Why would ST have prolems with Basic?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-12-13 04:44am

At least the Main site gives the impression that Basic (the main Empire and/or Republic language) would very diffucult (if not impossible) to translate for the Federation (or AQ power for that matter), But Basic was the Republic/Empire trade language. So it would be logical that, it was developed to be easy to learn or was easiest to learn of the various human languages to reach such a status (most SW aliens at least understand Basic). From (IMHO) we conclude that Federation could translate the spoken form of Basic with little problem. (written form and/or any coded messages are a totally nother matter).

(and yes I know that the Universal Translator very limited learning capablities, but still...)

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2004-12-13 04:55am

Well they shouldn't have any problems with it, every alien in SW is capable of learning it, some are not able to speak it though. If the feds were able to get their hands on the "alphabet" of basic, they should be able to translate basic relatively quickly.

-Gunhead

Adun · Post by **Adun** » 2004-12-13 06:47am

Why would they?. Isn´t Basic just English?.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-12-13 07:06am

why would it be english, when the planet english came from doesnt exist yet?

'long time ago, galaxy farfar away'

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-12-13 08:22am

The language of trade, air traffic control etc, is English...it is to be honest among the most difficult languages we've got...

In the ST galaxy, you'll remember, a super-whatever race seeded all the worlds so that humanoid life would grow on them. There they've got a vast common heritage (genetic and in some cases cultural) and a library of similar material to work from to get the translator working.

It's the difference between translating from english to german, and from latin to manderin

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-12-13 09:49am

well there's genetic similarity with ST human and SW Human, which limits difference between basic and know (Earth) human languages. As for english being hard, I never found the spoken form of english hard (the written form on the other hand is a monster whose inventor(s) must have been mad.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-13 09:51am

In Voyager, there never seems to be a "transition" period when talking with alien races. Unless the Universal Translator scans an alien's brain, I don't see how it could work instantly like that without using some common database. But come on. How much in common does English have with Klingon anyway. Differences in grammar might be genetic, but the words shouldn't mean exactly the same thing. The universal translator was unable to help when dealing with the alien species that spoke in metaphors in TNG, but never has a problem with aliens in Voyager (to my knowledge). Contradictions abound, unless you could argue there were improvements to the translator between TNG and VOY.

Of course you could argue that a lot of the races had their languages transferred to VOY database by Neelix.

Brian

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2004-12-13 09:55am

Lord Revan wrote:well there's genetic similarity with ST human and SW Human, which limits difference between basic and know (Earth) human languages.

No, there is a similar apperance, not neccisarly similar genetics...unlike in Star Trek, where it's flat out said in an episode that they were all made by someone else to have similar genes.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-13 09:57am

There has been so much interstellar commerce going on Star Trek (for thousands of years) that you can swap in technology from Delta or Gamma Quadrant traders into a Federation ship, for fuck's sake. To look at a translation device which works on species in this environment and say "it works great on them, so it should work great on anybody" is a huge non sequitur and an indication of an utterly infantile thinking process.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2004-12-13 10:05am

Okay, so you'd give the feds a file containing the most used words in SW basic and each word is companied by a picture what the word means. This could only be done with words that can be portrayed using pictures. The give the feds the basic alphabet. Does this sound even remotely workable? I'm no linguistic so this is pure guess work.

-Gunhead

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-13 10:06am

Gunhead wrote:Okay, so you'd give the feds a file containing the most used words in SW basic and each word is companied by a picture what the word means. This could only be done with words that can be portrayed using pictures. The give the feds the basic alphabet. Does this sound even remotely workable? I'm no linguistic so this is pure guess work.

-Gunhead

I have no problem with the idea that they could eventually figure it out, but the OP makes reference to the main site, and on the main site I merely point out that a lot of Trekkies think the Universal Translator will instantly understand Basic in a first-contact situation, which is fucking stupid.

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2004-12-13 10:12am

I have no problem with the idea that they could eventually figure it out, but the OP makes reference to the main site, and on the main site I merely point out that a lot of Trekkies think the Universal Translator will instantly understand Basic in a first-contact situation, which is fucking stupid.

I agree, but is there any good reference to language in star wars? I recall very little in the way of written text in SW movies. There could be some examples in Episode II.

-Gunhead

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-13 10:13am

Gunhead wrote:
I have no problem with the idea that they could eventually figure it out, but the OP makes reference to the main site, and on the main site I merely point out that a lot of Trekkies think the Universal Translator will instantly understand Basic in a first-contact situation, which is fucking stupid.
I agree, but is there any good reference to language in star wars? I recall very little in the way of written text in SW movies. There could be some examples in Episode II.

-Gunhead

Actually you can see the text nicely whenever R2 and Luke talk in ESB in the X-Wing.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-12-13 10:19am

Darth Wong wrote:I have no problem with the idea that they could eventually figure it out, but the OP makes reference to the main site, and on the main site I merely point out that a lot of Trekkies think the Universal Translator will instantly understand Basic in a first-contact situation, which is fucking stupid.

Like I said that the main site gives an impression, not that it says so. And for those who think I meant that Federation could translate Basic the first time they hear it, that was not what I meant but that the translation could be done before the Federation is overrun by the SW force they're fighting against.

As for the more exotic languages like hutteese (or god forbid something like Rakata(n)) they are compleatly overmachted,

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-12-13 10:24am

Lord Revan wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:I have no problem with the idea that they could eventually figure it out, but the OP makes reference to the main site, and on the main site I merely point out that a lot of Trekkies think the Universal Translator will instantly understand Basic in a first-contact situation, which is fucking stupid.
Like I said that the main site gives an impression, not that it says so. And for those who think I meant that Federation could translate Basic the first time they hear it, that was not what I meant but that the translation could be done before the Federation is overrun by the SW force they're fighting against.

An Imperial sector fleet could overrun the Federation in a matter of days. They would only be able to translate quickly enough due to reciprocal assistance from the other side. The Imperials would have to work with them on language so the Federation would know how to transmit the message "we surrender".

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-12-13 10:31am

Darth Wong wrote:An Imperial sector fleet could overrun the Federation in a matter of days. They would only be able to translate quickly enough due to reciprocal assistance from the other side. The Imperials would have to work with them on language so the Federation would know how to transmit the message "we surrender".

It took few hours for ENT era UT to figure a totally alien language (spoken form), in that Episode where Archer and Hoshi where transformed into those aliens (sure ENT sucks, but it's still canon).

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-13 10:29pm

brianeyci wrote:In Voyager, there never seems to be a "transition" period when talking with alien races. Unless the Universal Translator scans an alien's brain, I don't see how it could work instantly like that without using some common database. But come on. How much in common does English have with Klingon anyway. Differences in grammar might be genetic, but the words shouldn't mean exactly the same thing. The universal translator was unable to help when dealing with the alien species that spoke in metaphors in TNG, but never has a problem with aliens in Voyager (to my knowledge). Contradictions abound, unless you could argue there were improvements to the translator between TNG and VOY.

Of course you could argue that a lot of the races had their languages transferred to VOY database by Neelix.

Brian

In DS9, there was a race from the Gamma Quadrant whose language took over 24 hours of them constantly speaking before it was able to BEGIN to translate.

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2004-12-14 09:46pm

Further, there was a TNG episode where they had the Children of Tama. The episode clearly showed that the language they spoke was untranslatable, and Picard had to learn the basics of it in order to communicate.

The Dark · Post by **The Dark** » 2004-12-14 09:57pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
Gunhead wrote:
I have no problem with the idea that they could eventually figure it out, but the OP makes reference to the main site, and on the main site I merely point out that a lot of Trekkies think the Universal Translator will instantly understand Basic in a first-contact situation, which is fucking stupid.
I agree, but is there any good reference to language in star wars? I recall very little in the way of written text in SW movies. There could be some examples in Episode II.

-Gunhead
Actually you can see the text nicely whenever R2 and Luke talk in ESB in the X-Wing.

IIRC, there are also a couple other computer screens that show text. Also, Vader's chest box appears to have Hebrew lettering on it (at least, the letters match up...don't know what meaning there is, since I haven't seen my Hebrew prof).

apocolypse · Post by **apocolypse** » 2004-12-14 10:17pm

Gunhead wrote:
I have no problem with the idea that they could eventually figure it out, but the OP makes reference to the main site, and on the main site I merely point out that a lot of Trekkies think the Universal Translator will instantly understand Basic in a first-contact situation, which is fucking stupid.
I agree, but is there any good reference to language in star wars? I recall very little in the way of written text in SW movies. There could be some examples in Episode II.

-Gunhead

Try googling Aurabesh. It will give you some links to examples of it.

Drooling Iguana · Post by **Drooling Iguana** » 2004-12-14 10:28pm

Well, if the GFFAians are willing to cooperate, the Feds could just send them copies of the Star Wars movies and have them dub them over (shouldn't be too hard, since it's their own history.) That would provide both sides with a reasonably solid understanding of the other's language, enough to program a UT and a couple of protocol droids, at least.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-12-14 10:53pm

assuming the tapes havent been destroyed in the assorted wars, timetravel fiascos, and cultural cleansings.

Enola Straight · Post by **Enola Straight** » 2004-12-14 11:35pm

In ST, when two ships meet in space, one opens a standard hail.

Perhaps instead of this hail being a simple "doorbell" the hailing ship is signaling the other ship with a simplified translation matrix.

I figure, Linguicode may be refined and streamlined over the years.

Would this help any?

Kurgan · Post by **Kurgan** » 2004-12-15 01:30pm

Sorry for the stupid, newbish question, but what exactly does "GFFA" stand for?

Thanks.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » 2004-12-15 01:37pm

Galaxy Far Far Away