Realistic ISD vs. GCS Scenario.

BrandonBray · Post by **BrandonBray** » 2004-12-20 06:49pm

Realistic Imperial Star Destroyer vs. Galaxy class Starship Scenario

Borrowing from Mike's fan-fiction and drawn in direct relation to the aforementioned debate playing out at:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/

This debate places our combatants in a logical, realistic combat situation. So read the setting, weigh the facts and let the battle of words begin.

LOCATION:

1. Federation Territory, Camblis system:
Solar system consists of seven planets, two of which are gas giants. Star is a medium sized yellow star almost identical to Earth's and, as such, there is no special radiation, magnetic fields or bogus subspace fields with which to concern ourselves with. Camblis' second planet is an M class world with no moons and is almost identical to Earth. Again there are no special radiation, gravitational forces, etc. Camblis II will be the setting for our battle.

(NOTE: This battle takes place at a point when the Federation and Empire are already at war. Fans can choose to place this in the context of Mike Wong's fan-fic if they wish, but they don’t have to.)

OPPONENTS:

Federation vs. Empire:
___ a. Imperial class Star Destroyer, Mk. 1 variant seen in ANH.
_____Designation - ISD Furious.
___ b. Galaxy class Starship, original build variant as seen in TNG.
_____Designation - USS Challenger.

TARGET(s):

Federation research outpost on Camblis II.
Federation scientists fleeing Camblis II aboard 20 assorted small vessels.
Hostile enemy vessel located in the area.

ORDERS:

1. IMPERIAL

message: Imperial Command
to: ISD Furious
command: Captain Pallance, Rull
priority: 2/10
orders: Intelligent reports suggest there is a Federation outpost in the Camblis solar system, Imperial target designation 000319. We believe that this planet has a small colony of little strategic importance. Proceed to target zone and secure the system's only habitable world (see attached file for details) and secure colonists. Allow the colony to hail enemy forces for assistance as to facilitate our efforts to splinter Federation forces and weaken their defense of other more strategically valuable targets.
Transmission End
Imperial EG Central Command

2. FEDERATION

message: Starfleet Command
to: USS Challenger
command: Captain Pike, Jonathan
priority: Alpha One
orders: A Federation colony in the Camblis system must be evacuated immediately. This system, once thought to be secure, is now on the front lines of our war with the Empire. Home to a Federation "think-tank" whose research includes the development and improvement of Federation shield technology, Camblis' is an invaluable asset that must not fall into enemy hands. You are ordered to proceed to the Camblis system (warp 5 limit suspended until further notice) and evacuate the colonists and destroy all
records. DO NOT let the scientists come to harm or fall into enemy hands.
Transmission End
Starfleet Command

SETTING:

The Furious has hyper-jumped into orbit of Camblis II and per their instructions have proceeded to invade the planet and seize the colony. Twenty craft, carrying the Federation scientists shoot their way past Imperial forces and break into open space. In response to the escaping vessels the Furious has launched TIE squadrons to intercept and capture/destroy the colony ships (none of which are warp capable), and provide strategic air support for the ground assault taking place on the planet, leaving her with only one wing of TIE Fighters for cover. Furious is not aware that they have an opportunity to capture the Federation scientists and, consequentially, perhaps find a way to completely circumvent Federation shield technology.

Twenty minutes later the USS Challenger drops out of high warp, into orbit of Camblis II opposite of the fleeing colony ships with the Furious BETWEEN her and the besieged convoy of Federation scientists. Unaware that the Furious' captain does not know how valuable a target the fleeing scientists are, the captain of USS Challenger assumes the worst and prepares to fight his way past the Furious and save the scientists.

NOTES:

Transports carrying the scientists are well outside the weapons range and transporter range for both the USS Challenger and ISD Furious.
Transports are being crippled and will eventually be destroyed by the attacking TIE fighters.
TIE fighter reinforcements for the Furious are ten minutes away, as they are engaged with Federation shuttles and surface batteries.
Federation reinforcements are not available for the USS Challenger from the surface, as they are engaged with AT-ATs, and attacking TIE fighters and the closest Federation starship is seven hours away.
Orbital defenses have been destroyed and are not available for use by any Federation forces.
Both the ISD Furious and USS Challenger are within the gravity well of Camblis II and neither vessel can claim an advantage by being outside this influence.
USS Challenger IS armed with Quantum torpedoes which is, after all, logical given that the Federation has just been at war with the Dominion and this weapon is really just a missile and requires no special retrofitting to fire this weapon on behalf of Federation forces.
ISD Furious took NO damage from the Camblis defense satellites as they were taken out by TIE Bombers so both Federation and Imperial vessels have full shield power.

There you, a rational tactical scenario that fits the needs of both parties. Obviously the USS Challenger must get past the ISD Furious and the ISD Furious is certainly not going to let that happen. So... what do YOU think would happen and how do you think this battle would unfold?

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba · Post by **Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba** » 2004-12-20 07:06pm

A single shot from an ISD would blow the GCS to bits. Its only possible chance is to make a micro-warp jump to the scientist ships, and attempt to beam them into itself, and then escape without being hit by a Turbolaser. Hopefully, the Picard maneuver could be used to divert enemy fire for a moment.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2004-12-20 07:50pm

The Furious has hyper-jumped into orbit of Camblis II and per their instructions have proceeded to invade the planet and seize the colony. Twenty craft, carrying the Federation scientists shoot their way past Imperial forces and break into open space. In response to the escaping vessels the Furious has launched TIE squadrons to intercept and capture/destroy the colony ships (none of which are warp capable), and provide strategic air support for the ground assault taking place on the planet, leaving her with only one wing of TIE Fighters for cover. Furious is not aware that they have an opportunity to capture the Federation scientists and, consequentially, perhaps find a way to completely circumvent Federation shield technology.

Twenty minutes later the USS Challenger drops out of high warp, into orbit of Camblis II opposite of the fleeing colony ships with the Furious BETWEEN her and the besieged convoy of Federation scientists. Unaware that the Furious' captain does not know how valuable a target the fleeing scientists are, the captain of USS Challenger assumes the worst and prepares to fight his way past the Furious and save the scientists.

First of all, why is it going to take 20 minutes for TIE fighters to run sublight shuttles to ground? By the time the GCS arrives, the shuttles would be space dust.

Post by **Kuja** » 2004-12-21 01:10am

Furious is not aware that they have an opportunity to capture the Federation scientists and, consequentially, perhaps find a way to completely circumvent Federation shield technology.

Why bother trying to circumvent a shield you can knock down with a couple of shots?

That said, the Challenger is shattered, the shuttles are captured/destroyed, and the colony is taken. Complete victory for the Empire.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2004-12-21 01:46am

A single 200 gigaton heavy turbolaser blast will annihalate the Galaxy. This is going to be a ridiculasly easy victory for the Empire.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-21 02:58am

Seems to me that TL's don't make massive explosions, rather concentrating the blast over a smaller area (case in point- 200 GT turbolaser hits a 100 meter asteroid, and instead of a massive explosion that nukes everything on the screen it completely vapes the asteroid. 200 GT A nuke would have just made a huge explosion fragmenting hundreds of asteroids instead of vaporizing the one).

I'd say that the first TL shot takes down the Galaxy's shields and bleeds through and does serious damage, and each one after that vaporizes 100 meter diameter chunks of the hull (100 meter MINIMUM, I should say). 6 shots MAXIMUM to completely vaporize (VAPE, not fragment) the vessel, but a single TL shot that hits in the engineering section should destroy the whole ship.

Kazuaki Shimazaki · Post by **Kazuaki Shimazaki** » 2004-12-21 04:22am

Praxis wrote:I'd say that the first TL shot takes down the Galaxy's shields and bleeds through and does serious damage, and each one after that vaporizes 100 meter diameter chunks of the hull (100 meter MINIMUM, I should say). 6 shots MAXIMUM to completely vaporize (VAPE, not fragment) the vessel, but a single TL shot that hits in the engineering section should destroy the whole ship.

Are you basically saying the sheer power of the Imperial beam might ironically save the Galaxy from one shot destruction, because it penetrated the entire hull so quickly there was no time to transmit enough energy to the Galaxy hull to utterly destroy it?

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2004-12-21 08:13am

IIRC the 200 Gt is for Acclamator's MTL's not HTL's, so 20 year old transport would assrape a GCS so badly that it would be felt even in Starfleet Command.

Admiral Bravo · Post by **Admiral Bravo** » 2004-12-21 01:54pm

This has been done so many fucking times and it comes out the same. A Star Destroyer would just have to fire off a few turbolaser blasts to destroy the Galaxy. The Picard maneuver wouldn't help as it relies on being able to destroy a starship instantly by firing all their weapons aflter they make a micro warp jump and come out at point blank range. If the GCS tried this, assuming they could because of the gravity well preventing them from using warp, the Star Destroyer would be able to srug off the volley of phaser and torpedo fire and either vaporise the GCS or crash with it.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-21 03:12pm

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Praxis wrote:I'd say that the first TL shot takes down the Galaxy's shields and bleeds through and does serious damage, and each one after that vaporizes 100 meter diameter chunks of the hull (100 meter MINIMUM, I should say). 6 shots MAXIMUM to completely vaporize (VAPE, not fragment) the vessel, but a single TL shot that hits in the engineering section should destroy the whole ship.
Are you basically saying the sheer power of the Imperial beam might ironically save the Galaxy from one shot destruction, because it penetrated the entire hull so quickly there was no time to transmit enough energy to the Galaxy hull to utterly destroy it?

Exactly

BrandonBray · Post by **BrandonBray** » 2004-12-21 05:06pm

Actually, because we do know that the ISD will win in a head-to-head slug-fest, I thought that it might be more interesting to theorize the tactics the GCS could use to accomplish their mission, and how the ISD would deal with those attempts.

Oh, and the reason the TIE's cannot join the fight, is because they're engaged with planetary defenses.

I mean, we always slam Trek, because we know that Star Wars beats Trek. On the other hand, it is always fun to play devil's advocate.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-21 05:07pm

Praxis wrote:
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Praxis wrote:I'd say that the first TL shot takes down the Galaxy's shields and bleeds through and does serious damage, and each one after that vaporizes 100 meter diameter chunks of the hull (100 meter MINIMUM, I should say). 6 shots MAXIMUM to completely vaporize (VAPE, not fragment) the vessel, but a single TL shot that hits in the engineering section should destroy the whole ship.
Are you basically saying the sheer power of the Imperial beam might ironically save the Galaxy from one shot destruction, because it penetrated the entire hull so quickly there was no time to transmit enough energy to the Galaxy hull to utterly destroy it?
Exactly

Then explain the asteroid scene. There lies in the rub.

Spiritbw · Post by **Spiritbw** » 2004-12-21 05:13pm

Praxis wrote:
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:
Praxis wrote:I'd say that the first TL shot takes down the Galaxy's shields and bleeds through and does serious damage, and each one after that vaporizes 100 meter diameter chunks of the hull (100 meter MINIMUM, I should say). 6 shots MAXIMUM to completely vaporize (VAPE, not fragment) the vessel, but a single TL shot that hits in the engineering section should destroy the whole ship.
Are you basically saying the sheer power of the Imperial beam might ironically save the Galaxy from one shot destruction, because it penetrated the entire hull so quickly there was no time to transmit enough energy to the Galaxy hull to utterly destroy it?
Exactly

If it was a solid round like a AP round I could see that. However a TL is a form of energy weapon. When it hit it would be more likly the energy would be transfered in all directions instead of straight ahead.

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2004-12-21 05:18pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Then explain the asteroid scene. There lies in the rub.

The density of a nickel-iron asteroid is about 100 times that of a GCS because the GCS has a largely hollow interior. Thus, the coupling can be much stronger</wild effort at rationalization>

Gunhead · Post by **Gunhead** » 2004-12-21 05:19pm

Then explain the asteroid scene. There lies in the rub.

Wouldn't be possible they used a wide beam against the asteroid to vaporize it, rather than pierce it. We know the visible part isn't the whole beam, and that blaster have variable power settings. Couldn't the gunner control beam dispersal? Against shields and armor you'd want to concentrate maximum power to one spot and make a hole deep enough to do damage.

-Gunhead

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba · Post by **Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba** » 2004-12-21 06:18pm

I recommended that they used the Picard Manuever to micro-jump past the ISD and beam up the scientists, not try to fight.

Big Phil · Post by **Big Phil** » 2004-12-21 06:22pm

So BrandBray, your question is not "Would a GCS defeat an ISD?" Your question is, "Could a GCS accomplish this mission with and ISD opposing it?"

I think my answer, is possibly, but it would require split second timing and a highly trained crew who follows orders without hesitation. I don't know that we've ever seen that on TNG, DS9, Voyager. We see a lot of discussion, arguing on the bridge, etc., which would probably result in one dead GCS.

IF a GCS could keep from getting hit by the ISD or the TIE Fighters, it could accomplish the mission, but we've never seen this sort of precision warp to impulse transition before, so I don't see any reason why we would expect it now.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-12-21 06:23pm

Admiral Bravo wrote:This has been done so many fucking times and it comes out the same. A Star Destroyer would just have to fire off a few turbolaser blasts to destroy the Galaxy. The Picard maneuver wouldn't help as it relies on being able to destroy a starship instantly by firing all their weapons aflter they make a micro warp jump and come out at point blank range. If the GCS tried this, assuming they could because of the gravity well preventing them from using warp, the Star Destroyer would be able to srug off the volley of phaser and torpedo fire and either vaporise the GCS or crash with it.

nitpick: warp isn't the same thing as hyperdrive. thus gravity wells wouldn't stop them from using it.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-21 06:44pm

Ghost Rider wrote:
Praxis wrote:
Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote: Are you basically saying the sheer power of the Imperial beam might ironically save the Galaxy from one shot destruction, because it penetrated the entire hull so quickly there was no time to transmit enough energy to the Galaxy hull to utterly destroy it?
Exactly
Then explain the asteroid scene. There lies in the rub.

Maybe I misexplained it, OR misread Kazuaki's statement.

When a TL strikes an object (example: TESB asteroid) it directly heats what it hits and vaporizes it. The energy is much more concentrated than, say, a photon torpedo. If you hit a smaller asteroid with a photon torpedo, you won't see the same effect- instead of the (smaller) asteroid being vaporized, the photon torpedo will make a very large explosion many times bigger than the asteroid. The energy release from a TL always seems much more concentrated, while a photon torp is more nuke-like.

Now, someone above stated that an asteroid is a lot more dense than the GCS. Assuming the GCS doesn't have a lot of ultradense armor (I'm fairly certain the hull isn't that thick), then thinking it over, the TL would probably vape a lot more than just a 100 meter section.

BrandonBray · Post by **BrandonBray** » 2004-12-22 01:02am

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba wrote:I recommended that they used the Picard Manuever to micro-jump past the ISD and beam up the scientists, not try to fight.

Unfortunately Sanchez, with both ships in the graviy well of the planet, I do not think that a warp micro-jump would work.

nitpick: warp isn't the same thing as hyperdrive. thus gravity wells wouldn't stop them from using it.

But Zod, we know that going to warp whithin a solar system is very dangerous. The first movie established this and episodes of STNG and DS9 support this idea. Kinda' like what we saw in "The Survivors" where E-D is forced to retreat as quickly as she can, but she does not go to warp, rather she turns and leaves orbit at impulse power.

I just don't see a mini-jump to warp working here, with both ships trapped in the planet's gravity well.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2004-12-22 01:36am

BrandonBray wrote:
But Zod, we know that going to warp whithin a solar system is very dangerous. The first movie established this and episodes of STNG and DS9 support this idea. Kinda' like what we saw in "The Survivors" where E-D is forced to retreat as quickly as she can, but she does not go to warp, rather she turns and leaves orbit at impulse power.

I just don't see a mini-jump to warp working here, with both ships trapped in the planet's gravity well.

The gravity well of a planet has no effect on warp drive. Thus, it would be possible to come up with a micro-jump warp using waypoints. However, is the crew capable of doing this?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-12-22 04:05pm

BrandonBray wrote: But Zod, we know that going to warp whithin a solar system is very dangerous. The first movie established this and episodes of STNG and DS9 support this idea. Kinda' like what we saw in "The Survivors" where E-D is forced to retreat as quickly as she can, but she does not go to warp, rather she turns and leaves orbit at impulse power.

I just don't see a mini-jump to warp working here, with both ships trapped in the planet's gravity well.

star trek first contact clearly disproves the notion that going to warp in a solar system is not dangerous, as cochrane does so within earth orbit. i certainly don't ever recall hearing any canon dialog stating that gravity wells turned off warp drives or otherwise disabled them. iirc in one episode they were using warp to escape from a black hole or some similar super gravity object, but the best they could do was stay above its event horizon. the engines worked fine.

BrandonBray · Post by **BrandonBray** » 2004-12-22 05:22pm

Good points. However, it did appear that both Cochrane had to get some distance from earth before he engaged his warp drive.

Maybe their is a proximity factor to take into consideration, which would explain the difference between going to warp in orbit only 300 to 500 miles, and being in a high orbit of a couple thousand miles, as seen with Cochrane, and recently with the Prequal Enterprise leaving space dock.

Then again, it might be entirely possible to make a micro-jump.

But, upon reviewing content from the "Thoughts on Treknology" thread, there is one thing we have not factored in... jamming.

It is logical that the ISD would be jamming sensors and communications, which might make it difficult for the GCS to find their targets.

Thoughts?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-12-22 05:40pm

BrandonBray wrote:Good points. However, it did appear that both Cochrane had to get some distance from earth before he engaged his warp drive.

Maybe their is a proximity factor to take into consideration, which would explain the difference between going to warp in orbit only 300 to 500 miles, and being in a high orbit of a couple thousand miles, as seen with Cochrane, and recently with the Prequal Enterprise leaving space dock.

Then again, it might be entirely possible to make a micro-jump.

But, upon reviewing content from the "Thoughts on Treknology" thread, there is one thing we have not factored in... jamming.

It is logical that the ISD would be jamming sensors and communications, which might make it difficult for the GCS to find their targets.

Thoughts?

again, either point to canon evidence that gravity has serious effects on warp drive or you have no solid point.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » 2004-12-22 05:57pm

Isn't there an instance in canon of a starship going into warp while in a planet's atmosphere, or am I daydreaming bullshit again?