fleet in the tens of thousands if fed ships are recognizable at almost just a glance.

[Coalition]

Didn't they also say that the Borg arrived early, and that they were still rebuilding the fleet?

Essentially, their major ships were all half-rebuilt, and the 40 ships used were all the ones available at the time. Now if the Borg had been polite, and waited, they could have gotten more.

But politeness is irrelevant.

[Moonshadow]

"Incedentally someone on the E-D's bridge was able to start naming of the ships call names from just looking at the wrecks. This would seem to indicate that the Feds don't have a massive fleet in the tens of thousands if fed ships are recognizable at almost just a glance."

well she probably knew what ships were sent ahead of time. Most of the ships were the only one of their class that was sent to the battle. Heres a good question though. Why didn't they send More Galaxies and Nebulas in the fight? There was only one Nebula sent to the fight and a shitload of old ships like Excelciors and Mirandas as well as some smaller TNG class ships( like the Freedom Class and the New Orleans Class)

[Vertigo1]

Its also quite possible that:

1. More ships were available, but couldn't reach Earth within the six day window. Given the large territory the Federation posesses, and the slowness of warp, this shouldn't be a big suprise.
2. The federation took a BIG loss in the Fed-Carassian war and was still in the process of rebuilding the fleets.
3. They didn't see the need for building huge fleets of warships when there was nobody to fight. Hense the experimental designs we saw in BOBW part 2 (which were really rejected designs for the Enterprise-D).

[The Yosemite Bear]

Sorry my viewing of BoBW was forever jacked by my College Dormmies having radio wars at the time. Last thing I remember was something about the Borg being drowned out by Metallica and The Fed Crews being drowned out by Gansta Rap. Which is why I was hoping that the Borg would win.

[Patrick Degan]

What it seems to come down to is that the Federation does not (or did not at the time) maintain core defence fleets or large warship concentrations homeported at the planets controlling key sectors of Fed territory. Remember that at the time of the First Borg Incursion, Starfleet was also having to deal with the growing Romulan millitancy ("The Enemy", "The Defector"), maintaining patrol of sectors bordering the Tholian Assembly, and also seemed to be keeping watch on the Federation/Cardassian DMZ.

Starfleet always seems not to maintain large warship concentrations within their core systems (the "only staship in the quadrant" syndrome) and instead maintains a loose deployment covering the large radius of Federaiton exploration territory. The dialogue from "Best Of Both Worlds" clearly indicates that scraping together 40 starships for a fleet to intercept the Borg cubeship was a strain on available resources, and the Sector 001 defences were virtually non-existent.

The Federation may have commenced a large-scale military buildup after the First Borg Incursion which was stepped up when the Cardassians grew increasingly millitant and when the new threat of the Dominion appeared, which flared into open warfare. It was in this period that the smaller, combat-dedicated designs of the Akira, Steamrunner, Norway, and Intrepid classes came into being.

Despite what a lot of TrekCultists like to believe, there is nothing in the canon to indicate that Starfleet or the other AQ/BQ powers have the very large fleet numbers which are often attributed to them. Starfleet was considerably larger than during the First Borg Incursion, but in the Dominion War, it was a strain on their resources to assemble the 600-ship fleet assigned to retake the Bajor system in "Sacrifice Of Angels", and Betazed fell to the Dominion when the defence fleet assigned to protect the planet went off on training manoeuvers. The Dominion may have had the largest fleet in the galaxy (after the Borg) at one time, but after the loss of 2800 ships in the Wormhole they never attempted to mount a large-scale invasion from the Gamma Quadrant again and their hopes for victory depended upon their AQ shipbuilding (which the Cardassians provided the heavy muscle for) and later the alliance with the Breen —particularly after Romulus joined the war on the Federation/Klingon side.

Several canon examples from TOS and TNG indicate that there seem to be no more than ten ships assigned to the vicinity of key Federation worlds, which mostly spend their time on deep patrol of their sectors. This could indicate a fleet consisting of about 1500 capital ships as the minimum. This does not count vessels such as the Enterprise which are assigned to deep galactic exploration and patrol. But all in all, we may not be talking about a fleet any larger than 2000 capital ships at the time of the First Borg Incursion —all scattered throughout Federation territory and which was under strain to maintain frontier defence for two years after Wolf 359 ("The Wounded", "Redemption").

[Sea Skimmer]

This would seem to also favor the warp highway explanation. Warp is faster in some areas. If such a highway lead towards Klingon space then Klingon ships might arrive faster then Federation ships which where in fact closer but hampered by only having "normal" warp speeds.

[Dark Primus]

Im wondering if the Klingons and Romulans really went to Wolf 359.
In BOBW II there were only wreckage of Federation ships on the scene. There might have been Klingon and Romulan ships off screen but then why weren't they mentioned later when they mention Star fleet casulties from that battle was 39 ships and 11,000 casulties, or at least seen in DS9 "Emissary"?

In a VOY episode Voyager ecountering a colony of ex Borg drones, humans, romulans and klingons were among them and one of them stated to be from Wolf 359. And when they hook up a device with Chacotey(sp?) there were a small battle scene from DS9 "Way of the Warrior" If that was suppose to be from Wolf 359 then it was pretty lame.

[Crazy_Vasey]

Perhaps they were trying to hold off the Borg cube with the Wolf 359 fleet and Earth defences while massing a fleet and bringing in reinforcements from other powers? Sounds stupid really when I think about it but it's a possibility that they just underestimated the ability of the borg to slice through their defences.

[tharkûn]

A few more options:
1. Your average UFP ship is modular in design. You can pop out some science bays, crew quarters, whatever and pop in some weapons for a major build up. Your ships are basically outfitted for exploration (hell the E-D is clearly not designed for combat as its primary mission), but in times of war you can swap in the guns and out the useless baggage. Perhaps they had gotten rusty at doing this in a timely fashion.
2. The Federation, Romulans, and Klingons have most of their population right next to each other. By treaty most of their ships are stationed away from each other, relying more on point defense than on ship counts, this makes everyone happy as you have defense, and you know the other guy cannot blitz without first alterning fleet deployment. The vast majority of the fleets are stationed at the edges of the empire away from the major powers. Think about the British and the French Empires. Most of their population was relatively close togethor, but their fleets were scattered across the globe. If the kriegsmarine became a threat, the British could recall ships from India, Australia, etc.

Likewise the Feddies, Romulans, and Klingons might have only 200 ships within striking distance of each other. Relying instead on fixed point defense and time to redeploy in the event of a threat. Remember both of these borders do have disarmament treaties limiting the location and numbers of defensive units.


I'm really not sure where you are going with this MoO, if they have fewer ships then that is just more shipbuilding capacity before the Dominion War, do you honestly think

[Spartan]

tharkûn wrote:

2. The Federation, Romulans, and Klingons have most of their population right next to each other. By treaty most of their ships are stationed away from each other, relying more on point defense than on ship counts, this makes everyone happy as you have defense, and you know the other guy cannot blitz without first alterning fleet deployment. The vast majority of the fleets are stationed at the edges of the empire away from the major powers. Think about the British and the French Empires. Most of their population was relatively close togethor, but their fleets were scattered across the globe. If the kriegsmarine became a threat, the British could recall ships from India, Australia, etc.

Likewise the Feddies, Romulans, and Klingons might have only 200 ships within striking distance of each other. Relying instead on fixed point defense and time to redeploy in the event of a threat. Remember both of these borders do have disarmament treaties limiting the location and numbers of defensive units.

Good point tharkûn! A political justification, is far more likly than any of the other answers. It certainly sounds like something the Fed's would propose during treaty negotiations.

It also explains the low ship numbers we se whenever the Rom cross the NZ in TNG; and the low fleet numbers when Picard set up his blockade during the Klingon Civil War.

[Knife]

Perhaps they were trying to hold off the Borg cube with the Wolf 359 fleet and Earth defences while massing a fleet and bringing in reinforcements from other powers? Sounds stupid really when I think about it but it's a possibility that they just underestimated the ability of the borg to slice through their defences.

My thinking was along this line. Its called defense in depth, they assembled all the ships that could make it to Wolf359 in time to intersept the borg cube in a attempt to stall the enemy while more ships assembled at a different point closer to the enemies target. A economy of force or at best a rear guard action to stall for time to assemble a larger more powerfull fleet to engage the enemy.

[Master of Ossus]

Incedentally someone on the E-D's bridge was able to start naming of the ships call names from just looking at the wrecks. This would seem to indicate that the Feds don't have a massive fleet in the tens of thousands if fed ships are recognizable at almost just a glance.

That may also indicate one of two things: either the ships there were very important to the fleet as a whole, or the ships there were involved in famous experiments or engagements in the past.

[Master of Ossus]

"Incedentally someone on the E-D's bridge was able to start naming of the ships call names from just looking at the wrecks. This would seem to indicate that the Feds don't have a massive fleet in the tens of thousands if fed ships are recognizable at almost just a glance."

well she probably knew what ships were sent ahead of time. Most of the ships were the only one of their class that was sent to the battle. Heres a good question though. Why didn't they send More Galaxies and Nebulas in the fight? There was only one Nebula sent to the fight and a shitload of old ships like Excelciors and Mirandas as well as some smaller TNG class ships( like the Freedom Class and the New Orleans Class)

The answer is self evident: they did not have any additional ships of those classes.

[Master of Ossus]

Its also quite possible that:

1. More ships were available, but couldn't reach Earth within the six day window. Given the large territory the Federation posesses, and the slowness of warp, this shouldn't be a big suprise.
2. The federation took a BIG loss in the Fed-Carassian war and was still in the process of rebuilding the fleets.
3. They didn't see the need for building huge fleets of warships when there was nobody to fight. Hense the experimental designs we saw in BOBW part 2 (which were really rejected designs for the Enterprise-D).

1. But all of their ships from BOTH the Klingon and Romulan borders should have been able to reach the battle in time, easily. In addition, many of their forces from areas around Earth (such as the space stations there) should have been able to provide ships for the battle, even if they were damaged or undergoing retrofits that would preclude their use in less desperate situations.
2. The Federation was never in any danger from the Cardassians. REBEL groups from the Federation would have been able to fight off Cardassia if the Cardassians had not joined the Dominion. In addition, that would mean that MORE ships would have been in and around Earth, albeit not fully functional ones, as SF would have sent ships to Earth Station McKinley, Spacedock, and their other manufacturing/repair yards there to be retrofitted and repaired.
3. So they had NO significant numbers of ships protecting their borders with the Romulans and Klingons?

[Master of Ossus]

What it seems to come down to is that the Federation does not (or did not at the time) maintain core defence fleets or large warship concentrations homeported at the planets controlling key sectors of Fed territory. Remember that at the time of the First Borg Incursion, Starfleet was also having to deal with the growing Romulan millitancy ("The Enemy", "The Defector"), maintaining patrol of sectors bordering the Tholian Assembly, and also seemed to be keeping watch on the Federation/Cardassian DMZ.

Dealing with additional Romulan militancy would actually indicate that the Federation fleet should have been much more powerful, as the ships protecting their Romulan borders should have been able to join the battle.