Alderaan Shield Significance

Fleet Admiral Blair · Post by **Fleet Admiral Blair** » 2004-10-30 11:12pm

Why the disagreement over the existence of an Alderaan planetary shield? What is the significance of its presence or abscence? On either side of the debate.

Apologies if I've brought up an overdone topic

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-10-30 11:16pm

Fleet Admiral Blair wrote:Why the disagreement over the existence of an Alderaan planetary shield?

There really is none. DarkStar has consistently argued that it doesn't exist, despite the now clear visual evidence.

What is the significance of its presence or abscence? On either side of the debate.

DarkStar doesn't want SW to have planetary shields for a number of reasons, most significantly because it would cripple any attempts for the UFP to attack SW planets, but more importantly because it somehow would destroy his inane "MCR Theory." No one is really sure how it does that, since no one is really sure what MCR is, but DarkStar depends on the shield not existing so that he can pretend that the DS did not have enough firepower to blow up Alderaan the honest way, and in turn pretend that SW technology is much weaker than it is.

Edit: also, if planetary shields are shown to exist in SW, they also destroy a whole bunch of his other arguments about starships that are meant specifically to destroy shielded planets (ie. torpedo spheres) not existing, and they destroy the crux of his BDZ argument (ie. "If an ISD can destroy a planet's life, why would anyone need a DS?).

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-31 12:01am

Fleet Admiral Blair wrote:Why the disagreement over the existence of an Alderaan planetary shield? What is the significance of its presence or abscence? On either side of the debate.

Apologies if I've brought up an overdone topic

In addition to MoO's post (which covers almost all of it), Darkstar has an incredibly annoying, "Expanded Universe doesn't count!!!" attitude. He claims that planetary shields are only in the EU, and since to him the EU doesn't count, Star Wars doesn't have planetary shield technology.

Alderaan directly disproves this.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2004-10-31 12:41am

As Darth Wong pointed out to him, the Hoth and Endor shields disproves that too. They only covered parts of their respective planets, but one could set up several of them to reach full coverage.

Tech^salvager · Post by **Tech^salvager** » 2004-10-31 01:11am

Praxis wrote:
Fleet Admiral Blair wrote:Why the disagreement over the existence of an Alderaan planetary shield? What is the significance of its presence or abscence? On either side of the debate.

Apologies if I've brought up an overdone topic
In addition to MoO's post (which covers almost all of it), Darkstar has an incredibly annoying, "Expanded Universe doesn't count!!!" attitude. He claims that planetary shields are only in the EU, and since to him the EU doesn't count, Star Wars doesn't have planetary shield technology.

Alderaan directly disproves this.

Sorry if I don't know exactly but didn't hoth have a shield?

StarshipTitanic · Post by **StarshipTitanic** » 2004-10-31 01:18am

Tech^salvager wrote:Sorry if I don't know exactly but didn't hoth have a shield?

They had a theater shield that only protected the area immediately around Echo Base. That's why the Imperials had to land so far away. they entered the shielded area like the droid army in Episode I.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-10-31 01:21am

Tech^salvager wrote:Sorry if I don't know exactly but didn't hoth have a shield?

It had a theater shield, which of course means nothing to DarkStar even though theater shields were seen to be overlapping during the Battle of Naboo.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-10-31 01:04am

Tech^salvager wrote: Sorry if I don't know exactly but didn't hoth have a shield?

Yeah, Hoth had a partial planetary shield. They only made one generator, so it only covered a section of the ground. That's why the Imperials were able to drop their walkers in just outside the edge of the shield and walk around it.

Alderaan had a full shield, covering the whole planet.

Tech^salvager · Post by **Tech^salvager** » 2004-10-31 12:56pm

ok Thanks guys

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-10-31 07:01pm

There's also the point in the ROTJ novelization that indicates on two occasions that both Endor and the Death Star 2 were surrounded by the shield. The movie shows a Rebel holo with only the DS2 shielded during the briefing, but that's hardly a 100% proof (Rebel intelligence being what it was)- furthermore, in the novelization the DS2's shield is described as encompassing both *during* the battle.

Not to mention that the sheer volume of coverage produced by the Endor shield alone (if we assume the Rebel's holo is accurate for a moment) is enough to make planetary shields quite reasonable.

Hardy · Post by **Hardy** » 2004-10-31 09:52pm

Fleet Admiral Blair wrote:Why the disagreement over the existence of an Alderaan planetary shield? What is the significance of its presence or abscence? On either side of the debate.

Apologies if I've brought up an overdone topic

I have a feeling it has to do with that 0.13 second delay in the time when the superlaser "hits" Alderaan and when Alderaan starts blowing up.

We cite that the planetary shield caused that delay. Darkstar believes that the superlaser caused an endothermic reation which is responsible for the delay.

But the actual visual evidence would indicate a shield and shield would have the advantage of Occam's Razor.

In short, it's just a debate about whether or not the Death Star really did expend 1E38 joules to blow up the planet.

So goes my understanding.

Isolder74 · Post by **Isolder74** » 2004-10-31 10:30pm

Star Wars planetary shield make it nearly impossible to seige a advanced Planet with them. In the case of a planet, other then heavily populated Coruscant, would be very hard to starve into submission. With the shield up it would make it even harder! A planet also has the advantage of being able to mount as many power plants as it needs to hold off an attack. Star Wars plants, as seen in Empire, are compact enough to give the planet almost unattackable defenses. That's were the Death Star comes in. It is one thing that has the power to make the shields useless.

UCBooties · Post by **UCBooties** » 2004-11-01 12:27am

I'll take this oppurtunity to bring myself up to speed. The idea of Alderaan having a planetary shield is fairly new isn't it? We infer it only from the delay in planetary explosion correct? I have no wish to refute this observation, but I was wondering if the presence of said shield was corroberated at any time durring the movie dialogue, novelization, or EU literature, since I can not recall such a mention. We're going by observation only right?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2004-11-01 12:35am

UCBooties wrote:I'll take this oppurtunity to bring myself up to speed. The idea of Alderaan having a planetary shield is fairly new isn't it? We infer it only from the delay in planetary explosion correct?

And the fact that it's actually visible in the film, yes. I tend to think that the most recent release, on DVD, shows it more clearly than any previous version.

I have no wish to refute this observation, but I was wondering if the presence of said shield was corroberated at any time durring the movie dialogue, novelization, or EU literature, since I can not recall such a mention. We're going by observation only right?

No. The Novelization also states that Alderaan's defenses were as strong as any in the Galaxy, despite Leia's protest that the planet has no weapons. For both statements to be true, Alderaan would have to have non-weapons based defenses like shields.

DarkSilver · Post by **DarkSilver** » 2004-11-01 01:22am

Truly, as a newcomer to these debates, I would say nothing is gained or lost by the presence/absence of planetary shields in SW.

If such a conflict between the Federation and the Imperials would occur, it would actually make the important planets of either side be pretty damn well secure (I would not say impenetrable, nothing is impenetrable).

Star Trek Technology, in the time of Kirk, proved to have a Planetary Shield System over a Penal Colony (I do not recall if it was a Criminal Penal Colony or a Insane Asylum). Star Wars EU (Timothy Zahn's novels in particular, I beleive it was Heir to the Empire or Dark Force Rising) showed the definate exsistence of planetary shields in the EU (and since the EU C-level Canon and is canon unless contridicted by G-level Canon.

Both would gain the added benefits of such a shield system, neither of these "universes" have a technological limitation which would disclude their exsistence. If anything, I would say Star Wars has the best arguement in it's favor, thier shield technology is 250 centuries in development, it's immense and massive (seems as if all thier technology is), and thus they've had far far longer to develop these kind of planetary defenses.

And while I am here, making my first post, allow me to introduce myself. I am Dark Silver, a fan of both Star Trek and Star Wars. I tend to look upon both in equal light considering thier respective universes, and I enjoy a friendly chat on the subject every so often. I hope to find it here amoung these forums. If I should make a mistake by bringing up a topic already covered in the past, I offer my apology in advance, as I am rather new to the scene.

DarkSilver · Post by **DarkSilver** » 2004-11-01 01:26am

forgive the second post, I have yet to locate the edit feature....

in my third paragraph, last line was left incomplete.

[quote] Star Wars EU (Timothy Zahn's novels in particular, I beleive it was Heir to the Empire or Dark Force Rising) showed the definate exsistence of planetary shields in the EU (and since the EU C-level Canon and is canon unless contridicted by G-level Canon) and thus the exsistence or absence of similar shield around Alderann should be a moot point.

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-11-01 01:35am

UCBooties wrote:I'll take this oppurtunity to bring myself up to speed. The idea of Alderaan having a planetary shield is fairly new isn't it? We infer it only from the delay in planetary explosion correct? I have no wish to refute this observation, but I was wondering if the presence of said shield was corroberated at any time durring the movie dialogue, novelization, or EU literature, since I can not recall such a mention. We're going by observation only right?

To expand on what Master of Ossus said, the screenshots of the shield in question:

The preceding screens are from the DVD. From the original release, the shield was inferred from the way the emissions from the superlaser seemed to engulf the planet before finally penetrating and destroying it, like so:

And finally, an animation of the sequence, courtesy of Icehawk.

Post by **Vympel** » 2004-11-01 03:01am

There's also that the superlaser impact in the original version resembles the effect just before the bolt splinter when it hits the Tantive IV.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » 2004-11-01 09:34am

Does anyone know if that was intended to be a shield, has it been confirmed 'officially'? (as in lucas saying Alderaan had a shield/that was supposed to be a shielf, not some silly second level canon fanboy book talking about planetary shields) Just wondered... or can I turn any dodgy special effect into my own idea for supertech?

DarkSilver · Post by **DarkSilver** » 2004-11-01 10:19am

Jon wrote:Does anyone know if that was intended to be a shield, has it been confirmed 'officially'? (as in lucas saying Alderaan had a shield/that was supposed to be a shielf, not some silly second level canon fanboy book talking about planetary shields) Just wondered... or can I turn any dodgy special effect into my own idea for supertech?

As far as I am currently aware, it was never stated in G-Canon the exsistence of the Planetary Shield, but In the Lesser (Read: Official) C-Canon, the Planetary Shields do exsist.

C-canon is stated to be "Expanded Universe", Books, RPG, Video Games, etc. Therefore, unless contridicted via the Movies or from some other G-Canon Source (Script / Movie Novelization), then it is plausible to assume the exsistence of the Alderann Planetary Shield, be it shoddy Special Effects or Not.

Now..the question as to either or not the Superlaser was a true DET weapon, or the upper limit of said Planetary Shields stability in response to concentrated energy bombardment such as would come from the Super Laser......that is another topic...

Rogue 9 · Post by **Rogue 9** » 2004-11-01 10:21am

Why do we need official confirmation? Look at it. That's a shielding effect. There is no other plausible explanation for the flash and, more importantly, that hard line in the second frame. You can try to "turn any dodgy special effect" into whatever you want if you can rationalize it, but be prepared to back up your explanation.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-11-01 10:23am

DarkSilver wrote:
Jon wrote:Does anyone know if that was intended to be a shield, has it been confirmed 'officially'? (as in lucas saying Alderaan had a shield/that was supposed to be a shielf, not some silly second level canon fanboy book talking about planetary shields) Just wondered... or can I turn any dodgy special effect into my own idea for supertech?

As far as I am currently aware, it was never stated in G-Canon the exsistence of the Planetary Shield, but In the Lesser (Read: Official) C-Canon, the Planetary Shields do exsist.

C-canon is stated to be "Expanded Universe", Books, RPG, Video Games, etc. Therefore, unless contridicted via the Movies or from some other G-Canon Source (Script / Movie Novelization), then it is plausible to assume the exsistence of the Alderann Planetary Shield, be it shoddy Special Effects or Not.

Now..the question as to either or not the Superlaser was a true DET weapon, or the upper limit of said Planetary Shields stability in response to concentrated energy bombardment such as would come from the Super Laser......that is another topic...

The shield is backed by evidence, and supported by the official.

As for your second assertion , I will warn you before you open your mouth and get roasted. Unless it's airtight and supported by canon, you will get your ass kicked fifty ways to Sunday by many of the posters here.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2004-11-01 04:15pm

Jon wrote:Does anyone know if that was intended to be a shield, has it been confirmed 'officially'? (as in lucas saying Alderaan had a shield/that was supposed to be a shielf, not some silly second level canon fanboy book talking about planetary shields) Just wondered... or can I turn any dodgy special effect into my own idea for supertech?

THe fact that it's in the film (the ultimate "official") makes it official enough. It doesn't need to be recognized by any other source. And anything that says it wasn't a shield is overruled by the film anyways.

Techno_Union · Post by **Techno_Union** » 2004-11-01 04:54pm

DarkSilver wrote:forgive the second post, I have yet to locate the edit feature....

in my third paragraph, last line was left incomplete.

Star Wars EU (Timothy Zahn's novels in particular, I beleive it was Heir to the Empire or Dark Force Rising) showed the definate exsistence of planetary shields in the EU (and since the EU C-level Canon and is canon unless contridicted by G-level Canon) and thus the exsistence or absence of similar shield around Alderann should be a moot point.

The edit feature has been deactivated for this forum... mainly do to some people editting their arguments ect. Normally it would be near the "quote" button.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-11-01 04:54pm

If one insists on ignoring the obvious visible manifestation of a shield as well as the entire EU, one must remember that:

A) Hoth had an area-effect shield
B) TPM proved that you can link area-effect shields together
C) Endor had a global shield as described in the novelization.
D) Alderaan was said to have a planetary defense system as strong as any in the entire Empire.

Add those up, and you have an Alderaan planetary shield.

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