Technology, tech level and use in SW and ST

[Mange]

It's possible that this been discussed earlier, and it's also possible that this doesn't belong in the vs. debate per se, but still...

Trekkies have often claimed that Star Wars uses inferior technology compared to the technology displayed in Star Trek. I have given this some thought, and there are several arguments that can be raised against that claim, some of which I will deal with here (more examples can be found at Mike's site). One must also not forget that ST is science-fiction and SW is space opera (i.e. different emphasis). Since I'm not so versed in Star Wars EU, perhaps other people can come up with some further examples.

The first argument is what I would like to call user-technology harmony. In Star Wars, the characters seldom have any problems in dealing with everyday technology. The technology functions as it's supposed to (unless when it's broken, but that's an other matter). In Star Trek, the seemingly advanced technology seems to be on a constant experimental basis as it's never functions according to their designs. They don't even seem to understand how their own computers work as it's possible for them to somehow aquire intelligence (ref. TNG Emergence). An other excellent example is of course the Holodeck (which Mike deals with).
In Star Wars, the characters are also able to distance themselves from the technology. The examples here would be how droids are looked upon. Of course, R2-D2 and C-3P0 are treated well, but they're viewed as property.
While the Federation only has one android, the consensus is that Data isn't the property of Starfleet, but a sentient being not owned by anyone. We also have the exocomps who developed intelligence, although IIRC, they're not mentioned again.

The other argument could be said to be derived from the first: dangerous technology.
As pointed out, the average Federation citizen as well as the crews of their Starships must feel very uneasy with their technology as something trivial always goes haywayre.
Glimpses of the Federation's future has been shown in Voyager and Enterprise, where the temporal aspect has become dominant. Presumeably, much of the galaxy have been explored and the Federation have instead turned to explore the temporal realm. An idiotic notion in itself, but it's also extremely dangerous. People (such as Daniels in Enterprise) leaves behind information about the future, travels through time seemingly just for the fun of it and upholds the temporal directive. Sigh. What did the writers think?

As I wrote earlier, it's possible that this been discussed earlier, but some input and thoughts would be interesting.

[Deathstalker]

I'll take a stab at this.

Trekkies have often claimed that Star Wars uses inferior technology compared to the technology displayed in Star Trek.

I think this stems from the "look" of both series. It's stupid, because I could point to TOS and laugh at the way things looked there compared to what we have today or see in later sci-fi series. TOS in the '60s tried to glimpse the future with a TV budget, and even if it had more money, was limited by the production values of the day. SW:ANH in the late '70s and ESB and ROTJ in the early '80s had an "industrial" feel, and as Lucas wanted, a used look to spacecraft. Then the various Trek movies are made and then TNG with a slicker look comes along and people equate that to superior technology. The look of TPM and AOTC shows some of the slickness, and Lucas could blow Trek away with visual effects, considering ILM does most of the effects for Trek, but he had to try and keep some continuity with the original movies. The point is that just because it may look good, doesn't mean it's better.

The first argument is what I would like to call user-technology harmony.

SW has it all over ST in this department. A 25,000 year history of spacefaring compared with roughly average 500-600 year history for most of the AQ races means that SW has had a lot of time to work the bugs out.

The other argument could be said to be derived from the first: dangerous technology.

As Mike and others have pointed out, this stems from ST using a tech solution for solving a problem without any testing. At best, if there is time, computer simulations may be run, but on average a solution works. An average Federation citizen is probably quite safe, with the only real danger being a transporter malfunction, and I doubt this rarely happens on planet based systems, which are under constant maintence and with little or no outside interference. Starship crews are another matter entirely, with exploding consoles and plasma ducts everywhere, to say nothing of being a redshirt !

[Praxis]

The bridge panel is particularly amusing. In "Way of the Warrior" the Defiant took hits from a Vorcha while the shields were still up. Bridge panels exploded all around the ship. A crew member DIED. Then they dropped the shields to beam some people out of a cardy ship (Dukat), and got hit again- the shot didn't even get through the armor, no hull breach, yet the bridge burst in flames. They took several more shots before suddenly half the bridge exploded and they reported that the armor had been breached.

It's possible to wipe out half the bridge crew with exploding consoles without even taking down the shields!

[General Zod]

The bridge panel is particularly amusing. In "Way of the Warrior" the Defiant took hits from a Vorcha while the shields were still up. Bridge panels exploded all around the ship. A crew member DIED. Then they dropped the shields to beam some people out of a cardy ship (Dukat), and got hit again- the shot didn't even get through the armor, no hull breach, yet the bridge burst in flames. They took several more shots before suddenly half the bridge exploded and they reported that the armor had been breached.

It's possible to wipe out half the bridge crew with exploding consoles without even taking down the shields!

that's because the federation's never heard of circuit breakers, apparently.

[18-Till-I-Die]

The bridge panel is particularly amusing. In "Way of the Warrior" the Defiant took hits from a Vorcha while the shields were still up. Bridge panels exploded all around the ship. A crew member DIED. Then they dropped the shields to beam some people out of a cardy ship (Dukat), and got hit again- the shot didn't even get through the armor, no hull breach, yet the bridge burst in flames. They took several more shots before suddenly half the bridge exploded and they reported that the armor had been breached.

It's possible to wipe out half the bridge crew with exploding consoles without even taking down the shields!

Oh God really? I must've missed that episode, thank the stars

[Praxis]

Well, that's not that bad, really, in comparison to later episodes such as Starship Down. Jem'Hadar strikes actually DESTROY the bridge, before the shields are even downed. (I've heard from some that Jem Hadar shots pass through shields, however there were no scratches on the Defiant's hull armor and the shots all caused shield flashes, so I must assume they were deflected.)

The hits cause computers to explode, and supports to collapse (crushing half the bridge). Only the main characters (Worf, Dax, and Kira) survived- the rest of the bridge crew was killed and even Sisko's panel exploded and knocked him out for the rest of the battle. Shields and armor were still up.

[Crazedwraith]

. Shields and armor were still up.

Armours always "up" It's not like there going to out there and saw off armour plates just because they're not in battle.

Sorri, just a silly little nitpick.

[Praxis]

. Shields and armor were still up.

Armours always "up" It's not like there going to out there and saw off armour plates just because they're not in battle.

Sorri, just a silly little nitpick.

What I meant was that the armor had not been breached. No holes in it.
Apparently, it was also stated in "Way of the Warrior" that they had ablative armor.

[Crazedwraith]

. Shields and armor were still up.

Armours always "up" It's not like there going to out there and saw off armour plates just because they're not in battle.

Sorri, just a silly little nitpick.

What I meant was that the armor had not been breached. No holes in it.
Apparently, it was also stated in "Way of the Warrior" that they had ablative armor.

I knew what you meant. I was just nitpicking how you said it. Pay it no mind.

[Mange]

I was thinking on something interesting in regards to technology in both Star Trek and Star Wars. In neither of the franchises, you see people wearing cybernetic enhancements (with the exception of Lobot and Luke's cybernetic hand of course).
Could this indicate a philosophical stance?

[Praxis]

What about LaForge?

And as you said, Luke and Lobot. We don't know how many others also had robotic arms or limbs.

[Mange]

What about LaForge?

And as you said, Luke and Lobot. We don't know how many others also had robotic arms or limbs.

Yeah, I forgot LaForge. I was thinking more in line of enhancements that aren't made for medical purposes.

[Praxis]

One thing I noticed, is that in Star Trek, they always have to have people that know exactly how their tech works.
In SW, they just need people that know how to work it.

For example, in modern day life, I don't need to know exactly how a processor transmits data to and from the motherboard, or the amount of transisters on my motherboard.
In Star Trek, you need to know those things to work on a Starship. In Star Wars, I highly doubt Han Solo knows the innermost workings of the Falcon. He knows enough to field repair it, but he doesn't know EXACTLY what concepts it works on, etc, etc- just how to work it.

[Mange]

One thing I noticed, is that in Star Trek, they always have to have people that know exactly how their tech works.
In SW, they just need people that know how to work it.

For example, in modern day life, I don't need to know exactly how a processor transmits data to and from the motherboard, or the amount of transisters on my motherboard.
In Star Trek, you need to know those things to work on a Starship. In Star Wars, I highly doubt Han Solo knows the innermost workings of the Falcon. He knows enough to field repair it, but he doesn't know EXACTLY what concepts it works on, etc, etc- just how to work it.

Exactly! A very good point raised. The more complex it gets, the more difficult it gets to understand exactly how things works. It's also unnecessary to understand it completely since more automated processes would oversee the technology. But since it's evident that the Federation doesn't fully understand their own technology, it's crucial to have experts on board that does.

[ANGELUS]

there's something funny I've noticed in Trek, a single crew member appears to know everything there is to know about his area.
Take Laforge for example, he is an engineer, but what kind of engineer? he can solve any problem that shows up ever! even if it's a software failure in the ship's main computer, or a mechanical problem in the warp core, or a glitch in Data's brain or anything else that the writters come up with. I mean, give me a break! engineering is divided into to many different areas for a single person (with any kind of training) to master them all. They can't think that by saying engineer they will have a guy that can do anything from adjusting a door to creating a time gate (remember first contact?). It's simply impossible.
The same goes for the science officers, the same guy that can learn about allien life forms can do very complicated math equations... like if a single guy can learn everything about every science.

get my point?

[Praxis]

No kidding.

I just saw "The Masterpeice Society", in which a human scientist from a lost human colony from 200 years ago, that didn't have warp or transporters or anything, walked on to the bridge of the enterprise and was helping LaForge with diagnostics and experiments like she'd been there all her life.

[Deathstalker]

I just saw "The Masterpeice Society", in which a human scientist from a lost human colony from 200 years ago, that didn't have warp or transporters or anything, walked on to the bridge of the enterprise and was helping LaForge with diagnostics and experiments like she'd been there all her life.

The only idea I can come up with is that people in the furture are smarter than we are today, just as we are smarter than people 300 years ago. The Federation teaches calculus in the 5th or 6th grade, and I have a college degree and only took algebra and statistics. I've noticed that it appears average humans in TNG can speed read and absorb the information. LaForge may seem to know alot because that's all he does. I bet he devours tech manuals and because all the ships systems are linked togther, he needs to know everything. It is possible that if he doesn't know it, he can call up the manual and speed read through it. As for the woman Praxis mentioned, it is possible she had some time to look at a computer that brought her up to speed, much as Khan did when he first came aboard Kirk's ship.

[Praxis]

The only idea I can come up with is that people in the furture are smarter than we are today, just as we are smarter than people 300 years ago. The Federation teaches calculus in the 5th or 6th grade, and I have a college degree and only took algebra and statistics. I've noticed that it appears average humans in TNG can speed read and absorb the information. LaForge may seem to know alot because that's all he does. I bet he devours tech manuals and because all the ships systems are linked togther, he needs to know everything. It is possible that if he doesn't know it, he can call up the manual and speed read through it. As for the woman Praxis mentioned, it is possible she had some time to look at a computer that brought her up to speed, much as Khan did when he first came aboard Kirk's ship.

We are not *smarter* than people 300 years ago, we just learn more when we're young.

If you transported an infant from 300 years ago, just after being born, and told him he had been born now instead of them, he could likely be just as smart as modern people.
Besides, a lot of modern people are rather stupid

[Enforcer Talen]

not so much stupid, just spent all their time watching teletubbies and spongebob.

[Mange]

People today aren't smarter today than they were 300 years ago. In fact, we're not smarter than the average Cro Magnon. What's different is that we've made great scientific advances and that the information is much more widely accessible today.

Now on to an other matter. I'd like to expand on a matter I touched earlier. In both Star Trek and Star Wars, personal meetings (whenever possible) seems to be the prefered way of communicating. I was especially thinking about the Romulan Senate (as seen in Nemesis) and the Senate (from the Star Wars Prequels). Could this also be a way to distance one self from technology?

[jawbertsc]

I pretty much read a lot of the EU novels and loved them until NJO came out but I have a hard time rating star wars technology over star trek. The teleporter is a huge edge when it comes to tech as well as the material fabricators are. In medicine I prefer the fancy bio bed to getting dunked in bacta any day. The problem with Star Trek is there’s no real continuity between any of the series. Most of the current producers including my personal nemesis Brannon Bragga don’t give a crap about TOS. But if you do a novel count of those that I own between star wars and star trek you find about 15 SW to 1 ST and that’s a real old and beat up one at that

[Praxis]

I pretty much read a lot of the EU novels and loved them until NJO came out but I have a hard time rating star wars technology over star trek.

Have you actually read StarDestroyer.net's main section?

The teleporter is a huge edge when it comes to tech

Not at all. They can't beam through:
1) Shields
2) Natural ore that is lying all over the place
3) Nebulas, natural gas in space, gas giants
4) Heavy armor
5) Almost any kind of electrical or magnetic interference

In short, they're almost useless unless you're boarding a crippled ship or beaming down to a planet. In combat? No use at all.

as well as the material fabricators are.

Not at all. The replicators require an EXACT knowledge of exactly how things are produced, down to each molecule. And even then, they damage DNA and leave little molecular gaps.
On the other hand, in NJO they were able to replicate a yuuzhan vong chemical substance without even understanding how it worked.

The difference is, in Star Trek, everyone is given replicators, and uses them for mundane things ike food. In Star Wars, they're only used in manufacturing plants and controlled by the government. You don't want every old joe to be able to replicate an army of battledroids, after all...

In medicine I prefer the fancy bio bed to getting dunked in bacta any day.

Certainly not. Bacta is practicaly an ultra-cure. It fixes almost ANYTHING.
Consider. Corran Horn has broken his back in several books, punctured a few vital organs, been poisoned, etc. Bacta and a little medical treatment fixes it every time.
Yet, when Worf breaks his back, there is nothing Starfleet's brightest medics can do for him, declaring him paralyzed for life.

Nog gets his leg shot, and they have to get him to a hospital soon or he'll permanently lose his leg and not be able to get a replacement. Even though the leg is attached they still have to amputate. A good bacta dunking and neural repairs, or in worst case, a robotic foot, would have fixed this in Star Wars.

I'll take Star Wars medicine, thank you.

[jawbertsc]

To answer your question yes I did so? The problem I have with Star Trek is that most of there technology is used as plot devices. They made teleportation break easily because if it was perfect it would ruin a bunch of story lines. I read a bit about ST script writing and a lot of writers don’t have a clue about technology from what I was able to follow. In some scripts writers have been known to write insert techno-babble here. I don’t take anything from your average ST serious it’s way to hard for me to. I just remembered many ST characters bitch about the taste of bacta. My comments were more of a joke that anything else. Relax and breath you will live longer that way.

[jawbertsc]

Mke that SW not St complaining about the taste of Bacta.

[Kamakazie Sith]

To answer your question yes I did so? The problem I have with Star Trek is that most of there technology is used as plot devices. They made teleportation break easily because if it was perfect it would ruin a bunch of story lines. I read a bit about ST script writing and a lot of writers don’t have a clue about technology from what I was able to follow. In some scripts writers have been known to write insert techno-babble here. I don’t take anything from your average ST serious it’s way to hard for me to. I just remembered many ST characters bitch about the taste of bacta. My comments were more of a joke that anything else. Relax and breath you will live longer that way.

That might be true but in these debates those episodes show that ST transporters are easily blocked.