Can the Empire build a Sovereign ?

[Sarevok]

So it is pretty clear that the UFP cant build an ISD, the technological disparity is too great. But what about the opposite ? Can the Empire build a Sovereign class starship ?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

More than likely.

[Gandalf]

They don't have transportation technology, so that may hold them back.

[andrewgpaul]

In that case, they could build one, without the transporters (and possibly no replicators in the mess, and hyperdrive instead of warp engines). Now the questio is, why would they want to? Maybe one of ths hipbuilding firms could market it as a 'sports-starship' for rich civilians?

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

In that case, they could build one, without the transporters (and possibly no replicators in the mess, and hyperdrive instead of warp engines). Now the questio is, why would they want to? Maybe one of ths hipbuilding firms could market it as a 'sports-starship' for rich civilians?

IIRC most Rebel capital ships are nothing more than converted luxury liners. Now the question is: in which market segment the SW-built Sovereign will be; relative to other civilian ships already existing in SW galaxies? Will it be truly luxury ship for the rich, or merely "economy ship" for a starting family?

[Eleas]

So it is pretty clear that the UFP cant build an ISD, the technological disparity is too great. But what about the opposite ? Can the Empire build a Sovereign class starship ?

Depends. What do they know about it? If all they know is a few esoteric ideas on warp drives and how the Sovereign supposedly uses some kind of energized plasma, it would be a mind-numbingly expensive project just to figure out how this replica was supposed to be built.

And even at the best of times, forcing yourself to disregard your modern tools and ideas is never easy.

However, if the Imp technicians and engineers were allowed to substitute freely with contemporary imperial small parts and the like and just build a functional replica, and had blueprints, I foresee no insurmountable or even great problem. Of course, my knowledge of actual engineering can be summed up by the fingers of a propeller mechanic's left hand, but still...

[Eleas]

IIRC most Rebel capital ships are nothing more than converted luxury liners. Now the question is: in which market segment the SW-built Sovereign will be; relative to other civilian ships already existing in SW galaxies? Will it be truly luxury ship for the rich, or merely "economy ship" for a starting family?

Doubtful, but a fun picture. I shudder to think of how they'd market the thing. It'd be like selling one of those vintage chromed cars whose sleek-yet-quaint looks disguise the fact that it has exactly two and a half cylinders and draws a gallon of petrol every other second.

Sorry, that analogy wasn't quite correct - I meant nitroglycerine, of course. At least you can take comfort in the fact that the fuel tank's deep - that's because most of the nitro is kept in a secondary chamber that doubles as a shock absorber housing. But worry not - fickle fate will not betray you. As long as the engine's running, the highly volatile fuel is kept in place by powerful electronic magnets. Nothing can go wrong... - go wrong... - go wrong...

Hell, I'm convinced now - I'd buy one just for the excitement it'd bring me. Every single day would be bright and gleaming, every hour'd see me alive with the incredible thrill of constantly surviving insurmountable odds. Cause as long as I'm still alive aboard the bridge of the Sovereign, I know I'm one lucky bastard. It'd be sweet.

[General Zod]

i can't see anyone in the sw galaxy wanting to buy one outside of the sake of a collectors piece of something similar. Compared to SW vessels ST ships require ungodly high maintenance and years of special training to operate properly. In comparison sw vessels, save for the freaking huge capital ships, require very little maintenance save for what you'd do to a car, are vastly more efficient in terms of power consumption and give you greater speed than any federation ship would.

[SirNitram]

W...T....F. Why would they try and build a Sovereign? Half the technology wouldn't have been present, if it ever was present, in the Imperial territories for over twenty five thousand years. Why the HELL do we want to ask if the Imperials can build something with the equivalent of Ancient Egyptian tools and gear?

[LordShaithis]

Asking if the Empire could build a Sovereign is like asking if the modern US Navy could build a sail-driven wooden frigate. They could eventually, but the lack of appropriate infrastructure and training would make it an enormous effort to build a very inferior ship.

[Tech^salvager]

Only two reason I can think of.
1 for the historic value.
2 If they wanted to do a sneak attack on the feds using that ship with theie better tech attached.

[NecronLord]

Darth Vader takes up a hobby, much to Piett's relief, in anthropology and primative warships.

Happy?

[brianeyci]

No.

1. No transporters
2. No replicators
3. No warp drive
4. No phaser array
5. Something nobody has mentioned yet -- no holodeck
6. Probably a lot of other things that Star Trek has that Star Wars doesn't that I'm forgetting.

The problem with what a lot of you are saying, is that Star Trek technology would be a stepping stone into Star Wars technology. Like, "the Empire could create phasers and Star Trek shielding because they had to have created the ancient Star Trek tech first". We get no indication of that at all. The question is like asking "Could Species 8472 create Federation tech?" Sure Species 8472 has superior technology to the Federation, but it doesn't mean they can create a Sovereign.

The Empire would have to start from scratch in many respects. We haven't seen holodeck mastery on the level of Star Trek in Star Wars (correct me if I am wrong). If you simply put hyperdrive in instead of warp drive, took out the replicators, took out the holodeck, etc. etc, it wouldn't be a Sovereign anymore.

On the flip side, the biggest advantage would be the holodeck. Wow, why fly around the universe when you can hide away in your Sovereign and do whatever you want in your holodeck? A civilian's dream!

Brian

[SirNitram]

No.

1. No transporters

'Teleport Rings' exist, so if we are assuming they're pulling out all the stops, yes, they can duplicate this.

2. No replicators

Imperial Duplicators.

3. No warp drive

Mass lightening tech DOES exist(Tatooine Ghost), gravity warping tech DOES exist(Interdictors), ergo they can kitbash something like a Alucubrrie Warp Drive.

4. No phaser array

Turbolasers with wide beams will work just fine.

5. Something nobody has mentioned yet -- no holodeck

Bullcrap. Hologram Fun World had holodeck-quality simulation.

[General Zod]

1. No transporters
2. No replicators
3. No warp drive
4. No phaser array
5. Something nobody has mentioned yet -- no holodeck
6. Probably a lot of other things that Star Trek has that Star Wars doesn't that I'm forgetting.

the vast majority of this is relatively unimportant to determining a starships class. transporters are useful, but ultimately irrelevant to the ship's overall function.

replicators are equally useful but irrelevant.

warp drive may be important to a degree, but why bother with a warp system that's vastly inferior to hyperdrive?

as far as phasers go, who needs them when you have 200GT turbolasers?

the holodeck is completely unimportant in any fashion whatsoever to the class of a ship. however i don't see that building a holodeck would be much of an engineering problem for the empire. they have force fields and holograms. it's simply a matter of combining the two.

[brianeyci]

Duplicators, Teleport Rings, Wide-Beam turbolasers Hologram Fun World... EU? Well I wasn't familiar with all that stuff. And do we know how good the holograms were in Hologram Fun World? Whether the "Teleport Rings" could transport without the presence of a teleport pad? How good were the Duplicators? Have we seen wide-beam turbolasers before?

The point is, if the Empire wanted to make an accurate simulation of a Sovereign, ignoring things like the holodeck because "it isn't necessary" is just a cop-out. Why is it necessary to build a Sovereign in the first place? To pretend to be a Federation vessel? Federation vessels have their own friend-foe detection protocols, it would be silly to do this. The only reason why I can think you would want to do this is for historical value. If you want to make a Sovereign, you make a Sovereign, phaser banks and all, or it isn't really a Sovereign and is just some sort of really slow ISD.

If you say that all you want to do is create a "shell" so that Federation vessels think that it is a Sovereign -- well then, Star Trek can create a "shell" of an ISD as well, looking like an ISD, and just moving really slow.

The Empire has yet to demonstrate force field technology mastery at the level of the Federation. Federation ships like the Sovereign don't use blast doors -- they use force fields. As well, in the holodeck, the force fields would have to projected independent of an emitter, to a conforming shape around what you are trying to simulate. Can Wars do this? Not to mention that all the holograms we have seen are black and white flickering affairs.

Brian

[Eleas]

W...T....F. Why would they try and build a Sovereign? Half the technology wouldn't have been present, if it ever was present, in the Imperial territories for over twenty five thousand years. Why the HELL do we want to ask if the Imperials can build something with the equivalent of Ancient Egyptian tools and gear?

For the same reason Thor Heyerdahl did, perhaps? I just thought the similarities were striking.

[SirNitram]

Duplicators, Teleport Rings, Wide-Beam turbolasers Hologram Fun World... EU? Well I wasn't familiar with all that stuff. And do we know how good the holograms were in Hologram Fun World?

Good enough to fool all those within but Jedi, as I recall.. And it used Duplicators to make some objects inside.

Whether the "Teleport Rings" could transport without the presence of a teleport pad?

I don't recall, but it'd do the job. And they matter little in the function of the ship anyways.

How good were the Duplicators?

No recorded cases of them being unable to copy rain water.

Have we seen wide-beam turbolasers before?

That's a joke against 'wide beam phasers', which are similarly absent except for stun-only charges. But yes, there's continuous beam TL's.

And where the fuck are you getting this 'They can't make force fields as well as the Feds!' bullcrap? Your own ass?

[Tech^salvager]

And where the fuck are you getting this 'They can't make force fields as well as the Feds!' bullcrap? Your own ass?

I think he means how the feds have all their ship windows using force fields instead of glass

[Duken]

Duplicators, Teleport Rings, Wide-Beam turbolasers Hologram Fun World... EU? Well I wasn't familiar with all that stuff. And do we know how good the holograms were in Hologram Fun World?

Hologram Fun World is EU. Han and Leia went there for their honeymoon. Leia ran a simulation of Alderann from her memories.(?)
----
from the EGWT
"The projector incorporates remarkable advances in image output, pojection density, and light manipulation to create a lifelike hologram image that appears real absolutely real; that is, until someone tries to trouch the hologram and that person's hand passes right through the image!

Despite such dramatic examples, hologram image disguisers are most often used in amusement park rides, called immersion holograpic environments, featured of entertainment parks such as Hologram Fun World. There holoshrouds are connected to power generators that permit long-term use and are programmed to present fanciful-characters and creatures. Attractions use holographic simulations to re-create exotic environments faithfully and provide total sensory feedback in a make-believe environment that is almost indistinguishable from reality."

[SirNitram]

And where the fuck are you getting this 'They can't make force fields as well as the Feds!' bullcrap? Your own ass?

I think he means how the feds have all their ship windows using force fields instead of glass

And this means they're better at making forcefields... HOW?

[Lord Revan]

And this means they're better at making forcefields... HOW?

He's A darkstar follower, so logic is not something you can expect (and I think he belives, that since SW doesn't use forcefields so often their forcefield tech must be worse.

[Eleas]

Duplicators, Teleport Rings, Wide-Beam turbolasers Hologram Fun World... EU? Well I wasn't familiar with all that stuff. And do we know how good the holograms were in Hologram Fun World?

Yes, we do.

Whether the "Teleport Rings" could transport without the presence of a teleport pad?

Yes, we do.

How good were the Duplicators? Have we seen wide-beam turbolasers before?

Neither have we seen a decent omelet in ST. That must mean their culinary technology is insufficient for the task at hand. I must say I am both compelled and intrigued by this new brand of logic. It lets me say anything, and win!

Dropping sarcasm for a moment, there is no evidence for shipboard wide-beam phasers. Nor that they would ever be useful. And to evaluate the effectiveness of Turbolasers based on how many tricks it can perform just isn't the way to go about things. It would have been if we were talking about a Swiss army knife. Trouble is, we don't; it's a weapon.

The point is, if the Empire wanted to make an accurate simulation of a Sovereign, ignoring things like the holodeck because "it isn't necessary" is just a cop-out. Why is it necessary to build a Sovereign in the first place? To pretend to be a Federation vessel? Federation vessels have their own friend-foe detection protocols, it would be silly to do this.

I agree. The idea is as plausible as having the school psycho infiltrate kindergarten "in order to determine just how dangerous they are to me." It's easier just to take a five second look, sigh, and jot down: "I'm gonna need some more gas for the chainsaw, or this is gonna turn out really embarrassing."

If you really really really need the ship, just steal one.

The only reason why I can think you would want to do this is for historical value. If you want to make a Sovereign, you make a Sovereign, phaser banks and all, or it isn't really a Sovereign and is just some sort of really slow ISD.

Really slow, really small. Don't forget that the volume is around 1/10th of an ISD. Really, I think we should compare it to a Loronar Strike cruiser.

If you say that all you want to do is create a "shell" so that Federation vessels think that it is a Sovereign -- well then, Star Trek can create a "shell" of an ISD as well, looking like an ISD, and just moving really slow.

We haven't any evidence that the Federation is capable of creating moving ships that large, actually. They might conceivably do it, but how would they mimic the unique emissions signature of the ISD? The intensity of the exhaust emissions alone wouls be a daunting task to mimic.

The Empire has yet to demonstrate force field technology mastery at the level of the Federation. Federation ships like the Sovereign don't use blast doors -- they use force fields.

If by "mastery", you mean to use and fail, then I feel I have to agree. Not before, though. And the use of Force Fields as blast doors isn't evidence of great technology, but of rampant stupidity.

As well, in the holodeck, the force fields would have to projected independent of an emitter, to a conforming shape around what you are trying to simulate. Can Wars do this? Not to mention that all the holograms we have seen are black and white flickering affairs.

Allright, in turn: Please provide proof that this is how the holodeck operates? There are numerous example of advanced SW field technology. Finally, you're wrong. There have been a lot of very good holograms in SW - there are holograms around that fool the eye, from very small generators. The black and white flickering affairs, as you call them, are due to the Holonet or the hypercomm.

[The Silence and I]

Le sigh.
You don't use turbolasers, you use phasers--it won't be a Sovereign otherwise. Same with the holodeck, the warp drive, the extensive forcefield system, masslightening, SIF, plasma conduits--if you cop out and say "well this SW tech is better, we'll use it instead," then you are not making a Sovereign, just something that looks like one.
Now, collimated phaser arrays, to the very best of my knowledge, have no parallel in SW. A continuous turbolaser is not a phaser, nor does it resemble a collimated phaser array, and you know it.
Duken has offered information on the best holographic technology SW has to offer; guess what? You can't touch it. Sorry, gotta start from scratch, Federation has another piece of tech you have to reinvent.
Duplicators, well I imagine those are similar enough to allow use, but there is the chance they don't operate on similar principles, in which case you have to start over.
Transporters; I remember EGWT's article on that transportation thingy, it was nothing like a transporter--first, no one knew how it worked, second it required two rings, like a stargate, third it was less reliable than transporters (this part can be allieviated by allocation of funds for better power sources). Again, this is nothing like Federation technology, you can't use it.
Warp drive; so SW has mass-lightening, great. So they have gravity manipulation, great. That does not come close to meaning they have warp drive--fact is, they will have to spend great effort to design and build a warp drive.

[SirNitram]

Le sigh.
You don't use turbolasers, you use phasers--it won't be a Sovereign otherwise.

So in other words the entire thing is stupidly rigged and should never have been posted. Piss off.