Trek Fallacy: Yuuzhan Vong "Plasma Balls" & &q

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2002-10-19 04:52pm

"So the weapons the Yuuzhan Vong (Magma missiles) which are directly stated as being molten rock aren't as big a threat as the books make out then?" - Vypr

I've seen in the last couple links to spacebattles that an increasing number of Trekkies think that the Yuuzhan Vong "magma missiles" which have shown affectiveness in damaging New Republic Navy warships. What say all of you?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-19 05:09pm

About what? What needs to be stated, regarding such weapons? Why is it inconsistent?

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2002-10-19 05:12pm

That ships can be damaged by "superheated rock" that can take extended assault by 200 gigaton HTLs.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-19 05:23pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:That ships can be damaged by "superheated rock" that can take extended assault by 200 gigaton HTLs.

They can, but it takes a ridiculous amount of time. Remember in Vector Prime that the X-Wings in Kyp's Dozen were able to withstand hordes of fire from corral skippers without damage until their shields were knocked down. Even then the plasma weapons the YV use took a considerable amount of time to damage their ships. In addition, the "missiles" you refer to are probably traveling at relativistic speeds, the speed at which much of the combat during the NJO takes place.

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2002-10-19 05:24pm

it should be taken into note that those balls move at near .c, coralskippers go at some of 80-90% of .c and the Falcon can outrun them but still the magma missiles and plasma cannon shots go faster.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2002-10-19 05:31pm

I always felt that the magma missiles were just a misnomer/nickname for the bio plasma projectiles "plasma balls".

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-10-19 06:07pm

Erm... in the early parts of the NJO, wasn't one of the biggest Vong threats the fact that they could strip starships of their shields?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-19 06:09pm

Illuminatus Primus wrote:I always felt that the magma missiles were just a misnomer/nickname for the bio plasma projectiles "plasma balls".

No, the two are different weapons that the YV use. Magma missiles travel at extremely high relative velocities, hitting their targets with considerable force. Plasma balls appear to do their damage through a combination of kinetic energy and heat energy. Of the two, missiles seem more powerful, but are only available to capital ships.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-10-19 06:12pm

Well gee, I reside at SB and I have yet to see these claims.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-10-19 06:26pm

Vypr is an idiot of the first order. He's one of those "I don't believe the ICS" whiners and has been bitter ever since the book came out. Any attempt to pierce the shield of delusion he surrounded himself with would be a successful as using an ice pick to dig through neutronium.

They have "magma missiles" and "plasma" weapons both. Sometimes they're interchangable. But there are some distinctions.

Both primary Yuuzhan Vong weapons appear to be projectile/kinetic weapons in nature. "plasma" weapons appear to be their equivalent to turbolasers - "dumb" projectiles fired in line of sight. Magma missiles (and grutchins) appear to be their equivalent of concussion misiles or proton torpedoes (a guided "plasma" weapon, probably.) As has been stated, they appear to travel at relatavistic speeds (not only because the ships do - but the NR weapons are lightspeed, and at the apparent combat ranges NR and YV ships engage at, the YV weapons would likewise have to be relativistic.)

But AS projectile weapons, we have to remember that its more than JUST kinetic energy we have to worry about (remember Mike's discussion on the difference between an energy weapon and a kinetic impactor in his "shield technology page?" http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... index.html) - physical projectiles can be dangerous in more than one way. Even a bit of rock, moving fast enough, can be dangerous (even if its molten or hot).

But we also have to point out that most of these people are probably relying either on memory (if they've read the books), or what others said (if they haven't - a number of trolls frequently base their "arguments" on EU snippets posted by others on the net). Some are probably deliberately misrepresenting it as well

But lets use an ACTUAL EU source. This is from REbel STand, page 2

"As the foremost of the oncoming coralskippers came within firing range, it began unloading a stream of tiny red glows in their direction. Each glow was a couple of kilograms of superheated molten rock, plasma. In the coldness of space, these projectiles would rapidly cool, but during the seconds they remained heated they were deadly weapons capable of burning through starfighter armor as though it were sheet ice."

Hmmm.. it doesn't really tell us exactly "how" hot or superheated they are, but plasmas can be pretty damn hot (Although not neccesarily - but the quote seems to infer that the thermal effects are the primary damage mechanism.) IIRC. This infers that the "thermal" effects of the projectiles would be at least comparable if not greater to kinetic effects (else they would be more dangerous as kinetic impactors) I might also add a couple kilograms for a FIGHTER scale weapon is quite a bit.

Purely for example, lets use the Destiny's Way reference where we know a Coralskipper is moving at "near light" (which for the purposes of this we will infer to be greater than .5c, the minimum) and the quantity measured in "couple kilograms" (assuming at least 2). This incident occured during the second coralskipper pass on the Falcon.

Using Mike's relativity calculator, a 2 kg mass moving at .5c would have an approximate kinetic energy of 2.78e16 joules - easily megaton range (5-6 megatons I think). Thermal effects SHOULD be equivalent - but we also haev to remember that this is a LOW end. And according to the quotes, starfighters are NOT able to survive such effects easily (or at least direct hits) CApital ship weapons are likely to be FAR more destructive.

Besides which, they also neglect the use of dovin basals to rip away shields, which can also hamper defensive capabilities.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-10-19 06:27pm

Alyeska wrote:Well gee, I reside at SB and I have yet to see these claims.

I've seen Vypr using them, but then again Vypr is something of an exception. (Its ounds something like those idiots Lokan and Psyckosama would adopt as well.)

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-10-19 06:28pm

Master of Ossus wrote:
Illuminatus Primus wrote:I always felt that the magma missiles were just a misnomer/nickname for the bio plasma projectiles "plasma balls".
No, the two are different weapons that the YV use. Magma missiles travel at extremely high relative velocities, hitting their targets with considerable force. Plasma balls appear to do their damage through a combination of kinetic energy and heat energy. Of the two, missiles seem more powerful, but are only available to capital ships.

Not quite. IIRC correctly in Star by Star, coralskippers can launch Magama missiles as well (The Sebantyne Barabel triplets were flying in formation and shooting magma missiles launched by the Coralskippers out of space - that was also the 10% of lightspeed reference, incidentally.)

Parallax · Post by **Parallax** » 2002-10-19 06:28pm

Wouldn't a solid weapon (like molten rock, for example) have infinite (or damn near infinite) mass?
If so then it would make a devestating weapon...

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-10-19 06:29pm

Parallax wrote:Wouldn't a solid weapon (like molten rock, for example) have infinite (or damn near infinite) mass?
If so then it would make a devestating weapon...

Er, no. Why would you say that?

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2002-10-19 06:59pm

Connor: The battle between the Falcon and the Coralskippers in Destiny's Way mentioned pretty clearly that the coralskippers in that case were moving at near lightspeed, and still their plasma balls travel faster, i think that some of .75 - .85 would be more reasonable velocity for the magma missiles.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-19 07:51pm

Parallax wrote:Wouldn't a solid weapon (like molten rock, for example) have infinite (or damn near infinite) mass?
If so then it would make a devestating weapon...

Only if it were travelling at VERY close to the speed of light. It would be a devastating weapon, even if it were "only" moving at relativistic speeds.

Parallax · Post by **Parallax** » 2002-10-19 08:54pm

Connor - apologies, I left out 'moving at near C' which sort of made my post a bit harder to comprehend than I intended.
But if you have a solid object moving at even .5 C then it's mass is going to be HUGE and if it hits something then it's going to do damage...

SPOOFE · Post by **SPOOFE** » 2002-10-19 08:58pm

But if you have a solid object moving at even .5 C then it's mass is going to be HUGE and if it hits something then it's going to do damage...

I believe he took that into account when he came up with 5-6 megatons per shot.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-10-19 09:04pm

It would be almost impracitcal (bordering on pseudo-magical) to get near-infinite mass from literal mass. And you'd literally be having to travel, as Ossus said, near c (like .9999+.. depending on how "near" infinite you were getting.) and such mass would be relativistic (the "mass" gained from the energy required to accelerate an object to such high speeds.)

The real problem at this point becomes recoil. Its possible such a weapon's recoil would be impossible for a ship to block.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-10-19 09:05pm

SPOOFE wrote:
But if you have a solid object moving at even .5 C then it's mass is going to be HUGE and if it hits something then it's going to do damage...
I believe he took that into account when he came up with 5-6 megatons per shot.

Mikes relativity calculator does it automatically.

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi · Post by **Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi** » 2002-10-19 09:32pm

If something had near-infinite KE, wouldn't a near-infinite about of energy have to be released to get it moving?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-10-19 09:56pm

Just a little suggestion. Don't judge SB by the actions of a few. Wouldn't be fair to judge SD based on Darkstar now would it?

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-10-19 10:54pm

Alyeska wrote:Just a little suggestion. Don't judge SB by the actions of a few. Wouldn't be fair to judge SD based on Darkstar now would it?

Darkstar is ASVS. And as I recalled, SB does the same thing to ASVS.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-10-19 11:05pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Alyeska wrote:Just a little suggestion. Don't judge SB by the actions of a few. Wouldn't be fair to judge SD based on Darkstar now would it?
Darkstar is ASVS. And as I recalled, SB does the same thing to ASVS.

He might be ASVS, but he seems most well known here at SD.net

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-10-19 11:36pm

Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi wrote:If something had near-infinite KE, wouldn't a near-infinite about of energy have to be released to get it moving?

Yes.