Possible Federation defense strategy

[ANTIcarrot.]

I did a search of the archives, and didn't find any mention of this strategy anywhere. My appologies if I'm repeating an old arguement...

The Federation has 'plug and play' phased cloak technology as demonstrated in the Next Generation. In another episode we saw three cloaked humanoids pass through normal matter and various forms of energy shielding, which IIRC included one sticking his head inside the warp core. (Say what you like about external shielding, they *have* to have some impressive shields inside that!) We also see a phased explosion has no effect on normal matter. Plus in the last episode of voyager we see phased torpedos passing through borg shields.

It is also my understanding that the Empire has little understanding or experience of cloaking technology, and absolutely no experience with phasing technology.

Given this, what's to stop a ship the size of a runabout phasing, flying into the heart of a super star destroyer (any model), releasing a phased warhead which then unphases, explodes, and triggers the detonation of the larger reactor, destroying or crippling the larger vessel? A similar attack could disable a super-laser by attacking a bottleneck in the design. And most drawings of the deathstar show that such exist.

Such an operation would be similar to the way the british x-craft were capable of damaging a far larger and more powerful Tirpitz. Putting that out of commission for six months made the german navy reconsidder its strategy. Could putting the/a Deathstar out of comission for a year, and destroying a few SSDs make the Empire react in a similar way?

A few misc points:
*The phase generator required the power of the Enterprise because it was capable of cloaking a ship the size of the enterprise. A smaller device, with reduced capacity, might be considderably smaller, with lesser power requirements.
*Runabouts are suggested because they are the redshirts of DS9. The Federation seems to have a large number of them, and they are easily modified.
*The Romulan ship (with their knowledge of cloaking technology) was not observed to react to the Enterprise, until it unphased.
*A phase-generator would not need to last very long to fulfil its mission. The time requirement is more than capably demonstrated when the Enterprise left the asteroid.
*An imperial starship, that spotted the phased warship, might be able to out-run the attacker. But during the jump to warp Federation ships demonstrate accelerations in the tens of millions of Gees. The picard manouver could jump a ship directly in front of the target vessel.
*An imperial starship, that spotted the phased warship, might be able to manouver in such a way to make precise targetting of the demolition charge impossible. But there is evidence that large explosions within the hulls of Imperator ships can severely damage them.
*America's industrial capacity is not measured by the metal workshops on her naval ships. It is likely that the Federation has facilities for rapid production of phase-generators, (or could produce such facilities quickly) even if they do not already have a stockpile.

ANTIcarrot.

[ANTIcarrot.]

NB: My appologies for the poor spelling. I was not aware we were not allowed to edit our posts and am in the habit of posting and then correcting as a save against computer crashes.

ANTIcarrot.

[Trogdor]

It's a possibility. A crazed Starfleet captain in Darth Wong's fic, Conquest, tried to do it, and IIRC, but didn't try because he didn't have enough time. (I'll explain more about it if you don't mind spoilers). But the phase cloaking tech is only seen in two episodes of trek, so it's kind of hard to call whether it would work or not.

[Batman]

I did a search of the archives, and didn't find any mention of this strategy anywhere. My appologies if I'm repeating an old arguement...

You are.

The Federation has 'plug and play' phased cloak technology as demonstrated in the Next Generation.

Evidence please. If you're referring to Reliant's cloaking device, that wasn't plug and play but part of the ship's design. If, as I suppose, you're reffering to the 'Pegasus' phase cloak, the Fed's don't have it.

In another episode we saw three cloaked humanoids pass through normal matter and various forms of energy shielding, which IIRC included one sticking his head inside the warp core. (Say what you like about external shielding, they *have* to have some impressive shields inside that!)

1. Evidence. What episode was that, were those humanoids using Fed cloaks etc...
2. 'Impressive' is relative. Given the amount of energy obtainable by M/AM is limited I seriously doubt the 'shielding' inside a Warp core is even within hailing distance of Wars shields.

We also see a phased explosion has no effect on normal matter.

And we also see phased characters breathing unphased air, being affected by unphased gravity, and seeing unphased light, so your 'phased matter doesn't interact with unphased matter' theory sort of breaks down.

Plus in the last episode of voyager we see phased torpedos passing through borg shields.

No we don't. we see transphasic torpedoes (a weapon specifically engineered against the Borg) defeating Borg shields. Blimey. A Fed weapon actually doing what it was intended to. Doesn't mean they work the same way that phase cloak did.

It is also my understanding that the Empire has little understanding or experience of cloaking technology,

'No ship that small has a cloaking device'. Yes, they're obviously unfamiliar with it...
Need I really bring up the Zahn books?

and absolutely no experience with phasing technology.

Which is undefined to the point of uselesness.

Given this, what's to stop a ship the size of a runabout phasing, flying into the heart of a super star destroyer (any model), releasing a phased warhead which then unphases, explodes, and triggers the detonation of the larger reactor, destroying or crippling the larger vessel?

-The fact that the Feds don't HAVE the phase cloak
-The fact that you have no evidence you can phase through Wars shields
-The fact that you have no evidence you can phase through Wars armor
-The fact you don't have evidence the phase cloak tech can be miniaturized enough to apply to warheads
-The fact that you're assuming that Trek cloaks can defeat Wars sensors, when they can't even defeat Trek ones (engine exhaust, detectable energy emmissions (STIII), tachyon grids, no mention of them masking the mass of the ship...)

A similar attack could disable a super-laser by attacking a bottleneck in the design. And most drawings of the deathstar show that such exist.

1. See above.
2. The first Death Star had such. Evidence that every superlaser will have them? While we're at it, evidence that 'most drawings' show that bottleneck?

Such an operation would be similar to the way the british x-craft were capable of damaging a far larger and more powerful Tirpitz.

What x-craft? Tirpitz was crippled by bog-standard ordinary heavy bombers, against which she was extraordinarily ill-equiped to defend herself.
The Death Star will tear any amount of Trek vessels to pieces.

Putting that out of commission for six months made the german navy reconsidder its strategy. Could putting the/a Deathstar out of comission for a year, and destroying a few SSDs make the Empire react in a similar way?

Irrelevant, as there's no way in hell Trek forces can pull this off (at least not using your retarded strategy).
Tearing your Tirpitz example to bits I'll leave to the HAB.

A few misc points:
*The phase generator required the power of the Enterprise because it was capable of cloaking a ship the size of the enterprise. A smaller device, with reduced capacity, might be considderably smaller, with lesser power requirements.

Or it might not. As the device was not DESIGNED to cloak a vessel the size of Enterprise, it is entirely apropriate to assume that was it's MINIMUM power requirements.

*An imperial starship, that spotted the phased warship, might be able to out-run the attacker. But during the jump to warp Federation ships demonstrate accelerations in the tens of millions of Gees. The picard manouver could jump a ship directly in front of the target vessel.

1.Garbage. The jump to Warp indicates that Fed vessels can jump to Warp. until and unless you can prove they IMMEDIATELY reach Warp whatever the accelleration is up for grabs.
2.As the Picard manouver was used exactly once chances are it isn't all it's claimed to be (actually it should't work AT ALL but since Trek races twnd to be abominably stupid...). Proof that it'll work against Wars sensors (given that it shouldn't against Trek ones (and was successfully countered by Data...)
3.Let's assume it worked. Congratulations. You are now in a position to use KT level weapons against a vessel with TT/PT level shielding.

*An imperial starship, that spotted the phased warship, might be able to manouver in such a way to make precise targetting of the demolition charge impossible. But there is evidence that large explosions within the hulls of Imperator ships can severely damage them.

The Imperator can manouver in a way that makes it impossible to ever enter it, even assuming your asinine phase cloak idea works. It out-accelerates Federation ships seven ways from Sunday.

*America's industrial capacity is not measured by the metal workshops on her naval ships. It is likely that the Federation has facilities for rapid production of phase-generators,

As they have NO working example of it and are LEGALLY FORBIDDEN from using the tech, NO.

(or could produce such facilities quickly) even if they do not already have a stockpile.

Blatant lie.

[Terr Fangbite]

What makes you think that the runabout, even if it could get phased-cloak, could be in the right place, at the right time, and get to the deathstar before it just blows up the planet and moves on?

[ANTIcarrot.]

Do you have anger management problems Mr Batman?

The Enterprise D was not designed to operate a phase cloak. Yet they plugged it in and it worked with apparently little effort. I submit this as evidence of P&P capacity.

If, as I suppose, you're referring to the 'Pegasus' phase cloak, the Fed's don't have it.

They designed and built it. No matter what happened to the original, copies can be made. Oh, and 'evidence please' the Federation doesn't have it anymore.

1. Evidence. What episode was that, were those humanoids using Fed cloaks etc... 2. 'Impressive' is relative. Given the amount of energy obtainable by M/AM is limited I seriously doubt the 'shielding' inside a Warp core is even within hailing distance of Wars shields.

1. The one where they respond to a Romulan ship that had a similar device blow up in their faces.
2. Using similar maths to derive the capacities of SW technology, ST shields can be shown capable of repelling attacks in the tens of thousands of gigatons. As has been said elsewhere, theoretical physics can prove an elephant can hang off a cliff with its tail wrapped round a dandelion leaf. But if those are the standards to be used...

And we also see phased characters breathing unphased air, being affected by unphased gravity, and seeing unphased light, so your 'phased matter doesn't interact with unphased matter' theory sort of breaks down.

<shrug> We repeatedly see the Empire getting their backside handed to them in the cannon sources, so your whole 'the empire cannot ever be defeated' theory breaks down as well. The fact that your personal knowledge of science cannot explain such things, does not mean the technology can't or shouldn't be used in the debate.

Ops. My mistake about the transphasic torpedoes.

Need I really bring up the Zahn books?

Oh, yes. Please do. Particularly the part where it mentions a cloaking device as one of the secrets of incalculable value Palpatine had locked away from everyone else in his own private mountain.

Phasing technology is what you use so you can pass through normal matter and many forms of energy; and hide inside a planet.

Claims that SW matter ignored because there's no evidence the other way. Stalemate. Claim about effectiveness against ST sensors ignored because of prior evidence to the contrary.

Most DS drawings show 'narrow' power conduits that connect the mechanism to the power core. Damage/destroy one of these and the super laser either cannot fire or cannot recharge.

Blatant and wilful ignorance of WWII history ignored.

Not garbage. I forget which episode but the view is shown from within Ten Forward one time, and the process takes about ten seconds. We watch bridge officers jumping to warp all the time and it always takes seconds.

As the device was not DESIGNED to cloak a vessel the size of Enterprise, it is entirely appropriate to assume that was it's MINIMUM power requirements.

At whatever power it was operating at, it was apparently capable of fooling a Romulan warbird; a ship built by a race with unquestionable experience with many forms of cloaking technology.

Pointless trek bashing ignored. Standard warhead is ~60MT Use a 100kg 'bottle' instead and you have a 2GT 'demolition charge'. As a rule, such explosives are often tiny in comparison to where they are placed, because they do not use brute force. And I have seen little evidence for massive shielding inside SW ships.

ANTIcarrot.

[ANTIcarrot.]

What makes you think that the runabout, even if it could get phased-cloak, could be in the right place, at the right time, and get to the deathstar before it just blows up the planet and moves on?

Because you could put a hundred runabouts or comparative ships in each major Federation system, and scatter them around every Federation fleet. The Imperials would be drawn like bees to honey, as they are in countless fanfictions (expecting the battle to end like countless fanfictions), and get ambushed.

ANTIcarrot.

[ANTIcarrot.]

Using the same 'dandelion leaf' math used to arrive at SW energy levels, I present you with the *other* end of the Enterprise D theoretical shield capacity:

Warp 9.6 ~ 2,000C
Power usage is 2*10^9W/C
Peak power = 4*10^18W
Reactor chamber 2.5m diameter and 2.3 tall.
Assuming sphere of 1.25m radius;
Area = 19.6M^2
Shielding effect per unit area = 2*10^17W (continuous capacity)
Length of enterprise ~ 600m
Assuming spherical shield for simplicity;
Area = 1,130,973m^2
Assuming shields are similarly capable;
Continuous power capacity = 2.2*10^23watts.
20MT ~ 1kg’s worth of energy = 9*10^16J
1GT = 4.5*10^18J

Hence Enterprise must be capable of taking hits in the 1,000GT range at a rate greater than one a second. Obviously.

ANTIcarrot.

[Darth Wong]

You say that you could not find any reference to Pegasus or the phasing cloak in the site Archives; that is a lie. Such material is all over the place, not to mention being on the main site. I hate liars. Start dealing honestly.

[ANTIcarrot.]

"Phased cloak" + search engine = no references

I didn't spend hours looking. Please by all means supply URLs. I'm curious as to how the discussion has gone previously.

ANTIcarrot.

[Ghost Rider]

Try without the D moron.

And just to ask because retard moron use this or the Genesis Torpedo as usually the first volley in their inane stupidity, prove that the Federation has the capability of reproducing this technology.

Y'know just like they did against the Borg and the Dominion who were ravaging their territories.

[Soontir C'boath]

*snip*

Type in under Episode name "Pegasus" and you'll have it in the database. You didn't try hard enough.

[Techno_Union]

2. Using similar maths to derive the capacities of SW technology, ST shields can be shown capable of repelling attacks in the tens of thousands of gigatons. As has been said elsewhere, theoretical physics can prove an elephant can hang off a cliff with its tail wrapped round a dandelion leaf. But if those are the standards to be used...

Perhaps you don't realize that SW's power outputs are already in canon? Ergo, no calcs are needed to do SW shields or weapons.

<shrug> We repeatedly see the Empire getting their backside handed to them in the cannon sources, so your whole 'the empire cannot ever be defeated' theory breaks down as well. The fact that your personal knowledge of science cannot explain such things, does not mean the technology can't or shouldn't be used in the debate.

Nice way to avoid his reply. The Empire would not be beaten by the Federation, or any other non-omnipotent power in ST; you have to face that fact.

Oh, yes. Please do. Particularly the part where it mentions a cloaking device as one of the secrets of incalculable value Palpatine had locked away from everyone else in his own private mountain.

And? SW has more than one type of cloak. The OR used cloaks, the Empire used cloaks, ect.

Most DS drawings show 'narrow' power conduits that connect the mechanism to the power core. Damage/destroy one of these and the super laser either cannot fire or cannot recharge.

So you propose that a ship decloak inside the DS and fire?

At whatever power it was operating at, it was apparently capable of fooling a Romulan warbird; a ship built by a race with unquestionable experience with many forms of cloaking technology.

What evidence ydo you have that the Romulans can detect cloaked ships?

Pointless trek bashing ignored. Standard warhead is ~60MT Use a 100kg 'bottle' instead and you have a 2GT 'demolition charge'. As a rule, such explosives are often tiny in comparison to where they are placed, because they do not use brute force. And I have seen little evidence for massive shielding inside SW ships.

Again, so you want a ship to decloak in a ship and fire?

[Techno_Union]

ANTI, if you want to see Wong's own comments on the episode, go here and type in "Pegasus".

[Techno_Union]

Ah crap, sorry, I didn't see Soontir C'boath's reply.

[Batman]

Do you have anger management problems Mr Batman?

I am The Batman. That I have anger management problems is canon fact.

The Enterprise D was not designed to operate a phase cloak. Yet they plugged it in and it worked with apparently little effort. I submit this as evidence of P&P capacity.

Uh-huh. And this supports your theory that it will do so with reduced power requirements how, exactly?

If, as I suppose, you're referring to the 'Pegasus' phase cloak, the Fed's don't have it.

They designed and built it. No matter what happened to the original, copies can be made.

Evidence please. A sole Fed nutjob coming up with it does not equal the Feds being able to.

Oh, and 'evidence please' the Federation doesn't have it anymore.

You ARE aware tat's a concession, yes?

1. Evidence. What episode was that, were those humanoids using Fed cloaks etc... 2. 'Impressive' is relative. Given the amount of energy obtainable by M/AM is limited I seriously doubt the 'shielding' inside a Warp core is even within hailing distance of Wars shields.

1. The one where they respond to a Romulan ship that had a similar device blow up in their faces.

Thank you for providing ni numbers whatsoever.

2. Using similar maths to derive the capacities of SW technology, ST shields can be shown capable of repelling attacks in the tens of thousands of gigatons.

You have evidence of that, of course.

As has been said elsewhere, theoretical physics can prove an elephant can hang off a cliff with its tail wrapped round a dandelion leaf. But if those are the standards to be used...

You are of course aware that example is garbage.

And we also see phased characters breathing unphased air, being affected by unphased gravity, and seeing unphased light, so your 'phased matter doesn't interact with unphased matter' theory sort of breaks down.

<shrug> We repeatedly see the Empire getting their backside handed to them in the cannon sources, so your whole 'the empire cannot ever be defeated' theory breaks down as well.

1. It's canon sources (note the lack of the second n) and I never said it couldn't. Nevertheless phased matter definitely interacts with unphased physical/chemical phenomena otherwise Geordi and Ro would have died. Which they didn't.

The fact that your personal knowledge of science cannot explain such things, does not mean the technology can't or shouldn't be used in the debate.

The fact that phased matter clearly interacts with unphased matter blows YOUR theory clean out of the water- deal with it.

Ops. My mistake about the transphasic torpedoes.

That may be the only smart thing you did in this thread.

Need I really bring up the Zahn books?

Oh, yes. Please do. Particularly the part where it mentions a cloaking device as one of the secrets of incalculable value Palpatine had locked away from everyone else in his own private mountain.

Are you on drugs? The Zahn books clearly indicate that cloaking devices, while obviously not an everyday occurance, are frequent enough that
just about everyone analysing the Sluis Van fiasco agreed that the freighter with the cloaked cargo hold was a main feature.

Phasing technology is what you use so you can pass through normal matter and many forms of energy; and hide inside a planet.

Evidence that phase a phase cloak can be used to hide inside anything but a carbonacious asteroid, please.

Claims that SW matter ignored because there's no evidence the other way. Stalemate.

You wish. Burden of evidence is on YOU to show that phase cloaks can phase through any matter no matter(no pun intended) the densitiy.

Claim about effectiveness against ST sensors ignored because of prior evidence to the contrary.

Which is quite simply nonexistent. Evidence, please?

Most DS drawings show 'narrow' power conduits that connect the mechanism to the power core. Damage/destroy one of these and the super laser either cannot fire or cannot recharge.

Evidence. You ASSUME that to be true.

Blatant and wilful ignorance of WWII history ignored.

Too bad I'm The Batman. I'd be laughing out loud otherwise.

Not garbage. I forget which episode but the view is shown from within Ten Forward one time, and the process takes about ten seconds. We watch bridge officers jumping to warp all the time and it always takes seconds.

Thank you for completely ignoring the point. Evidence for the ship IMMEDIATELY reaching Warp whatever, please? Not, I'd like to add,that that's a Newtonian manouver.

As the device was not DESIGNED to cloak a vessel the size of Enterprise, it is entirely appropriate to assume that was it's MINIMUM power requirements.

At whatever power it was operating at, it was apparently capable of fooling a Romulan warbird; a ship built by a race with unquestionable experience with many forms of cloaking technology.

Which says what about its power consumption?

Pointless trek bashing ignored. Standard warhead is ~60MT

Evidence. The TM is not canon. Onscreen evidence puts PTs in the mid-to high kiloton range.

[Stark]

Great. Another Silver Bullet Moron.

The idiot ignores all the actual interactions in favour of the non-interactions. He ignores the description of a 'phasing rate' in Pegasus. He assumes SW reactors cook off when someone introduces a 12MT AM warhead into them. He ignores the gravity = tractor beam aspect. He also ignores the gravity shadow method of detection.

And I can't believe he uses the warp jump as a measure of acceleration. THAT is the dumbest shit ever. But hey, it MAKES SENSE to pull ridiculous numbers out of your ass, even if those number are refuted by every other canon event. Yay.

[Praxis]

Hey,
Actually, this has been done. Just a quick refutation:

I did a search of the archives, and didn't find any mention of this strategy anywhere. My appologies if I'm repeating an old arguement...

The Federation has 'plug and play' phased cloak technology as demonstrated in the Next Generation. In another episode we saw three cloaked humanoids pass through normal matter and various forms of energy shielding, which IIRC included one sticking his head inside the warp core. (Say what you like about external shielding, they *have* to have some impressive shields inside that!)

Note that when Ro, Geordi, and the romulan were phase cloaked...they were affected by gravity! When the Romulan was thrown off the ship, he floated, and when they were in the ship, they could walk around. Obviously, the gravity was affecting them.

Therefore, Trek phase cloaks are affected by gravity, so a gravity-based tractor beam, or gravity based sensors (CGT sensors, or the Empire's anti-cloak sensors that can detect the gravity of a cloaked ship, would therefore work), should be able to deal with phase cloaked ships.

We also see a phased explosion has no effect on normal matter. Plus in the last episode of voyager we see phased torpedos passing through borg shields.

Actually, we know that Borg shields are useless unless they have adapted. In "I, Q", the first Federation-Borg meeting, their phaser and torpedo blasts went straight through the Borg shields and blasted huge holes in the Cube. After they adapted though it hardly did any damage. The transphasic torpedo is simply an armor-peircing torpedo with a rapidly phasing frequency, so the Borg cannot adapt. It goes through Borg shields and explodes inside the ship.

It is also my understanding that the Empire has little understanding or experience of cloaking technology, and absolutely no experience with phasing technology.

Incorrect, the Empire does have CGT sensors that can pick up cloaked ships installed on command ships (such as Super Star Destroyers?) and defense stations.

[FedRebel]

In "I, Q", the first Federation-Borg meeting,

Correction "Q Who?" was the first Borg/Fed encounter

I don't recall a Trek episode called "I, Q"

[Kruk]

-The fact that you have no evidence you can phase through Wars shields
-The fact that you have no evidence you can phase through Wars armor

Now that was funny to read. Without the 'Wars' part it will be a fact, with it it's the same as saying
- The fact is you have no evidence that turbolasers work against Trek shields


Now something I've thought about 'gravity/air' interaction with phased objects. It's true, that the romulan has floated when he leaved the ship. But it's also true, that Ro and Geordi were walking around normaly, and not were pulled to the gravity generators. Also - if they were able to communicate with voice - and thus interacting with air - why noone else heard them?

Praxis - we dont know how transphasic works. It's only your assumption. It could be as good torpedo phased torpedo as good as a mechanism with little Q inside.
Queen ship has 'normal' shielding, the same goes for TC - shields which work before adapting.

[harbringer]

As evidence that the Federation cannot/will not produce phase cloaks at will I put forward that the one on the reliant was actually wanted if they could build *millions* they would have simply destroyed the ship that alternated phase and was therefore able to be destroyed.

As we don't know what caused the reliant's accident exactly you cannot assume it can without risk or problems be the answer you want. For all we know it was the captain trying to go through the asteroid that did it (although sabotage is hinted at).

Star wars does use cloaks it was simply indetectable cloaks that palpy had put by.

What about using force sense of a jedi as an example or a GCT sensor to find said cloaked ship and avoid it.

Your calculations are all based on a non canon source, I know that is annoying for you anti carrot but true therefore they hold all the water of a very thin unwaxed paper bag.

You still havent said exactly how the ship could even launch ordinance and remain cloaked yet (not that it matters over much....for all the reasons people have given you).

You haven't proved in anyway that it might be possible for the federation to do this (or want to). You havent proved that it might be possible or thought it through. You don't like the answer so you ignore that which is canon for star wars... cheer up your not alone there are many other trekkie's out there to sulk with you.

Bottom line : find a new hobby or figure out an ORIGINAL and well thought out way for Star Trek to win under the rules of the game

[Mr Bean]

-The fact that you have no evidence you can phase through Wars shields
-The fact that you have no evidence you can phase through Wars armor

Now that was funny to read. Without the 'Wars' part it will be a fact, with it it's the same as saying
- The fact is you have no evidence that turbolasers work against Trek shields

I just had to jump in here on this burden of proof fallicy but lets say I'm being generous

Lets say we know that your avarage Proton Torp does 64 megatons of destruction in an omni-directional explosion(But for fun lets say its all direction ergo 64 Megatons of explosives striking the same target)

Then let us say we have NUMEROUS(Infact the entirty of ST) examples of Roughly how many of said torps it takes to take down the avarage ST Captial Ship shield
Annd then let us say that its 50(Even though that is ludicously high and we have tons of examples of full shields being reduced to zero from far less)

We end up with a nice 3.2 Gigatons of protection(If we use the 64 Megatonx50 figure)
3.2 Gigatons eh?
Think the Medium guns of a TRANSPORT ship can deliver 200 gigatons of raw energy

Now a shields purpose is to shut aside/asorb damage and protect the ship, if it can only take a 1/60th(rounded) as much energy as being pumped in... its going to collapse

And keep in mind we have canon examples of SW Crusiers exchanging broadsides and it still required multiple broadsides for the shields to be brought down..

The thing is see, Force is Force, Pressure is Pressure, regardless of what generates it, you have to deal with it, be it beam weaponry or kinetic strike


Oh and one more thing the SW ships have Armor STRONG enough to keep fighting with their shields down, Strong enough to take 200 gigaton plus hits and keep on going

Think about it

[Kruk]

But You still have no EVIDENCE that turbolaser will work. Have You? No.

I wrote to show, that saying that nomething wont work because it's from 'other side' (Trek phase cloak against Wars shields) can work in both directions - (Wars weapon agains Trek shields).
And that using such statements as a 'prove' or 'fact' dont say to well about writer.

And I think I've write the part about 'fun' in such statement?

[Ghost Rider]

But You still have no EVIDENCE that turbolaser will work. Have You? No.

I wrote to show, that saying that nomething wont work because it's from 'other side' (Trek phase cloak against Wars shields) can work in both directions - (Wars weapon agains Trek shields).
And that using such statements as a 'prove' or 'fact' dont say to well about writer.

And I think I've write the part about 'fun' in such statement?

LMAO...ah so dipshit you want to use "Prove how it works?!"

Ah the can of worms this opens up.

Y'know what dumbfuck, if we end up opening this can...in the end neither of us will prove anything works and will be sitting with our hands up our asses...plus this the point wherein you've decided to shift the burden of proof because you have nothing. You don't know either now do you you sheep fucking moron?

Ah, it's nice to see that some retarded fools will try one of the oldest fanwhore tricks because they still don't like to acknowledge that what you see is what you get and must try every possible fallacious loophole they can to look more and more like a retard.

But for the dumbfuck again

Shifting the Burden of Proof is for dumbfucks and retards, thanks for showing that you're a fanwhore with no leg to stand on .

[Kruk]

Oh, I remembered something. This time a point for 'the other' side.

At whatever power it was operating at, it was apparently capable of fooling a Romulan warbird; a ship built by a race with unquestionable experience with many forms of cloaking technology.

Yes, and a race that was not able to detect enemy (Klingon) ship with inferior (obtained from Romulans who are seen as 'master' of cloak-tech) cloaking technology in the orbit of their home planet beaming (and from The Search we know that for transport ship must deactivate cloak) peoples on to planet surface (Unification episode). It speaks a lot about Romulan abilities to detect cloaked ships, hmm.