Federation post conquest

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-12-17 02:55am

Would the average Federation citizen be better off under the Empire ?

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-12-17 06:23am

if we presumed federation = communist, and the economic free market seen in all the eu, probably.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-12-17 06:39am

Well, the Earth humans might. I'm not sure how the Empire's rather creative Sapience Classification Department would handle Vulcans and Betazoids and all the aliens. I think they'd be classified as near-human and at least have a shot. If there are some species that are further from the human "norm", I'm thinking at least some of them would be looked at and reclassified as Sub-Sapient. Life won't be very good for them after that.

As for Federation humans ... they'd be mostly fine ... unless their planetary government tries to play something. Then that planet is doomed.

As for the rest of them ... hint #1: When you protest, start leaving when you are directly in the path of an Imperial official (like you are sitting on the landing pad he plans to use). And please pay your taxes on time. Remember, for every extra Imperial credit coming from each Terran citizen, the Empire can have one more Star Destroyer, so your sacrifice is definitely worth it

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2004-12-17 08:37am

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Remember, for every extra Imperial credit coming from each Terran citizen, the Empire can have one more Star Destroyer, so your sacrifice is definitely worth it

It would make an excellent propaganda poster, y'know!

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-17 11:52am

Hasn't this thread been done before. Seesh.

What do you consider the "average Fed citizen"?

What do you consider the "average Empire citizen"?

How much do you know about the Federation economic system?

How much do you know about the daily life of a Federation citizen?

How much do you know about the daily life of an Empire citizen?

Exactly, nothing. We can't say anything except guess based on a few examples, and that's fucking unrepresentative sample.

Brian

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-17 12:01pm

Actually, we can say alot, Brian, once we apply ourselves.

We know that the Federation's economy is heavily restricted, with little consumer choice, and no investment. Purchases within the Federation can be made on an 'account', presumably with credits. Purchases of anything from outside, however, must be conducted in primitive barter.

The Empire, though, is a thriving capitalist system. Practically every product has a competitor from another company, so there's plenty of consumer choice, and the inherent bonuses there. Investment exists nicely. Purchases are made in a single, robust currency backed by the Empire. Probably, the Empire's guns.

Day to day life.. A citizen in the Empire can do alot more than a Federation one, simply because they enjoy more freedoms. They can own starships and weaponry(Paradise Lost nicely demonstrates the lack of weaponry on Earth, and there's alot of folks who would consider the right to arm yourself important. As for starships? We simply don't see any in private hands aside from the occasional smuggler. In the Empire, well, the crowded spaceports speak for themselves..).

More mobility, better economy, more rights... Sounds better to me.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2004-12-17 12:13pm

brianeyci wrote:Hasn't this thread been done before. Seesh.

What do you consider the "average Fed citizen"?

Robert Picard?

brianeyci wrote: What do you consider the "average Empire citizen"?

Ranging from Prince Xizor to Uncle Owen, I think it's quite difficult to conclude.

brianeyci wrote: How much do you know about the Federation economic system?

Communism. This has been done to death as well.

brianeyci wrote: How much do you know about the daily life of a Federation citizen?

Honestly, I couldn't find anymore sources than TNG: Brothers. Anyone?

brianeyci wrote: How much do you know about the daily life of an Empire citizen?

Not much depicted in the movies as well, while I'm not very well-versed with EU. In Truce of Bakura, however, the female Senator that had infatuation with Luke (couldn't remember her name) was politically oppressed. She however enjoyed the same lifestlye as average people in developed countries (lavish apartment, high-end stereo, etc).

Could we assume that Imperial citizens, while politically oppressed, were actually enjoying good living standards?

brianeyci wrote: Exactly, nothing. We can't say anything except guess based on a few examples, and that's fucking unrepresentative sample.
Brian

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2004-12-17 12:14pm

SirNitram wrote:Actually, we can say alot, Brian, once we apply ourselves.

We know that the Federation's economy is heavily restricted, with little consumer choice, and no investment. Purchases within the Federation can be made on an 'account', presumably with credits. Purchases of anything from outside, however, must be conducted in primitive barter.

The Empire, though, is a thriving capitalist system. Practically every product has a competitor from another company, so there's plenty of consumer choice, and the inherent bonuses there. Investment exists nicely. Purchases are made in a single, robust currency backed by the Empire. Probably, the Empire's guns.

Day to day life.. A citizen in the Empire can do alot more than a Federation one, simply because they enjoy more freedoms. They can own starships and weaponry(Paradise Lost nicely demonstrates the lack of weaponry on Earth, and there's alot of folks who would consider the right to arm yourself important. As for starships? We simply don't see any in private hands aside from the occasional smuggler. In the Empire, well, the crowded spaceports speak for themselves..).

More mobility, better economy, more rights... Sounds better to me.

Damn, I missed this post before posting my own. I guess Nitram has better view than I am.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-17 12:35pm

Yes, I would rather live in the Empire. But only because we know more about the Empire than the Federation. Paradise Lost illustrates one extreme example, and only on Earth. Palpatine is an extreme example for the Empire, and Palpatine succeeded until Skywalker while the Fed Admiral was quickly put down in the space of a single episode. The Federation doesn't maintain a ground army, and it doesn't replace member institutions. A Vulcan life would be very different than an Earth life. The Federation is not Earth only.

SirNitram wrote:Purchases are made in a single, robust currency backed by the Empire. Probably, the Empire's guns.

As an aside, how the hell does the Empire deal with counterfitting? In the RPG books, there's a credit chit or something, and if the economy has to be stable, they have to be unhackable. How is that realistic? Banks today routinely make errors, I got two bank errors this year, sure they didn't cost me a lot. But a galactic Empire? With a capitalist system and therefore people motivated by profit, and a "Corporate Sector" focused on profits, and slicers, career hackers who are hired for their talents?

The RPG also gives stats for "hacking" a credit chit I believe, DC40 or so, nearly impossible. Impossible though it may be, in a galaxy there has to be more than just a few people that can do this, and that seems dangerous to me. This is not counterfitting where you make an imperfect copy of hard currency and they can just replace it, even a single large scale instance of counterfitting might destabalize the economy in an electronic environment.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-17 12:39pm

Also, there may be people out there that do not want to live a life of capitalism. Maybe someone out there wants to be an emotionless freak, or maybe there's someone who wants to focus on intellectual pursuits. You could do this in the Empire, but in the Federation you would be free of any burden of providing for yourself since the Federation provides at the very least basic essentials for every citizen.

Owning a starship may not be such a great thing, and more mobility? Maybe there are people who don't want to visit other planets, and want to live on their own planet.

It is not as clear cut as you put it, especially when I don't know all 150 member worlds of the Federation. If I did, I would pick a nice planet that would conform to my living style and live there. The Federation would have very little to do with my life other than the occasional war, which happens in the Empire anyway. I would pick a planet far away from the borders too, so I wouldn't have to worry about being traded away for peace.

Brian

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-17 12:59pm

brianeyci wrote:Yes, I would rather live in the Empire. But only because we know more about the Empire than the Federation. Paradise Lost illustrates one extreme example, and only on Earth. Palpatine is an extreme example for the Empire, and Palpatine succeeded until Skywalker while the Fed Admiral was quickly put down in the space of a single episode. The Federation doesn't maintain a ground army, and it doesn't replace member institutions. A Vulcan life would be very different than an Earth life. The Federation is not Earth only.

Oh, so Earth is an 'extreme example'. Prove it, assmunch.

SirNitram wrote:Purchases are made in a single, robust currency backed by the Empire. Probably, the Empire's guns.
As an aside, how the hell does the Empire deal with counterfitting? In the RPG books, there's a credit chit or something, and if the economy has to be stable, they have to be unhackable. How is that realistic? Banks today routinely make errors, I got two bank errors this year, sure they didn't cost me a lot. But a galactic Empire? With a capitalist system and therefore people motivated by profit, and a "Corporate Sector" focused on profits, and slicers, career hackers who are hired for their talents?

You apparently know precisely dick about encryption. Add another digit, increase the power needed to crack it by an order of magnitude..

The RPG also gives stats for "hacking" a credit chit I believe, DC40 or so, nearly impossible. Impossible though it may be, in a galaxy there has to be more than just a few people that can do this, and that seems dangerous to me. This is not counterfitting where you make an imperfect copy of hard currency and they can just replace it, even a single large scale instance of counterfitting might destabalize the economy in an electronic environment.

Brian

Yes, there's a few who can do it. There's people who can counterfeit today. It's not the end of the fucking world. Jesus Christ.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-17 01:01pm

brianeyci wrote:Also, there may be people out there that do not want to live a life of capitalism. Maybe someone out there wants to be an emotionless freak, or maybe there's someone who wants to focus on intellectual pursuits. You could do this in the Empire, but in the Federation you would be free of any burden of providing for yourself since the Federation provides at the very least basic essentials for every citizen.

So for a few, rare examples, it's better. :rolleyes:

Owning a starship may not be such a great thing, and more mobility? Maybe there are people who don't want to visit other planets, and want to live on their own planet.

Then they don't buy a starship, duh. Are you really this stupid?

It is not as clear cut as you put it, especially when I don't know all 150 member worlds of the Federation. If I did, I would pick a nice planet that would conform to my living style and live there. The Federation would have very little to do with my life other than the occasional war, which happens in the Empire anyway. I would pick a planet far away from the borders too, so I wouldn't have to worry about being traded away for peace.

Brian

So you're going to pull an Appeal to Ignorance fallacy and screech there's a few who would enjoy the Federation better. Uh-huh. I'll wait for a competent debator, thanks.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-17 01:02pm

Okay. You all can reply to my posts in one thread rather than three, makes it easier please.

Imagine your planet finally achieved a world government. All the biogtry, hatred, and primitive instincts are behind you. Your people are immensely proud of its institutions, and are on the verge of achieving faster than light space flight. As soon as it does...

... some bozos called "The Federation" jump in and tell you the galaxy is full of evil meanies called the Klingons and the Romulans, and say you have to join their alliance. In return, your civilization will recieve immense help in the form of new technology and protection by their Starfleet.

The Federation doesn't have a ground army. So it can't land millions of troops to enforce its edicts. You lose nothing by joining the Federation. You maintain your institutions, while paying a yearly tithe to the Federation and their Starfleet for planetary defense. You create your own space fleet, medicore as it is, although some decide to join Starfleet because of its propaganda machine on your planet. But your own people maintain control. If your planet ever decides to leave the Federation, what can the Federation do? Exactly nothing. What are they going to do, land their so-called "troops" with banana phasers? Its not like they have a planet destroying weapon, and Starfleet wouldn't dare bombard your planet or the entire alliance would fall apart. Plus you slowly infiltrate Starfleet with your own people, and they tell you Starfleet is full of idealistic fools who wouldn't touch civilians. So your planet remains independent, and pays lip service to the Federation while giving it some resources every now and then so you can be protected against the big baddies like Borg, etc.

So, living on one of the 149 out of 150 other planets in the Federation other than Earth might not be as bad as "Paradise Lost". In fact, it definitely is not as bad as Paradise Lost. Are you saying that the Federation has a highly effective propaganda machine? Or that the Federation, in any way shape or form could somehow control member states' institutions or reshape the government of a planet other than Earth? Laughable. How could they do this when they don't have a ground army? Withhold technology is the only way the Feds could, and given that planets are self sufficient anyway, what species would sacrifice their own institutions, which would be an immense source of planetary pride after the long history of uniting your people?

No, the Federation isn't a totalitarian government. It isn't even a government, except on Earth, how could it be given that there is no way to control member states except withhold technology? Starfleet would fight Klingons over your planet anyway if it was near enough to Earth or the core planets.

Brian

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-17 01:05pm

Wow. An appeal to ignorance based on absolutely not evidence at all. Am I surprised? Nope!

BTW, I like how you try to paint a government which has no obligations to it's members as a good thing. So, basically, the Federation just siphons crap away from the world and provides it with nothing? Gee, what a lovely setup.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-17 01:07pm

SirNitram wrote:
brianeyci wrote:Also, there may be people out there that do not want to live a life of capitalism. Maybe someone out there wants to be an emotionless freak, or maybe there's someone who wants to focus on intellectual pursuits. You could do this in the Empire, but in the Federation you would be free of any burden of providing for yourself since the Federation provides at the very least basic essentials for every citizen.
So for a few, rare examples, it's better. :rolleyes:

It is not a rare example. For example anyone who works a minimum wage job, who wants to be freed from work. No work at all. A lot of people would take that, having bare essentials and working when you want to go to the holodeck. There are a lot of people who would want to be freed from the cycle of paycheque, spend, paycheque, spend.

Owning a starship may not be such a great thing, and more mobility? Maybe there are people who don't want to visit other planets, and want to live on their own planet.

Then they don't buy a starship, duh. Are you really this stupid?[/quote]

You made the point that the Empire is better than the Federation because of mobility, also that citizens could own a starship. I say the point is irrelevant to people who don't want to own a starship, or don't want to see the galaxy. Which would be many people. Not everybody is the adventurous Han Solo type, planets are self-sufficient.

So you're going to pull an Appeal to Ignorance fallacy and screech there's a few who would enjoy the Federation better. Uh-huh. I'll wait for a competent debator, thanks.

No, not the few. I am saying the Federation is not Earth See my post above. As well, there is still the point of mine that many people would like to be free from having to work. Ever.

Brian

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-17 01:12pm

brianeyci wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
brianeyci wrote:Also, there may be people out there that do not want to live a life of capitalism. Maybe someone out there wants to be an emotionless freak, or maybe there's someone who wants to focus on intellectual pursuits. You could do this in the Empire, but in the Federation you would be free of any burden of providing for yourself since the Federation provides at the very least basic essentials for every citizen.
So for a few, rare examples, it's better. :rolleyes:
It is not a rare example. For example anyone who works a minimum wage job, who wants to be freed from work. No work at all. A lot of people would take that, having bare essentials and working when you want to go to the holodeck. There are a lot of people who would want to be freed from the cycle of paycheque, spend, paycheque, spend.

I'd like to see you prove daily life in the Federation is better. You yourself were screeching we know nothing of it. And unlike my post, yours is based entirely on conjecture.. So go on, kiddo. Prove it.

Owning a starship may not be such a great thing, and more mobility? Maybe there are people who don't want to visit other planets, and want to live on their own planet.
Then they don't buy a starship, duh. Are you really this stupid?
You made the point that the Empire is better than the Federation because of mobility, also that citizens could own a starship. I say the point is irrelevant to people who don't want to own a starship, or don't want to see the galaxy. Which would be many people. Not everybody is the adventurous Han Solo type, planets are self-sufficient.

You are this stupid. Okay. Do you realize why restriction of transit is bad? Do you realize why the ability for citizens to own their source of mobility is good? Do you realize why most would want to?

Apparently not. Flaming fucking retard...

So you're going to pull an Appeal to Ignorance fallacy and screech there's a few who would enjoy the Federation better. Uh-huh. I'll wait for a competent debator, thanks.
No, not the few. I am saying the Federation is not Earth See my post above. As well, there is still the point of mine that many people would like to be free from having to work. Ever.

Brian

Prove it sometime, you trolling peice of dogshit. You stamp in here proclaiming we can know nothing, but, whoopsidaisey, you proclaim to know all sorts of stuff once someone uses evidence to contradict you.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-17 01:13pm

SirNitram wrote:Wow. An appeal to ignorance based on absolutely not evidence at all. Am I surprised? Nope!

Absolutely no evidence? Fucking Federation has no ground army, the fucking Federation couldn't replace member institutions and does not according to Riker in Insurrection (I believe this is correct, I will get exact quote if you want) who notes that a unified planet and a unified species are usually is what's required for joining the Federation.

Absolutely no evidence? Its fucking common sense, if a "Federation" knocked on the door of Earth and said "give up the US constitution", would they do it? How about "give up the world constitution"? And what if this "Federation" had no way to enforce its rule? You'd say yes, and pay lip service.

BTW, I like how you try to paint a government which has no obligations to it's members as a good thing. So, basically, the Federation just siphons crap away from the world and provides it with nothing? Gee, what a lovely setup.

The Federation is a government on Earth, but it can't be the government of 150 planets because it has no teeth. You pay money to them and they give you tech and a defense. It provides the world with technology and defense from Borg, Klingons, etc.

Living in the Federation doesn't have to involve living on Earth.

Brian

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-17 01:17pm

brianeyci wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Wow. An appeal to ignorance based on absolutely not evidence at all. Am I surprised? Nope!
Absolutely no evidence? Fucking Federation has no ground army, the fucking Federation couldn't replace member institutions and does not according to Riker in Insurrection (I believe this is correct, I will get exact quote if you want) who notes that a unified planet and a unified species are usually is what's required for joining the Federation.

Federation has ground forces. 'Siege Of AR-something' in DS9.

Absolutely no evidence? Its fucking common sense, if a "Federation" knocked on the door of Earth and said "give up the US constitution", would they do it? How about "give up the world constitution"? And what if this "Federation" had no way to enforce its rule? You'd say yes, and pay lip service.

Why? You're just giving them resources for no benefit. No one is going to do that, you flaming retard.

BTW, I like how you try to paint a government which has no obligations to it's members as a good thing. So, basically, the Federation just siphons crap away from the world and provides it with nothing? Gee, what a lovely setup.
The Federation is a government on Earth, but it can't be the government of 150 planets because it has no teeth. You pay money to them and they give you tech and a defense. It provides the world with technology and defense from Borg, Klingons, etc.

Again, prove it. You keep claiming all this bullshit, so why don't you stick your money where you mouth is and prove the Federation has no influence on it's member worlds. Until then, your arguments hold no water.

Living in the Federation doesn't have to involve living on Earth.

Brian

No, but the conditions on Earth are conditions in the Federation. Until you actually show some evidence otherwise, there's no reason to assume otherwise. Trolling peice of shit.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2004-12-17 01:23pm

brianeyci wrote:Yes, I would rather live in the Empire. But only because we know more about the Empire than the Federation. Paradise Lost illustrates one extreme example, and only on Earth. Palpatine is an extreme example for the Empire, and Palpatine succeeded until Skywalker while the Fed Admiral was quickly put down in the space of a single episode. The Federation doesn't maintain a ground army, and it doesn't replace member institutions. A Vulcan life would be very different than an Earth life. The Federation is not Earth only.

SirNitram wrote:Purchases are made in a single, robust currency backed by the Empire. Probably, the Empire's guns.
As an aside, how the hell does the Empire deal with counterfitting? In the RPG books, there's a credit chit or something, and if the economy has to be stable, they have to be unhackable. How is that realistic? Banks today routinely make errors, I got two bank errors this year, sure they didn't cost me a lot. But a galactic Empire? With a capitalist system and therefore people motivated by profit, and a "Corporate Sector" focused on profits, and slicers, career hackers who are hired for their talents?

The RPG also gives stats for "hacking" a credit chit I believe, DC40 or so, nearly impossible. Impossible though it may be, in a galaxy there has to be more than just a few people that can do this, and that seems dangerous to me. This is not counterfitting where you make an imperfect copy of hard currency and they can just replace it, even a single large scale instance of counterfitting might destabalize the economy in an electronic environment.

Brian

What you've described about the Empire is not much different from our world today. Except, of course, if you really believe we're now currently living in global communist paradise, people is NOT motivated by profit, and Microsoft or Coca Cola is really focused on charity. And what makes you think career hacker is NOT exist in the world we live today?

Second, why do you think your financial loss will be WAY bigger in the Empire than the world we live today? You pointed out there's some RISK on Credit Card transaction in the Empire, but so is in the world today! If you think it's **dangerous**, then you may as well closing all your Credit Cards & Bank Accounts and start hiding cash under the pillow.

brianeyci wrote: even a single large scale instance of counterfitting might destabalize the economy in an electronic environment.

Also thanks for pointing the obvious. Of course a sufficiently large counterfeiting might distrupt economy but what is the likeliness such thing would happen? Are you ignoring the fact that modern financial institutions do have measures to prevent such things to happen? Do the words "transaction limit" ring a bell?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-17 01:24pm

SirNitram wrote:I'd like to see you prove daily life in the Federation is better. You yourself were screeching we know nothing of it. And unlike my post, yours is based entirely on conjecture.. So go on, kiddo. Prove it.

There exactly is the problem. "Better" is a very subjective thing. I say that "better" for many people would mean being freed from having to live a life of buying, earning, buying, earning, and have your government provide for you. That is hard probably for you to see, since you probably earn quite enough money to support yourself, but there would be many who would give up earning money for a holodeck and a government paycheque. Hence, the Federation would be better for many people.

You are this stupid. Okay. Do you realize why restriction of transit is bad? Do you realize why the ability for citizens to own their source of mobility is good? Do you realize why most would want to?

Apparently not. Flaming fucking retard...

Fine, citizens owning their own source of mobility is good, point for Empire. And the Federation can restrict transit by restricting space travel, fine.

Prove it sometime, you trolling peice of dogshit. You stamp in here proclaiming we can know nothing, but, whoopsidaisey, you proclaim to know all sorts of stuff once someone uses evidence to contradict you.

Fine, there is evidence out there, I just didn't think hard enough. My main objection was that we didn't see a representative sample.

Brian

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-17 01:26pm

brianeyci wrote:
SirNitram wrote:I'd like to see you prove daily life in the Federation is better. You yourself were screeching we know nothing of it. And unlike my post, yours is based entirely on conjecture.. So go on, kiddo. Prove it.
There exactly is the problem. "Better" is a very subjective thing. I say that "better" for many people would mean being freed from having to live a life of buying, earning, buying, earning, and have your government provide for you. That is hard probably for you to see, since you probably earn quite enough money to support yourself, but there would be many who would give up earning money for a holodeck and a government paycheque. Hence, the Federation would be better for many people.

You lying peice of shit. You have made up situations and then made up people for whom you think it would be better.. Sadly, you failed to prove either exist, especially in the Federation. You lose. Good day sir.

You are this stupid. Okay. Do you realize why restriction of transit is bad? Do you realize why the ability for citizens to own their source of mobility is good? Do you realize why most would want to?

Apparently not. Flaming fucking retard...
Fine, citizens owning their own source of mobility is good, point for Empire. And the Federation can restrict transit by restricting space travel, fine.

Wow, you conceeded a point. At this rate, you should finally admit you have no evidence in this thread sometime around New Years.

Prove it sometime, you trolling peice of dogshit. You stamp in here proclaiming we can know nothing, but, whoopsidaisey, you proclaim to know all sorts of stuff once someone uses evidence to contradict you.
Fine, there is evidence out there, I just didn't think hard enough. My main objection was that we didn't see a representative sample.

Brian

You can claim that. Tell you what. Come back when you have proof, kiddo.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-17 01:33pm

SirNitram wrote:Federation has ground forces. 'Siege Of AR-something' in DS9.

Naval personnel pressed into ground roles? They even have the same uniform and carry the same banana phasers. There's no evidence that the Federation has a dedicated ground army. They were beaming down crew from ships in Paradise Lost, not deploying from ground bases.

Why? You're just giving them resources for no benefit. No one is going to do that, you flaming retard.

Because if you don't, you don't get the special medicine that cures kidney dialysis, or replicators, or transporters, or protection from Klingons.

The Federation is a government on Earth, but it can't be the government of 150 planets because it has no teeth. You pay money to them and they give you tech and a defense. It provides the world with technology and defense from Borg, Klingons, etc.
Again, prove it. You keep claiming all this bullshit, so why don't you stick your money where you mouth is and prove the Federation has no influence on it's member worlds. Until then, your arguments hold no water.

Living in the Federation doesn't have to involve living on Earth.

Brian
No, but the conditions on Earth are conditions in the Federation. Until you actually show some evidence otherwise, there's no reason to assume otherwise. Trolling peice of shit.

Fine, point taken. I thought the obvious was obvious that the Federation couldn't enforce its rule on member planets, apparently not. Don't worry SirNitram, if I was a troll I would have quit a long time ago. Right now my fucking brother is pestering me, I will be back later.

Off the top of my head, banana phasers, no dedicated ground army, a policy of humanitarian aid eg they can't glass planets is enough for me, apparently not for you. Fine, I will be more exact and bust out my TNG and DS9 scripts and find the instances of Federation incompetence.

Brian

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2004-12-17 02:16pm

brianeyci wrote:Also, there may be people out there that do not want to live a life of capitalism. Maybe someone out there wants to be an emotionless freak, or maybe there's someone who wants to focus on intellectual pursuits. You could do this in the Empire, but in the Federation you would be free of any burden of providing for yourself since the Federation provides at the very least basic essentials for every citizen.

brianeyci wrote: It is not a rare example. For example anyone who works a minimum wage job, who wants to be freed from work. No work at all. A lot of people would take that, having bare essentials and working when you want to go to the holodeck. There are a lot of people who would want to be freed from the cycle of paycheque, spend, paycheque, spend.

brianeyci wrote: There exactly is the problem. "Better" is a very subjective thing. I say that "better" for many people would mean being freed from having to live a life of buying, earning, buying, earning, and have your government provide for you. That is hard probably for you to see, since you probably earn quite enough money to support yourself, but there would be many who would give up earning money for a holodeck and a government paycheque. Hence, the Federation would be better for many people.

Are you arguing that communism is actually better than free market? And are you suggesting that EVERY Federation Citizen is government employee? How inefficient that system would be? You seem to completely forget what happened to USSR, do you?

Do you really believe that most people actually work without expecting reward in return? Here's a hint: one of basic human's trait in laziness, thus they need something to **motivate** them to work (read: contributes to the economic system; gaining recources, producing goods, etc). The more contribution they generate, (ideally) the more money they acquire, thus more spending freedom. Even University Professor need paycheck.

Do you really believe that people can be freed from work??? Work is necesity, to generate resources we're consuming in our everyday life. Granted that everyone want to be freed from work, but without work, how would resources be provided?

Your claim that people in Federation is freed from any burden of "providing for themselves" (I can make comments about masturbation on this one but save it for later), since Federation provides such things for every citizen, but tell me, how would the Federation acquire resources to provides those needs without people working for it???

I see that your delusional dreams about "better life in Federation" clearly demonstrates that you don't understand even the basic of economy.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2004-12-17 02:24pm

brianeyci wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Federation has ground forces. 'Siege Of AR-something' in DS9.
Naval personnel pressed into ground roles? They even have the same uniform and carry the same banana phasers. There's no evidence that the Federation has a dedicated ground army. They were beaming down crew from ships in Paradise Lost, not deploying from ground bases.

Doesn't need to be dedicated, you moron. Not to fufil the asinine, self contradictory bullshit you claimed was impossible. It's canon that a few hundred can take over a world in the modern Trek universe. Redemption.

Why? You're just giving them resources for no benefit. No one is going to do that, you flaming retard.
Because if you don't, you don't get the special medicine that cures kidney dialysis, or replicators, or transporters, or protection from Klingons.

How about you go back and actually prove they don't enforce anything, you trolling peice of dogshit.

The Federation is a government on Earth, but it can't be the government of 150 planets because it has no teeth. You pay money to them and they give you tech and a defense. It provides the world with technology and defense from Borg, Klingons, etc.
Again, prove it. You keep claiming all this bullshit, so why don't you stick your money where you mouth is and prove the Federation has no influence on it's member worlds. Until then, your arguments hold no water.

Living in the Federation doesn't have to involve living on Earth.

Brian
No, but the conditions on Earth are conditions in the Federation. Until you actually show some evidence otherwise, there's no reason to assume otherwise. Trolling peice of shit.
Fine, point taken. I thought the obvious was obvious that the Federation couldn't enforce its rule on member planets, apparently not. Don't worry SirNitram, if I was a troll I would have quit a long time ago. Right now my fucking brother is pestering me, I will be back later.

Of course it can enforce it's rule, you pathetic excuse for a trektard. What do you think a photon torpedo is, a firecracker? I don't give a shit about your brother or any other real life commitments. You are trolling in this debate by your rampant refusal to even attempt to argue logically. Come back when you can prove any of the shit you've made up.

Off the top of my head, banana phasers, no dedicated ground army, a policy of humanitarian aid eg they can't glass planets is enough for me, apparently not for you. Fine, I will be more exact and bust out my TNG and DS9 scripts and find the instances of Federation incompetence.

Brian

Wow, you talk out of your ass so much it's pathetic. The Federation has an order for completely obliterating civilizations on the surface(General Order 24: Nuke every city and farm and suchlike). You still haven't proven they enforce nothing(You just asspull reasons why you think they can't.), and you just yap your mouth on and on. Come back when you learn to debate, pigfucker.

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman · Post by **Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman** » 2004-12-17 02:52pm

In shorts, brian, you claimed that living in the Federation is better than in the Empire based on these reason:

1. You claimed that living in the Empire is bad due to "a capitalist system and therefore people motivated by profit, and a "Corporate Sector" focused on profits", not to mention that counterfeiting and hacking would make it more *dangerous* to live in the Empire. Well hello? It's basically the world we live today, fucktard. Now please explain why it'll be more dangerous to live in the Empire.

2. You claimed that the Federation is better because the people would be freed from work, since the Federation would provide at least the basic essentials for *every* citizen. **Bzzzz** WRONG. People need to work for gaining resources and producing goods they're consuming in their lives, and they need INCENTIVES to do their job. Without incentives, human's laziness will rear its ugly head, and next you can expect scarcity of resources and goods (hence the long queue in front of stores in typical communist country; you can buy everything, too bad everything's just "out of stock").

The only condition when people would work without rewards is when they're either forced or brainwashed. If you really believe that such kind of live is BETTER than our live in the world today, then I'm sorry that most population disagree with you. Otherwise we'd all be living in Lenin's dream today.

So don't blame me if I get the impression that you're either a commie, or you need a fucking reality check. But don't worry about the latter, in the place where I've been staying, there's a lot of therapist who would be happy to see you...

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Federation post conquest

Federation post conquest

They might be a little richer, not sure but

Re: They might be a little richer, not sure but