The SW OS resident Trekkie.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2004-10-30 07:01pm

The Star Wars.com Forums: A setting which is subject to such open distain among tech-minded fans that many have given up. I personally have tried my best to cope. For the most part I try to keep the mods out of my hair since they all seem to be mindless followers of the Admins, lashing out at the slightest mention of the name "Saxton" (no doubt Hidalgo carefully picked such individuals....).

In any case, the sw.c boards is home to a SW vs ST thread which was quite civil, and everyone was in happy agreement: "Star Wars, of course would win" we all concurred, be it a blind following of our favorite Sci-Fi franchise, an actual knowledge that SW would indeed win, or a combination of the two, we all agreed "Trek doesn't stand a chance."

Then, along comes a certain poster who answers to the name of "Dark Master Jay." He came in stating that SW would not in fact win, that, in fact the Federation would easily triumph over the Empire. We all politely put his arguements down, and he seemed to leave for a time, and we congratulated ourselves on educating this unfortunate soul. Then, however, DMJ returned, this time ranting, that he was correct and we were flawed in our logic. After some debate I came to realize that this poster was the epitamy of the rabid trekkies I'd read about on stardestroyer.net. I read up on Wong's suggestions for dealing with such people, and he reacted with every fallacy one could imagine. For nearly 1,000 pages the arguement has gone back and forth, with our arguements repeatedly being ignored, "rebuted," or personally attacked. We referred him to this site, to Poe's site and others all of which he dismisses as "Star Wars Bible sites." To his credit, he has not brought up Dark Star's site (either he's got enough intelligence to realize that DS' arguements are even worse than his, or he isn't smart enough to try and find "proof" for his arguements.

The mods are no help. "Surely," I thought, " the mods will come and moderate the debate. Surely they can see how reduculously idiotic Dark Master Jay's reasoning skills are" (especially for someone who claims to be in his thirties!). Alas, when moderators such as Dark Moose arrived, he said, the two franchises weren't comparable. He did nothing to suggest that DMJ was a complete idiot. All he did was temporarily lock the thread because "tempers were getting to high." It seems, all the sw.com mods care about is making sure we all stay nice and polite to someone who doesn't deserve it.

So, DMJ continues with his ranting and raving about how "ST leadership is so good, and SW leadership sucks," and "The SSD was taken out by 4 torps and a wayward A-wing" and other such crap.

Is there truly no way to convince people like this that they're wrong? Are truly that dense? Or are they just so stubborn that they cling on with such weak arguements as a crutch? Should I just give up entirely?

Terr Fangbite · Post by **Terr Fangbite** » 2004-10-30 09:48pm

for every reasonable person, there are a thousand complete idiots.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-10-30 09:58pm

Dark Master Jay is so utterly, mind-bogglingly stupid that he is unworthy of the effort. And, yes, he HAS brought up DarkStar's site in the past, only to be rebuffed, only to return to it later and start the cycle over again. He is truly the densest, dumbest, most idiotic Trektard ever--including DarkStar (DarkStar actually has to be somewhat smart in order to come up with his ridiculous arguments). Unfortunately, given the horrid rules under which SW.com operates, people like him are allowed to operate there with all but total impunity. In fact, DMJ was directly responsible for getting one of our members "frozen in carbonite," after DMJ provoked him into flaming by flaming others.

I would suggest that the best thing to do is to return to the moderators and say, "Look, I realize you guys don't like the people he's arguing with, but surely you can realize that DMJ is causing LOTS of problems in this thread, and he has been for ages and ages and ages. I think it would be advisable, at this point, to consider punitive actions against him for his behavior." If they don't accept it, just ignore them. He's not worth any more effort.

Adam Reynolds · Post by **Adam Reynolds** » 2004-10-31 03:43am

I tried to go to the mods but all they said is

I want to make this perfectly clear 2 either side of that exceptionally annoying debate.

As long as no one is flaming, trolling or socking, no one "has" to concede anything. Moreover...concede what? That one person's opinion of fictional statistics is superior to another's? That one person's logic about little plastic spaceships is better?

Give me a freakin break.

I will say this, DMJ, you've been the target of complaints lately. Do what you can to tone it down and not antagonize. If there is anything you are guilty of, it's taunting people into dropping nonsense into Forum Feedback, so do me and you a favor and throw it in neutral occasionally. You may not flame, but you invite flaming. If you do that enough, you're part of the problem.

THAT, however, does not excuse anyone from losing their heads and breaking the rules by making personal attacks.

For everyone in that thread - chill. Discuss ideas, not each other. Discuss, don't bicker.

And wrap your melons around this inevitable truth - there IS NO RIGHT ANSWER. It's friggin fiction.

Get it? Fiction.

Remember - first go posters, then goes thread.

DM out

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-31 03:59am

That sort of bullshit is inevitable in any environment where it's OK to lie but not to "get personal". Think about how perverse that particular set of rules is: your opponent can lie all he likes, and you're never allowed to attack him for doing so, because that would be "personal".

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-10-31 11:04am

Glad to see you here, Nex. You'll like this board a lot more. You can say any motherfuckin' thing you want here (except or death threats). As long as you can back it up!

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-31 11:24am

Lord Poe wrote:Glad to see you here, Nex. You'll like this board a lot more. You can say any motherfuckin' thing you want here (except or death threats). As long as you can back it up!

Just hope nobody backs up the death threats.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2004-10-31 12:48pm

Thanks Poe.

And yes, I agree with you all. The mods do absolutely nothing to help the situation. DM is basically saying "I'm gonna hang around until I have an excuse to lock the thread."

DMJ is now arguing that the Falcon's maneuver to latch onto the Avenger's bridge tower is "impossible"

and that the Empire would lose to the Federation (despite having vastly superior everything!) because they aren't used to going up against an enemy with "thousands of ships."

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-31 12:51pm

We call that the "Wall of Ignorance" around here. In other places it's known as the broken-record syndrome. DMJ is the kind of person who intends to "win" a debate by simply repeating himself, albeit slightly reworded now and then, until the people who keep smacking down his idiotic claims eventually get fed up and move on, thus ceding the field to him and giving him the last word.

In technical terms, I believe this mindset is typically classified by psychologists as "stupid lying asshole".

Trekdestroyer · Post by **Trekdestroyer** » 2004-10-31 12:56pm

I'll be flat out honest with all of you-STAY AWAY FROM SW.COM FORUMS! RUN BEFORE THEY KILL YOU!

This has been a public service annuncement from Trekdestroyer Inc

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2004-10-31 01:54pm

Oh Nex, I sympathize with you. But these kind of fuckers grow in trees, heck you can go to the opposite side of the road from SW.com (e.g ST.com) and find a whole bunch of even greater idiots with the same setting applying that you can lie all you want as long as it doesnt get "personal".

And you'll see near exact clones of this DMJ persona on ST.com forums as well. They all suffer of the "Wall of Ignorance" problem, and they all apply the exact same tactics and arguments (despite them being countered). Heck one of those motherfuckers is stupid enough to actually claim that he can safely dismiss most of SW continuity on the basis that he thinks he can somehow emulate George Lucas. Heck, he thinks that Endor did not have a planetary shield (despite logic and the novelization saying so) but vessels that land on Endor enter inside the projection beam of the shield shown on the hologram and that is why the shield needs to be shut down. The problem with these assholes is that they NEVER learn their lesson, and extremely rarely they quit. When you get tired of responding to the same bullshit for the millionth time, they will claim victory.

Thus is the problem of such mind boggling stupidity.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-10-31 07:31pm

It seems, all the sw.com mods care about is making sure we all stay nice and polite to someone who doesn't deserve it.

That's the way it is on the majority of forums not dedicated to debate. You have to realize, most forums don't expect to have to deal with debate, and/or debate is not their purpose. Therefore their moderators are not debate moderators and usually aren't qualified as such; all they see a bunch of people screaming at each other, which by the rules of your average forum merits thread locking.

Hardy · Post by **Hardy** » 2004-10-31 07:35pm

Thank you Nex! The issue really needed to be brought up.

I first met the guy arguing that the size of the Death Star would be impossible because the Imperials have slow elevators. Refuting the point was rather easy, but I was astonished(albeit, annoyed) by his bullshit later on. (Way too much fiber in his intellectual diet.)

So here's a non-definitive list of his bullshittery:

The ICS is not canon

-The SW.com Databank is infallable

-Turbolasers, superlasers, and blaster bolts cannot penetrate the navigational deflectors on the basis that they are lasers

-They are lasers because they have the word laser in them and resemble typical sci-fi lasers.

To help with the laser campaign he capitalizes the "laser" in "turbolaser" to annoy us

-Once the Borg find a frequency, even the Death Star wouldn't penetrate their shields

Two A-wings took out the Excecutor despite the obvious contradiction from the novels and the script

The Millenium Falcon is representative of SW ships

An event which was described in the novel, but was not shown in the films is a contradiction between sources.

To refute his shield frequency argument, I suggested the analogy of a 1TW searchlight (ignoring momentum) which has multiple wavelengths and multiple frequencies which the Bogd can't adapt to at once. His response:
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... start=9450

Take a look at this gem where he concludes that an iPod has the same operating mechanism as a phonograph because they both play sound (to prove his laser argument):
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... start=9405

Dear God! This guy has an obsession witht he word "pathetic"

He dismisses all evidence from SD.net and Dr. Saxton's site because they are "biased"

And he always introduces the same old "proofs":

Dark Master Jay wrote: I have proved

-The Empire has poor leadership
-the Empire's flagship was taken out with 4 torps and a wayward A-Wing
-The Empire's "Superweapons" are a joke
-That turboLASERS are the evolution of lasers and would then be usless against the Federation
-the Fed. has evolved further in 150 years than the Republic/Empire has in 25,000
-The Fed has better leadership
-the Fed has better ships
-the Federation wins thier wars
shall I go on?

The guy has a complete ignorance of the scientific method as well. He contantly believes that "Author's intent > Objective measurment"
In this recent exchange about Dr. Saxton's scaling of the Executor (he finds the official literature more valuable than the absolute canon)

Dark Master Jay wrote: Um just to let you know that in the first picture those two SD's are the same size, you can measure them yourselves, so right there his calcs. are wrong!

He's referring to the shot in ROTJ with the Executor and two Star Destroyers. Saxton did know that the SDs were the same size, but there was a minor difference in distance to the camera which was indeterminate. So Saxton had to scale them by their apparent size and compare that to the absolute width of the Executor.
http://theforce.net/swtc/daggerdata.html#executor

DMJ actually claimed that his measurements are wrong because they aren't absolute, despite the fact that the nature of the measurements make Dr. Saxton's two conclusions lower and upper limits.

There is way too much bullshit to be fully addressed from the entire two threads, but here are the threads:
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... 86&start=0
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... 26&start=0

As for whether or not he's worth arguing with, I consider him an "intellectual punching bag" for the reason that his Wall of Ignorance always inspires me to find new ways to reason with the asshole. Setting an impossible goal tends to bring out your best.
I had to relearn everything I knew about science and logic(fortunately, I relearned it on this site) to try to debate him which was a futile gesture, but I'm twice as knowledgeable as I was three months ago, thanks to DMJ's stupidity and Wong's Science page(I am working from an online physics instruction to continue on what this site doesn't tell me, however). So there is some benefit to trying to debate him.

Darth Wong wrote: That sort of bullshit is inevitable in any environment where it's OK to lie but not to "get personal". Think about how perverse that particular set of rules is: your opponent can lie all he likes, and you're never allowed to attack him for doing so, because that would be "personal".

After reading that I just had a paradigm shift: The SW.com forums are really a PR establishment for fanwanking, not academic discussion (excluding the Cantina in some cases).
I recall this thread where the mod gave me a fair warning about making an attempt to quantify the minimum height of Coruscant's buildings by using the time of Anakin's freefall in AOTC. She redirected me to a thread which discusses the scientific realism of Star Wars, which was impertinent to my premise of using science to come to conclusions. I objected in Forum Feedback to no avail(I would have continued, but I do value my membership since I have a lot of personal relationships with members in the Cantina).

Alas, when moderators such as Dark Moose arrived, he said, the two franchises weren't comparable.

I remember.
To paraphrase my favorite example of Moose's ignorance:
"It doesn't matter how many terahoochies there are if [Star Wars ships] can't hit [Trek ships]"
Whenever the Moose shows up, I have to find myself kissing DMJ's ass as to not get banned.

He is truly the densest, dumbest, most idiotic Trektard ever--including DarkStar (DarkStar actually has to be somewhat smart in order to come up with his ridiculous arguments).

That's correct. Nobody on the Hate Mail page has shown so much unscientific reasoning, subjectivity, stupidity, or persistence as this guy and still take themselves seriously.
At least Darkstar and Stewie have been shown that they can be reasoned with, despite their idiocy.

I'll be flat out honest with all of you-STAY AWAY FROM SW.COM FORUMS! RUN BEFORE THEY KILL YOU!

Oh, trust me. As long as you follow the rules and don't irk the mods the off-topic forum(Cantina) is a reasonably cool place. It doesn't compare to here, though. More of a hangout for intentionally inane discussion. The academic threads there ussally do get chastised at least once.

Though the top-dog posters in the Cantina hold really strong convictions against fanboys, though dissimilar to our own.

Sorry for the length of the post and the abundance of typos, but this is my first opportunity to freely discuss this guy's idiocy.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-31 07:46pm

Please, Mr. Wong, just once, let us invite this guy here...it would be sooo fun...

Luzifer's right hand · Post by **Luzifer's right hand** » 2004-10-31 07:49pm

Hardy wrote: I remember.
To paraphrase my favorite example of Moose's ignorance:
"It doesn't matter how many terahoochies there are if [Star Wars ships] can't hit [Trek ships]"

Star Trek ships can evade engagements if they stay at warp speeds.
That would be no problem for SW forces though, Federation planets lack the ability to run away

.

Hardy · Post by **Hardy** » 2004-10-31 09:38pm

Praxis wrote:

Please, Mr. Wong, just once, let us invite this guy here...it would be sooo fun...

After the second repetition, it would be a waste of server space.

Though I would love to see how he debates without hiding behind mods.

Star Trek ships can evade engagements if they stay at warp speeds.

They can't stay at warp forever, fortunately.

That would be no problem for SW forces though, Federation planets lack the ability to run away

Which gives me the image of Starfleet warping away from an Imperial Flotilla like a flock of pidgions(sp) after having a stone thrown at them, leaving the planet.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-11-01 12:22am

Hardy wrote:Though I would love to see how he debates without hiding behind mods.

He would whine that people weren't being nice to him and either leave or he would lose horribly. Either way, the mods are only enabling his trolling and idiocy at SW.com.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-11-01 12:28am

Incidentally, how exactly does SW.com define the term "troll?" It's clearly not related to intelligence or the validity of one's posts, but Dark Moose seems to think it's important.

It's pretty clear. Trolls. Socks. Flaming. Telling people to blank off. Simple.

It's an age-old nexus of negativity that requires more mod attention than what it's worth.

That's your final answer on that.

DM out

+http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa? ... 8&tstart=0

I frankly find this palpably ironic.

Hardy · Post by **Hardy** » 2004-11-01 12:53am

Master of Ossus wrote:Incidentally, how exactly does SW.com define the term "troll?" It's clearly not related to intelligence or the validity of one's posts, but Dark Moose seems to think it's important.

[quote="SW.com forum FAQ"]
A "troll" is one who is deliberately antagonizing or posts with the main purpose of getting a negative reaction. Trolling behavior is not permitted.
[/quote]

The definition the regulars have come to know is "anyone who signs up for the sole purpose of posting spam".

He would whine that people weren't being nice to him and either leave or he would lose horribly.

The former is more likely. "That cranium is too strong for reason!"

[/url]

Sonnenburg · Post by **Sonnenburg** » 2004-11-01 12:54am

Adamskywalker007 wrote:I tried to go to the mods but all they said is

I want to make this perfectly clear 2 either side of that exceptionally annoying debate.

As long as no one is flaming, trolling or socking, no one "has" to concede anything. Moreover...concede what? That one person's opinion of fictional statistics is superior to another's? That one person's logic about little plastic spaceships is better?

Give me a freakin break.

I will say this, DMJ, you've been the target of complaints lately. Do what you can to tone it down and not antagonize. If there is anything you are guilty of, it's taunting people into dropping nonsense into Forum Feedback, so do me and you a favor and throw it in neutral occasionally. You may not flame, but you invite flaming. If you do that enough, you're part of the problem.

THAT, however, does not excuse anyone from losing their heads and breaking the rules by making personal attacks.

For everyone in that thread - chill. Discuss ideas, not each other. Discuss, don't bicker.

And wrap your melons around this inevitable truth - there IS NO RIGHT ANSWER. It's friggin fiction.

Get it? Fiction.

Remember - first go posters, then goes thread.

DM out

I wonder how he would react if you put forth a non-technical debate and took an absurd position and defended it long past the point of defeat. Like a David Brin on crack kind of thing about how the underlying thematic message of Star Wars is Aryan superiority and that violence is the only true way to resolve disputes. The more offensive the better. After all "Concede what? That one person's opinion on the film's theme is superior to another's? Give me a freakin' break."

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-11-01 01:18am

Hardy wrote:
A "troll" is one who is deliberately antagonizing or posts with the main purpose of getting a negative reaction. Trolling behavior is not permitted.

That's absurd. What the hell do they think DMJ has been doing?

The definition the regulars have come to know is "anyone who signs up for the sole purpose of posting spam".

Again, this is pretty much what DMJ is doing. There's little difference between saying "+1" and "SW would get its ass kixx0rd by ST!"

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2004-11-01 04:09pm

Praxis wrote:

Please, Mr. Wong, just once, let us invite this guy here...it would be sooo fun...

We've suggested that to him, but he turns us down by saying things like "He's biased," or "he's just gonna flame me!!" Oh boo hoo

Go shit yourself.

Trekdestroyer · Post by **Trekdestroyer** » 2004-11-01 05:32pm

I was once a member at the sw.com and saw the extent of the "debate" that goes on there and I have long since left. There is no "debate" as you all see it, but a bunch of trekkies and warsies posting crap. The moderators have adapted a "hands off" stance and have opened the thread to troll attacks like this one. It was always inevitable and pridictable.
For theose of you who think I am making this up, take my word for it- I was there. You can't make up this kind of experience from imagination. I perfer this board rather than that board.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2004-11-01 05:48pm

The Original Nex wrote:DMJ is now arguing that the Falcon's maneuver to latch onto the Avenger's bridge tower is "impossible" and that the Empire would lose to the Federation (despite having vastly superior everything!) because they aren't used to going up against an enemy with "thousands of ships."

I've tangled with that asshole before. He just ignores anything he doesn't like, insists that all calculations are "made up" and uses nothing but subjective personal preferences. He DID bring up Darkstar's website before, we shot DS's arguments down, and he ignored our rebuttals, repeatedly. Then he would coume back a few days later and just repeat his original bullshit.

He is the epitome of the broken record syndrome and accuses everyone who disagrees with him as mindless followers of SD.net. He insists that ONE mistake on the part of the Imperials constitutes complete incompetance if it turns out to be fatal, but the Federation canbe as stupid as they want, making the same mistake repeatedly but they aren't incompenant at all because the main characters managed to stay alive.

He once tried to argue that R2 isn't a good chess player just because he decided to "let the wookie win".

I'd say I'm surprised that he's still trotting out the "Falcon maneuver was impossible" even though I pointed out that the Federation does much greater deceleration every time they come out of warp. He ignored that as per his typical MO. His great "analysis" of why the Federation has superior mobility was the Defiant was "graceful, almost like a choreographed ballet dancer" while the Falcon would "jerk about". He aparently didn't even realize that quick, jerky movements is clearly evidence of better maneuverability on the Falcon than the slow graceful turns of the Defiant. I pointed it out to him. Again, he ignored it.

Eventually I started flaming the turd for his over-the-top stupidity and mind-numbing stubborness and Dark Moose promptly stepped in and banned me.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2004-11-01 05:52pm

Dark Master Jay wrote: I have proved

-the Empire's flagship was taken out with 4 torps and a wayward A-Wing

He's still touting that lie? I showed him in a previous thread that it was a minimum of 10 shots from the A-wing. What an asshole.