ST vs SW: Sabacc/Poker tournament

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Okay, for the sake of making things equal, let's suspend our disbelief and assume that sabacc *is* actually poker (like assuming Basic is English. OK, probably bad analogy but you know what I mean...). Same suits, same rules, etc. Thus any SW characters expert in sabacc (like Han or Lando) naturally becomes expert in poker, using same strategy like bluffing, etc.

Then a sabacc/poker tournament is arranged between two galaxies. After eliminating lots of contestants, we have these players left:

- Han Solo vs William Riker

- Lando Calrissian vs James T. Kirk

- R2D2 vs Data

- Grand Admiral Thrawn vs Spock

Who will eventually come out as winner?

[Mr Bean]

Okay, for the sake of making things equal, let's suspend our disbelief and assume that sabacc *is* actually poker

Its not so much Poker as it is complicated Blackjack
Most folks who know Blackjack can learn Sabacc pretty easily

Diffrent suit names, same number of suits plus the "idiot card"(Joker mixed back into the deck)
Black Negative Cards, Red Positive, Jacks are 11, Queens 12 and so on

[Questor]

- Han Solo vs William Riker

Here I'd have to go with Han over Riker, but I can't really explain why, just a gut feeling.

- Lando Calrissian vs James T. Kirk

In this one I am going to go with Lando, because he was a professional gambler, but it would be close. (We've all seen Kirk bluff his way out of a bad situation.)

- R2D2 vs Data

Data, because there is no evidence that R2 even knows how to gamble.

- Grand Admiral Thrawn vs Spock

This one would really be interesting, I expect that they'd both play very analytical games, I'd probably go with Thrawn, but its pretty much a coin toss.

The next round:

Han vs. Lando - We already know what happens.

Data vs. Thrawn - Thrawn cleans Data's clock.

Final Round:

Han vs. Thrawn - Thrawn would win, but it would be a good game.

So the end result is... Thrawn wins![/quote]

[DarkSilver]

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Han vs Riker
-----

tough to call, Han' and Riker both offer decent competition in thier respectiver Games (Riker in POker, Han in Sabbac), but then we look at who has wont he bigger stakes...

Riker has played in Officer's Games on the Enterprise (that we deffinatly know of), Solo has won a) a ship and b) a entire planet (Dathomir) in playing Sabbac....This shows Han has some considerable skill in high stakes Games. While we cannot simply say that Riker has never played in a High Stakes game (whatever High Stakes would be for the ST Universe), I'd say Han has a advantage.
Though Riker does have a mean poker face, and Han was depicted as getting itchy during the Dathomir game.....

Riker by a Bluff, simply because he's proven his poker face,

-----
Lando vs Kirk
-----

Both men are tough as nails, both men are enormous womanizers, and both men can bluff like no tomorrow. I say Lando brings a few Twi'lek females in, Kirk goes Space Macho on Lando, and loses cause he's trying to score a peice of hot tenticle headed alien booty.....

Lando by playing on his opponent's weakness.

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R2D2 vs Data
-----

We have no idea if R2 has the knowledge to gamble, but we know Data does.

Data wins by virtue of previous experience.

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Thrawn vs Spock
-----

Hard to call..
both are highly analytical, logical and supreme thinkers. Neither is Infallable, but both manage to maintain a great level of calmness in all thier endeavours (We'll forgive Spock the few times that he's let emotion slip through)

It'd be a long drawn out affair, but in the end, Thrawn would take it, and a Noghri would kill Spock after the match.


Lando vs Riker :
Riker learned from Kirk's mistake, and nailed the Twilek's while Kirk was getting beaten (what else do you think distracted Kirk long enough to lose? He saw Riker boning the hot Twi'lek's....) and brings along a few Klingon Women (good looking ones, not like Lursa and Be'tor) in thier skimpy Female armor. Lando goes insane, tries to show off by making huge bets, and loses. Lando then goes off to DS9, gets to Quark's, and cleans up at Tongo and Dabo.

Data vs Thrawn

Data and Thrawn have another large drawn out match, but in the end, Thrawn takes it. Simply because he pulls off a few bluffs Data doesn't see through.


Riker vs Thrawn

Since there's no women involved in this match (Thrawn saw what happened with Lando's Twi'lek's, and doesn't want to chance anymore brain damage from the scene...), and Riker is facing the Ultimate Poker Face, the match goes on for awhile, Riker confuses Thrawn once or twice with some surprise manuvrs in the game, but eventually Thrawn comes out ahead, just winning as the game is called on account of Time.

Thrawn wins the pot, and the match.

[Utah Jak]

It would be fun, and being the capitalist that I am. I would host it and make a fortune with merchindising and ticket sales.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

While we cannot simply say that Riker has never played in a High Stakes game (whatever High Stakes would be for the ST Universe),

I don't know either. Probably seeing Lwaxanna Troi naked?

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

It would be fun, and being the capitalist that I am. I would host it and make a fortune with merchindising and ticket sales.

No chance, Bub. The tournament is arranged on my personal flagship, The Executor-Class Command Ship Ibiza, bestowed by His Imperial Majesty Palpatine himself, which I've converted into the best recreational scene in the galaxy, with artificial beaches, outdoor bars, piano lounges (for more elegant visitors), clubs, discos, rave warehouses, MHV (Music Holo Vision) bars, 5-stars hotels, and of course: casinos.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

You know, by far the vote result quite surprised me a bit. I thought most people will choose either Han, Lando, or Riker, but apparently Thrawn is the most likely winner. Long live the Grand Admiral, then

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

-----
Han vs Riker
-----

tough to call, Han' and Riker both offer decent competition in thier respectiver Games (Riker in POker, Han in Sabbac), but then we look at who has wont he bigger stakes...

Riker has played in Officer's Games on the Enterprise (that we deffinatly know of), Solo has won a) a ship and b) a entire planet (Dathomir) in playing Sabbac....This shows Han has some considerable skill in high stakes Games. While we cannot simply say that Riker has never played in a High Stakes game (whatever High Stakes would be for the ST Universe), I'd say Han has a advantage.
Though Riker does have a mean poker face, and Han was depicted as getting itchy during the Dathomir game.....

Riker by a Bluff, simply because he's proven his poker face,

Dunno, Han beat *Lando*, which is also a bluffer. He's also got reputation on high stakes, like you said. Now anyone could recall Riker's reputation in Poker? (aside beating fellow E-D crews)

[brianeyci]

Data/R2D2 are possibly the best players out of the bunch, but only if they get to do a lot of research into Sabbac/Poker. If they saw a shitload of Thrawn's games, they would be able to figure out Thrawn's playing style. Even better if they saw a lot of pro players of Sabbac, to figure out the general types of playing styles.

If Sabbac and Poker were the same, then Data would probably lose. Because he loses to Commander Riker, which theoretically isn't possible. Data probably always goes for the most "probable" way to win, meaning he is predictable, and easy for Riker to read.

Brian

[taccovert4]

Grand Admiral Mit'thrawn'nuroudo Vs. Spock,

Give me a break!

Spock is highly anaylitical, so is Thrawn.

Given that this is a tournament that has been involving players, and therefore ships, and therefore venues throughout both galaxies until the championship round, Spock doesn't have a chance.

Thrawn is going to be spending all of his spare time studying artwork throughout the ST galaxy (mind you he will enjoy this, and will have Adm. Paelleon on all nighters transcribing his notes on how to conquer the ST galaxy) and will, not might, find a weakness in the Vulcan psyche and the Earthling Psyche. He will probably find the Earthling weakness first, but given a few months he will find both. Once he knows that weakness, he will ignore it for the first few rounds, so they will be a tossup. Then when he implements it, I have no doubt it will be a landslide victory. Spock probably will discover what is happening before the end of the game, but being it is hard wired into his system he will not be able to change his thinking quickly enough to affect the outcome.

Similar results with all remaining rounds against living players.

Data will be the hardest for Thrawn, B/C he is not 'living' and therefore does not have a cultural weakness. But here Thrawn's experience in bluffing (he bluffed a freakin' jedi master, and kicked the pants off Palpatine's personal fleet (I personally believe that fleet was commanded by a Sith)) will pay off, as will his tactical and strategic sense (he did fight enemies with which he had had no prior contact so that says that he is a brilliant tactician not just a master manipulator) and Data will be left picking up the BYTES.

Thrawn--hands down

[Lord Pounder]

OMG THRAWN PWNS J0U @LL

He may do well but he won't beat a professional card player like Han or Lando. Sitting in the command deck of an ISD does not give you a lot of experience in face to face bluffing.

[brianeyci]

Data will be the hardest for Thrawn, B/C he is not 'living' and therefore does not have a cultural weakness. But here Thrawn's experience in bluffing (he bluffed a freakin' jedi master, and kicked the pants off Palpatine's personal fleet (I personally believe that fleet was commanded by a Sith)) will pay off, as will his tactical and strategic sense (he did fight enemies with which he had had no prior contact so that says that he is a brilliant tactician not just a master manipulator) and Data will be left picking up the BYTES.

Thrawn--hands down

Anybody who can bluff can apparently beat Early TNG Data, since Riker can beat Data. Riker can't out-think Data, and Data can go over records of hundreds of poker games in seconds, so Riker wins because Early TNG Data is predictable and can't read Riker.

If Data can overcome his predictability -- easy to do if Data figures out that being predictable is why he always loses -- Data could win. Early TNG Data was incredibly naive, but ST:FC Data was a far cry from the naive Data who got outbluffed by Riker all the time.

The more human Data is, the more dangerous he becomes -- a brain that can analyze possibilities in nanoseconds and who can become as unpredictable as a human player with a perfect poker face is the ultimate opponent. Perhaps Data would be better if he had his emotion chip plugged in, although he wouldn't have his perfect poker face anymore, he would be more unpredictable and retain his analytical ability. He would have to learn to bluff the old fashioned way though.

Brian

[Drooling Iguana]

I'd say that, as far as poker faces go, Data doesn't stand a chance against R@, seeing as how R2 doesn't even have a face. All he'd have to do is keep quite and it would be impossible for anyone to "read" him.

And it's been fairly well-established in other threads how R2 and Data's processing power compare.

[brianeyci]

And it's been fairly well-established in other threads how R2 and Data's processing power compare.

Got a link to that thread? I used the search for Data, then R2D2, and found nothing.

What were the conclusions? Don't tell me that R2 won. Data has been in infinitely more challenging situations than R2. Did you base the conclusions on what was observed on screen?

Brian

[brianeyci]

And it's been fairly well-established in other threads how R2 and Data's processing power compare.

Got a link to that thread? I used the search for Data, then R2D2, and found nothing.

What were the conclusions? Don't tell me that R2 won. Data has been in infinitely more challenging situations than R2. Did you base the conclusions on what was observed on screen?

<edit> And as well, having a face might be an advantage. You can pretend to have a certain face, and bluff people. R2 can just have a neutral face all the time. See, it can go both ways, as long as Data figures out how to bluff properly. </edit>

Brian

[Prozac the Robert]

I'd bet on kirk over R2 or Data any day. He talks, they self destruct.

And I'd love to see thrawn and kirk playing poker. [You listening Stravo? I'm sure you could fit it in somehow without completely destroying the integrety of Starcrossed.]

[Isolder74]

I like Trawn and all but this is not his game. I think this definatly goes to Lando. This IS his game. He lost to han but that appears to have been an example of Han's luck. There is an EU instance in which Lando won the Falcon back from Han and then gave it back.

Lando takes this but it ends up being a long drawn out game between himm and Han

[generator_g1]

I like Trawn and all but this is not his game. I think this definatly goes to Lando. This IS his game. He lost to han but that appears to have been an example of Han's luck. There is an EU instance in which Lando won the Falcon back from Han and then gave it back.

Lando takes this but it ends up being a long drawn out game between himm and Han

That was random sabacc and Lando only won because of the last minute change of rules that 3PO implemented....

[Keevan_Colton]

Okay, for the sake of making things equal, let's suspend our disbelief and assume that sabacc *is* actually poker

Its not so much Poker as it is complicated Blackjack
Most folks who know Blackjack can learn Sabacc pretty easily

Diffrent suit names, same number of suits plus the "idiot card"(Joker mixed back into the deck)
Black Negative Cards, Red Positive, Jacks are 11, Queens 12 and so on

It's actually even simpler than that, it's like blackjack to 23 or -23, played with a Tarot sized deck. There are other special cards mentioned, with the "idiot" being equivalent to the "Fool" in a tarot deck. There are a couple of special hands, like the 2,3 and idiot for a literal 23.

[The Third Man]

It's actually even simpler than that, it's like blackjack to 23 or -23, played with a Tarot sized deck. There are other special cards mentioned, with the "idiot" being equivalent to the "Fool" in a tarot deck. There are a couple of special hands, like the 2,3 and idiot for a literal 23.

Isn't blackjack computable as per the various card-counting systems? If sabacc is so similar to blackjack, then, provided they have a sufficiently large bankroll to ride out runs of bad results, the artificial intelligences should win out in the statistical long run, especially since they both abide by the brain-bug that says AIs are perfect arithmeticians. Data, if he had his emotions turned on, would presumably be more prone to do something rash than R2, so R2 would take it.

I realise this is probably moot, because the OP says to assume sabacc is actually poker.

[taccovert4]

Early TNG Data is predictable and can't read Riker.

If Data can overcome his predictability -- easy to do if Data figures out that being predictable is why he always loses -- Data could win. Early TNG Data was incredibly naive, but ST:FC Data was a far cry from the naive Data who got outbluffed by Riker all the time.
Brian

But if Data learns that he is predictable, he then becomes unbelievably predictable, because he become predictably unpredictable.

[taccovert4]

OMG THRAWN PWNS J0U @LL

He may do well but he won't beat a professional card player like Han or Lando. Sitting in the command deck of an ISD does not give you a lot of experience in face to face bluffing.

But Dread Lord;

Doth the Illustrious Grand Admiral need to have face to face experience? For a human to bluff against him would be the same as to bluff against Spock. If you are from the SW galaxy you have not experience with Vulcans, and thereby cannot effectively read them. No one, save Imperials which would never betray their Grand Admiral, has face to face experience with a Chiss, so no one can know when he is bluffing or when he is just staring at the artwork on the wall behind you. But courtesy of his love of art (and his uncanny ability to interpret cultural strengths and weaknesses from it), the Grand Admiral does not need face to face experience to know when his enemies are bluffing. Remember in Dark Force Rising, he successfully determined not only that one of his SDs was attacked by Katana Fleet Dreadnoughts, but that they were being led by a Correlian, and he wasn't even near the battle, so all he saw were the Battleroms. His strategic brilliance is more valuable at the Sabacc table than you predict, as my own extensive studies of the strategies of Napoleon, Wellington, Sun Tzu, Wu Tzu, Nelson, Clauswitz, and American Strategists has helped me at those Poker Night black jack games (My bluffing is crap).

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

OMG THRAWN PWNS J0U @LL

He may do well but he won't beat a professional card player like Han or Lando. Sitting in the command deck of an ISD does not give you a lot of experience in face to face bluffing.

But Dread Lord;

Doth the Illustrious Grand Admiral need to have face to face experience? For a human to bluff against him would be the same as to bluff against Spock. If you are from the SW galaxy you have not experience with Vulcans, and thereby cannot effectively read them. No one, save Imperials which would never betray their Grand Admiral, has face to face experience with a Chiss, so no one can know when he is bluffing or when he is just staring at the artwork on the wall behind you. But courtesy of his love of art (and his uncanny ability to interpret cultural strengths and weaknesses from it), the Grand Admiral does not need face to face experience to know when his enemies are bluffing. Remember in Dark Force Rising, he successfully determined not only that one of his SDs was attacked by Katana Fleet Dreadnoughts, but that they were being led by a Correlian, and he wasn't even near the battle, so all he saw were the Battleroms. His strategic brilliance is more valuable at the Sabacc table than you predict, as my own extensive studies of the strategies of Napoleon, Wellington, Sun Tzu, Wu Tzu, Nelson, Clauswitz, and American Strategists has helped me at those Poker Night black jack games (My bluffing is crap).

Now, I have no doubt in Thrawn's brilliance as master strategist and tactician (especially after serving under him in campaigns against the traitorous Admiral Zaarin Yup I'm still playing TIE Fighter even these days...), but the real question is: how far it will help him in a poker/sabacc game? taccovert4, sure *you* were helped much in poker by studying strategies of Napoleon and the likes, but are those strategists themselves also experts in games of gambling?

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

I'd bet on kirk over R2 or Data any day. He talks, they self destruct.

KIRK: There..... is... no... way... you.... two... can... beat.... me....
R2 & Data: <bzzzt..> <sizzle...> <sizzle...> KA-BOOM!!!!

And everyone watching the game instantly runs in fear.