Something I've noticed in my SW vs ST debates

[LORDDOOMMASTER]

This is my first post here at SD.net, even though I've been a long time lurker and a long time Warsie (and my apologies in advance if this has been dicussed before). I've argued against many trekkies since high school, and I always seem to notice one thing they have in common (well, aside from being really, really ignorant and unable to accept reality). Never, ever, in all my numberous arguments against trekkies, have I ever actually met one trekkie that understood how science works. Never.

It seems to me that everyone I've seen in the SW vs ST argument, the SW side seems to have all the engineers and science majors and the ST side has nothing but fanboys. I'm not saying that there are no fanboys on the SW side (there are and they can make us look just as bad as the ST fanboys), but look at most of us on the SW side. Take me for example. I'm a computer engineer. Then take the couple other major examples like Wong or Saxton. Michael Wong (or Darth Wong, whatever name you want to call him) is a mechanical engineer. Curtis Saxton (who doesn't participate in these VS debate but probably has the most thorough and scientific information available about Star Wars anywhere) is an astrophysicist. When I first saw Saxton's site, I was amazed that he found the time to actually calculate all that he has. Same for SD.net and Wong.

In my arguments with Trekkie's, I've made some of the same calulations that Saxton and Wong have to prove a point. Granted, many times they aren't as detailed as they have done, nor do I usually spend as much time because the arguments I've had have all been in person. Usually one side or the other stops talking about it after it's obvious who's winning, or the other side just refuses to admit defeat and brings up something pointless (a common trekkie copout, usually involving the Q whenever I've had debates). On the net, of course, the websites have to be thorough and full of data, because rather than 3 or 4 people sitting around debating, there are thousands of people who have access to the information and the debate. The point is, of course, that the principle is the same, hard evidence has been provided for the capabilities of the subject of discussion.

But when you present to a trekkie how fast a ship is or how much power a turbolaser or photon torpedo has in good, hard numbers, what do you get? Well, what I almost always get (and I've seen in the debate on this board the same thing many times) is "Those numbers aren't right, it's not possible" or (my personal favorite) "You can't calculate that, you don't have any evidence for it and you don't have the right formulas." This is usually about the time I ask if they have ever taken a physics or calculus course and the answer is always a unsurprising "No."

Of course, this always ends up with me explaining just exactly how I got the information and what formulas and constants I used to get the answer. Rarely do they understand and the explaination goes way over their ability to comprehend, and then the next comment is usually, "Well, the Q would still beat the Empire because they are omnipotent" (won't get into this discussion right now). Which usually ends with my accepting their concession that they have just lost the argument, in which case they quickly try to change the subject so they don't hae to admit defeat.

I think I've pretty well described my experiences, now I'm wondering if there is anyone out there with more experience than I have in this VS argument that has had any arguments with someone who actually understands science but argues for the ST side? And, of course, I'm not talking about people who claim to have degrees they really don't (such as the famous Stewart at SDI and the such, which are either really pathetic lonely 40 years olds still living in their parents basement with the Spock ears on or 15 year old kids who think they have a doctorate in advanced quantum physics theory because they saw an episode of Star Trek that involved the word "quantum"). Real people with real degrees and real knowledge. Well, to anyone that read the rather long post, thank you and I look forward to replies!

[Mr Bean]

Few people take the time and effort to worth out acutal math or even a most basic of scientic proccesses when it comes to cross Universe VS

There are Fanboys on BOTH sides however the "learned" on the ST side generaly run the numbers see the result and say "Oh well"

Which is why I might add there are no SW VS The Culture sites by DW just because there are some universes out there that simply pound for pound decimate anything else mainstream.

[Aquatain]

Also must of us have no abillity to to make any kind of calculations, i myself is just a ordinary joe nobody with no education whatsoever and i simply dosen't have the tools to calculate anything beyound simple arithmetic.

God i'm inferior...and depressed now.

[Stofsk]

God i'm inferior...and depressed now.

Don't be sad. Be smart.

[Captain Kruger]

Welcome aboard, LORDDOOMMASTER.

[Kruk]

LORDDOOMMASTER - You know, what is the greatest problem with Trek - inconsistency in most aspects that are used in vs discussions. And in theory, all of them are cannon. Some calcs are kt in range, some Tt. And probably the bet way to discuss ST vs SW will be to discuss ST (episode x) vs SW. This is probably why most serious trekkies (or trekkers) are not calculating such things and are not participating in such discussions.

[Vympel]

The lack of people with a real education arguing for the ST side is easily explained by the fact that anyone with such education and a willingess to debate for ST probably looked at it and realized the situation was hopeless.

[Ghost Rider]

Education plays an enourmous part...but not just calcs. It's this idiotic notion of set numbers amongst other things.

Some morons don't grasp that numbers are not set in stone, there are high and low ends, and so few people grasp this and take whatever is given as the absolute. Trek is not at only fault but they are the ones who feebly grasp onto some unknown possibly GT range if seen in an episode...or they think they saw it and then exclaim that must apply to ALL the time, not reconciling the fact it doesn't.

So you get dipshits who hold onto The Die Is Cast as precious gold, never realizing that really...that at absolute best it's a high end, and not a very impressive one at that.

As also for the education part there are things of the nature of debating and not grasping logic nor how to apply such things, but that's for another time.

[Kruk]

You can say same thing about Warsies. They hold on weapons/power generation/drive and never realise (or are willing to admit) that some tech from trek can or is better. Of course, if war-like debate, that has nothing to do, but in non-war debates... yes. Most Warsies (asspecialy, and it's sad, from this site) for any question, or statement that something in trek is more advanced than in SW say: SW has better drive and DS can destroy planets with single blast so SW is better than Trek. This is tha same as trekkies using A Die is Cast or time travel as ways to defeat SW.

[Lord Revan]

You can say same thing about Warsies. They hold on weapons/power generation/drive and never realise (or are willing to admit) that some tech from trek can or is better. Of course, if war-like debate, that has nothing to do, but in non-war debates... yes. Most Warsies (asspecialy, and it's sad, from this site) for any question, or statement that something in trek is more advanced than in SW say: SW has better drive and DS can destroy planets with single blast so SW is better than Trek. This is tha same as trekkies using A Die is Cast or time travel as ways to defeat SW.

Name one technology that trek has, but SW hasn't or have something better.

[Ghost Rider]

You can say same thing about Warsies. They hold on weapons/power generation/drive and never realise (or are willing to admit) that some tech from trek can or is better. Of course, if war-like debate, that has nothing to do, but in non-war debates... yes. Most Warsies (asspecialy, and it's sad, from this site) for any question, or statement that something in trek is more advanced than in SW say: SW has better drive and DS can destroy planets with single blast so SW is better than Trek. This is tha same as trekkies using A Die is Cast or time travel as ways to defeat SW.

It's amazing that most Trekkies never show why.

This is a reason I say ignorance. Trekkies claim this many times, never show it and go "You're just being ignorant of the subject!"

So if you want to step and shows us this proff, go right ahead, because literally making loud claims of TDIC is pointless since it's shown that the effects do not match even high MT let alone the outlandish it's a BDZ.

Yes, there are warsies who claim shit but then then there are people who do what you do and snip like a bitch because you are too stubborn to just go and say your side loses.

One thing to enjoy a series, another to be a blithering idiot and scream till you're blue in the face that your series is going to win but not show this in a logical manner.

[Kruk]

English is not my native language, so perhaps You can say me, where I wrote, that ST weapons are better than SW ones? I think I have said, that SW weapons, power generation (perhaps without Omega, but thats another story) and drive (also with some exceptions like those fancy Caretaker 'transporter' and such superthingies. On onther side in SW there are Aing-Tii) ARE BETTER than in SW. So, Ghost Rider, whaty You wrote, is one thing I hate about versus Warsies. They dont even read what someone else wrote. Asspecialy, when someone wrote DiC.

Just for anyone who want to claim, that I'm some sort of fanboy who want to prove, that ST is better in warfare then SW. IT'S NOT. SW HAVE BETTER WEAPONS/SHIELDS, DRIVE AND POWER GENERATION then Federation and their level races (including Borg etc). I've argued about this with some peoples on spacebattles.com and they have been able to convince me, that I was wrong (I was on Trek side). But noone have convinced me, that SW is better with anything. Anyone want to try - please.

Things, that SW dont have or ST has better ones. Please:
- Genesis (oh, there was one warsie who said to me, that DS is more advanced then Genesis because it can destroy shielded planets with one shot. What have terreforming tech to the destruction of planets, I dont know) - this is one tech that SW dont have and till Vongs and their bio-tech terraformin neve even shown abilities to create. It was not stable, sure, but even creating such unstable device is something that SW can dream off.

- transporters (I know SW has some sort of transportation devices but from what I can remember from THIS forum, it's stationary, and noone is able to duplicate it)
- holodecks (SW has some planet - also I know this from this forum - with such tech, but ST has holodecks on most ships (Fed-ones))
- replicators (I know about duplicators, but they are not as widely used as in ST)
- I'm not sure about this, so I may be wrong - STL drives.
- time travel
- for weponary - sunbusting tech (I know about sun crusher, but taking one shuttle, and using replicator to made some stuff, that will blow sun...)
- bioweapons (I dont know how good they are in SW - I have not founded anything more about them then that they are used be Empire, but pretty impersive in Trek)

Add to this races like Krenim (why they are always excluded from ST vs SW discussions ??), Voth, race that created V'Ger and there is quite many things, that SW dont have.

[Ghost Rider]

-Genesis: A tech they could never reproduce. Lost tech is not a good start to say they have something better.

-Transporters: Something people contend but as it stands, yes Trek has shown it better.

-Replicators: Right, because when they can't reproduce RNA or other basic substances, it's obviously better then duplicators SW uses.

-Holodeck: Now here's the illogical nonsense. He presumes that because every ST ship has one...it's better. How is that better...just because one country produces a TV that can produce accurate 3 Dimensional holograms and another produces better, because one is a household item and the other is not, does not make the household item better, moron.

- Sunbusting: Gotta love the ignorance on this one. I'll just go and say it's astounding that it like Genesis is lost Tech.

- STL: Prove it.

- Time Travel: Not even going there given the sheer stupidity of not once again proving why it's better in the fact of what it does.

- Bioweapons: another ignorant point, and even worse, he admits it. Don't point out your ignorance when trying to say side is better. No different then a person going the M-16 is better then the AK-47 but not showing WHY.

Add in other races.

Once again...you've pretty much shown one...next time actually have the proof to back up one's statement.

[Luzifer's right hand]

-Replicators: Right, because when they can't reproduce RNA or other basic substances, it's obviously better then duplicators SW uses.

They replicated a spine for Worf IIRC. They can replicate functioning cells which means they can replicate RNA.

[Ghost Rider]

-Replicators: Right, because when they can't reproduce RNA or other basic substances, it's obviously better then duplicators SW uses.

They replicated a spine for Worf IIRC. They can replicate functioning cells which means they can replicate RNA.

They did?

Hmmm...well then I stand corrected.

Still as for an argument against...they cannot replicate rain water from another world they know off and have imported the drink from.

[Luzifer's right hand]

They did?

Hmmm...well then I stand corrected.


Still as for an argument against...they cannot replicate rain water from another world they know off and have imported the drink from.

I took a look at transcript.
It was a "genetronic replicator" a experimental medical device not a standard replicator. It's most likely that a normal replicator is unable to do the same.

[The Nomad]

Add to this races like Krenim (why they are always excluded from ST vs SW discussions ??), Voth, race that created V'Ger and there is quite many things, that SW dont have.

Geez, that reminds me of the SB.com Trekkie morons that claimed the Voth and Krenim could destroy the Culture. That was downright hilarious .

[Mad]

Never, ever, in all my numberous arguments against trekkies, have I ever actually met one trekkie that understood how science works. Never.

I have. They conceed quickly, though they sometimes harp on how Star Trek is more realistic than Star Wars. (That's when I ask them about the "anti-matter residue" that was detected on the walls of a building on Earth in Enterprise.)

The educated ones are less likely to debate simply because there's not much point. Aside from the obvious stylistic difference that favors SW on first glance (ancient and advanced technology in the hands of an empire for one and a relatively small, relatively newly-created federation for the other), the calcs have been done and put SW on top. Why bother redoing the work?

Some do, I'm sure, but then they tend to see the same thing pretty soon. So the result is that there are people who prefer ST to SW, but will side with SW in debates because that's what all the evidence points to.

[Kruk]

-Genesis: A tech they could never reproduce. Lost tech is not a good start to say they have something better.

The same can be said about most SW super-technologies. Most, if not all of them have been created only as unique pieces of technology. 2 (3 if we count the prototype) DS, 1 Suncrusher, 1 Palpatine's Eye, 1 Galaxy Gun, 1 Eclipse SSD. If there are some booke I have not hear about, all the tech is lost.

-Holodeck: Now here's the illogical nonsense. He presumes that because every ST ship has one...it's better. How is that better...just because one country produces a TV that can produce accurate 3 Dimensional holograms and another produces better, because one is a household item and the other is not, does not make the household item better, moron.

They are perfect for 'low-price' entertainment. For any sex enterprise, video etc. But if dont want the holodecks, how about holo-tech. From pre-Empire and Empire tech we know, that those holograms are... well, not the best ones. And before You say that what we have seen, were military holograms, then how about personal hologram-emiters of this viceroy from TPM. Or personal lord Vader-Palpatine hologram. One could assume that such holoemiters (esspecialy the first one) will be top-quality.

- Sunbusting: Gotta love the ignorance on this one. I'll just go and say it's astounding that it like Genesis is lost Tech.

the same response as above. And it's ST (not only Federation) tech. Dominion has no problems with such tech. Probably Fed also not. They have blown sun once (they were trying to stabilize it, but... well, it was not their day)

- STL: Prove it.

Well, .25c it's 75 000 km/s. MF has needed more than second to fly from front to back of stardestroyer. The same goes for starfighters in ROTJ. They needed more than second to fly 12 km (SSD length) and in the battle You fly on maks speed. It gives maks speed of MF about 12 km/s. Fighters are faster probably (100 times its still 1 200 km/s) it's still 6 time slower than most trek ships speed. If I got my hand on divix version of SW, I'll give you visual evidence.

- Time Travel: Not even going there given the sheer stupidity of not once again proving why it's better in the fact of what it does.

Ehem, I was asked for a tech that ST has and SW not. Not if the tech is reasonable or how it will work if used to fight. ST has the ability/tech (if we count 29th century ST than to extened faaaaaaar above any SW ability in this area) SW not.

- Bioweapons: another ignorant point, and even worse, he admits it. Don't point out your ignorance when trying to say side is better. No different then a person going the M-16 is better then the AK-47 but not showing WHY.

Well, here You are right. But in one of Voy episodes biogenic weapon has instantly eliminated biological live on some area. In most instances of such weapon usage there were survivors from affected planets. But as the episode was holo-simulation, I assume that You are right about it, and we have no evidence for SW bio-weapons to compare it with ST weapons. If there is such, I have not seen it, so anyone care to name some sources about it?

Add in other races.

Once again...you've pretty much shown one...next time actually have the proof to back up one's statement.

Hmm, Voth phasing tech, Krenim temporal weapon, V'Ger, Q weaponary (and I mean weapons, tech, not their omnipotent abilities), Dyson sphere, Tox Uthat. I'll think I could find some tech that ST has and SW not.

[Lord Revan]

The same can be said about most SW super-technologies. Most, if not all of them have been created only as unique pieces of technology. 2 (3 if we count the prototype) DS, 1 Suncrusher, 1 Palpatine's Eye, 1 Galaxy Gun, 1 Eclipse SSD. If there are some booke I have not hear about, all the tech is lost.

DS, Palpatine's Eye or Eclipse SSD do not rely on tech that was invented for that project only (and know to the people working in that project only) (the Genesis device, Soren's Solar torp). If ST can have these, then SW can have the Starforge (gigantic force based replicator facility built by alien culture in pre-republic time).

[Ghost Rider]

-Genesis: A tech they could never reproduce. Lost tech is not a good start to say they have something better.

The same can be said about most SW super-technologies. Most, if not all of them have been created only as unique pieces of technology. 2 (3 if we count the prototype) DS, 1 Suncrusher, 1 Palpatine's Eye, 1 Galaxy Gun, 1 Eclipse SSD. If there are some booke I have not hear about, all the tech is lost.

Righty-o dumbfuck.

That's why they reproduced them in smaller fashions

-Holodeck: Now here's the illogical nonsense. He presumes that because every ST ship has one...it's better. How is that better...just because one country produces a TV that can produce accurate 3 Dimensional holograms and another produces better, because one is a household item and the other is not, does not make the household item better, moron.

They are perfect for 'low-price' entertainment. For any sex enterprise, video etc. But if dont want the holodecks, how about holo-tech. From pre-Empire and Empire tech we know, that those holograms are... well, not the best ones. And before You say that what we have seen, were military holograms, then how about personal hologram-emiters of this viceroy from TPM. Or personal lord Vader-Palpatine hologram. One could assume that such holoemiters (esspecialy the first one) will be top-quality.

So when EU shows differently?

Because so far the EU has indicated that holomovies and holoparks over whole planets exist...but hey they aren't as good as holodecks.

Just because they produce a level of tech above and beyond trek...but without killing their patrons and not being confined to a room is bad.

Gotcha, dumbfuck.

- Sunbusting: Gotta love the ignorance on this one. I'll just go and say it's astounding that it like Genesis is lost Tech.

the same response as above. And it's ST (not only Federation) tech. Dominion has no problems with such tech. Probably Fed also not. They have blown sun once (they were trying to stabilize it, but... well, it was not their day)

Yeup...nice you didn't show how it's...nevermind. You still don't quite get REBUTTAL.

Show why they aren't lost tech instead of going SW has lost tech...oh wait they've reproduced those in smaller and better formats...guess they never lost the tech.

- STL: Prove it.

Well, .25c it's 75 000 km/s. MF has needed more than second to fly from front to back of stardestroyer. The same goes for starfighters in ROTJ. They needed more than second to fly 12 km (SSD length) and in the battle You fly on maks speed. It gives maks speed of MF about 12 km/s. Fighters are faster probably (100 times its still 1 200 km/s) it's still 6 time slower than most trek ships speed. If I got my hand on divix version of SW, I'll give you visual evidence.

Yeup...because not wanting to OVERTAKE the craft is obviously slower STL.

Because Yavin to the DS was slow.

LMAO...so how about ST inter solar system travel when the Borg are about to ass rape Earth?

- Time Travel: Not even going there given the sheer stupidity of not once again proving why it's better in the fact of what it does.

Ehem, I was asked for a tech that ST has and SW not. Not if the tech is reasonable or how it will work if used to fight. ST has the ability/tech (if we count 29th century ST than to extened faaaaaaar above any SW ability in this area) SW not.

You do know EU has shown why they don't use Time Travel?

Literally it showed the same problem of doing nothing to the primary timeline.

So guess they had it at one point and realized something that Trek never did about why it was dumb.

-
Add in other races.

Once again...you've pretty much shown one...next time actually have the proof to back up one's statement.

Hmm, Voth phasing tech, Krenim temporal weapon, V'Ger, Q weaponary (and I mean weapons, tech, not their omnipotent abilities), Dyson sphere, Tox Uthat. I'll think I could find some tech that ST has and SW not.

Yeup...let's see.

Lost tech for almost all of it.

Yessiree, proof that they are more advanced, if they can provide for one time but not everytime afterwards.

The point and there are a few that aren't lost tech is to show the things that are not one shots.

And you strawmanned the beinging of SW tech because all the Superweapons were Super the same way the Death Star was...size, not because it was one time tech they never reproduced.

[Lord Revan]

The Empire's/Republic's superweapo tend be adaptions common tech into huge scale so they're no hard to repplicate if you enought resources and will. ST superweapons tend to be invented by the team that makes the weapon (and involves solutions that are know by the team only). to date the Starforge is the only (IIRC) SW Superweapon that's impossible to replicate.

[brianeyci]

You do know EU has shown why they don't use Time Travel?

Literally it showed the same problem of doing nothing to the primary timeline.

So guess they had it at one point and realized something that Trek never did about why it was dumb.

I know what you mean. The big reset button. Yeeesh. However, time travel can be done properly. I liked the "Guardian on the Edge of Forever" episodes when they went back in time to stop McCoy. Even though it didn't actually do anything to the normal timeline, it was an interesting episode in that you got to see Kirk and Spock in action in the 1930's.

In Star Trek, there are some examples of time changes that affect the primary timeline. I always thought of it like this. If time travelled at time t, and you changed the past, the past would also travel at time t, and would never catch up with the present.

However, we know that certain advanced races, such as the Krenim and Q have changed the primary timeline and not created an "alternate universe timeline." For example, the change in the timeline in the Krenim episodes was depicted as a huge ball travelling faster than normal time. So the Krenim then were able to make their time travel "wave" from the past travel faster than t. I think Alyeska put time travel the best,

The while First Contact, ENT Regeneration, Q-Who is a perfect example of a single time line with time travel interferance.

The Borg send a Cube to Earth because they recieve a message sent 200 years in the past. The message was sent because a Cube attempted to go to Earth. In this instance time travel is possible but changing the timeline is impossible because time is happening simultaneously. Whatever you try and do is irrelevent because time has happened and will happen again. This was even explained in the Voyager episode Relativity. The Borg attempted to go back in time and as a consequence the Enterprise-E went back in time to prevent them. Apparently limited understanding of how to time travel means that changing time can't happen. Once you understand you need more knowledge you stop attempting to travel in time and the same thing still happens. At that level of understanding time is written out and can't be changed by people with a similar level of understanding. What happens happens because it is written.

However things do appear to change in the 29th century Federation. They do fear change in the time line and even developed shields that are designed to isolate them from time and protect them from changes in the past.

Apparently Time travel tech in Trek is very complex. Some times its dimension travel, some times its the real deal but they are merely fullfiling time as its destined to happen, and some times its the real deal with real intereference, but only if your from a really advanced part of Trek.

So, in Star Trek, your ability to actually change the timeline is dependent on your technology level. 29th Century Feds can do it. Krenim could do it. 24th Century Feds probably can't.

Brian

[Kruk]

EU as for Expanded Univers. Have not readed it, but I think on screen evidence is a higher cannon than books. And on screen SW holoprojectors sucks.

Dont know about anythink comparable with SW superweapons but in smaller format. If it's another idea from EU, well, than You are right. I never readed it (and won't, I hope. Original trilogy on screen was great, the rest, hmm) but as it's cannon, You are right. BTW I've always thought, that Krenim weaponary worked by altering primary (this) time line, to creating a new one. The same goes for most time travel tech - in Trek some timetravels were made to REPAIR timeline, not to create new one (and they knew about multiple timelines).

For superweapons replication - why it's so, that even bad-boys with a lot of money and resources ever searched for some lost superweapon, and not created their own. I can understood DS (big and whatever, easier to make a fleet of SD), but smaller tech (suncrucher, Eclipse, noone thoght about replicatin those funky torps from suncrusher - you dont need entire ship to fire torpedo). They were not able to do it, or were stupid enough to waste time with searchig for some weapon that can, but must not exist?

Well, perhaps I'm stupid... in dogfihgt speed means live. but leave it. MF was trying to escape from TIE's so he flied on max burn... still quite slow.

Yavin-DS... hmm... microjump? I dont remember any scene from the film sowing rebels flying all the way from Yavin to DS.

So guess they had it at one point and realized something that Trek never did about why it was dumb.

Or Trek found a way to alter their timeline without creating the new one.

Lost tech for almost all of it.

Yessiree, proof that they are more advanced, if they can provide for one time but not everytime afterwards.

Q weapons... I think I must not explain this
Voth - as above
V'Ger - was mad once, because there was only one Voyager to travel back home. If those machines were able to make super-beign from a wreck, than I think nothing more is to say about their abilities.
Dyson-sphere - race is dead, probably lost tech
Tox-Uthat - now, if trek timetravels are like You say, it still exist. If not, lost tech.

All right, time to write some FF's. Will be here to read it and smile.. in some two or three weeks

[Lord Revan]

EU as for Expanded Univers. Have not readed it, but I think on screen evidence is a higher cannon than books. And on screen SW holoprojectors sucks.

They all communication devices, they don't need photo-realistic pictures, just good enought picture that ID the guy to whom you're talking.

Dont know about anythink comparable with SW superweapons but in smaller format.

the beam cannons in the LAAT gunships in AOTC.

Yavin-DS... hmm... microjump? I dont remember any scene from the film sowing rebels flying all the way from Yavin to DS.

they do show that in ANH:SE (and in ANH:DVD)