Combat Massacre

Terr Fangbite · Post by **Terr Fangbite** » 2004-12-22 09:57pm

The question I come up with is which group in the above poll would be most easily slaughtered by an equal number of star wars clone troopers. Note, each group can use any tool or equipment (no air support though) seen in the movies or shows. The fighting ground is a level open space.

I vote the borg. Come on now, their shields will do jack against raw power, and their speed will give the clone troopers an easy picking even if they sit on their guns until the borg come within 5 feet of them.

Vohu Manah · Post by **Vohu Manah** » 2004-12-22 11:24pm

Second the Borg vote, the others have at least some (vague or otherwise) concept of strategy and tactics.

Post by **Kuja** » 2004-12-22 11:35pm

At least Klingons run at their opponents.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-23 12:25am

Okay, let's consider.

The Borg will slowly march, getting shot the whole way. They have no cover, move slower than a slug, and have no ranged weaponry. They get SLAUGHTERED, unless they at some point adapt (like the Borg cut off from the collective with Lore did) and develop weapons. They still get slaughtered, however, since their weapons SUCKED.

Ewoks get slaughtered, but not as bad. Equal numbers and no cover, they don't stand a chance, BUT they're smaller and faster and harder to hit than a Borg.

Klingons run with Bat'leths and get slaughtered, but some are smart enough to shoot with guns, so they cause SOME casualties.

Redshirts cause some casualties, but still get wiped out cleanly.

Gungans get murdered, since their 'ranged' weaponry are the equivilant of a slingshot.

USA army dies, but they do better than the others because:
A) Actual tactics.
B) Unlike the Gungans, Borg, Klingons, and Redshirts, THEY HAVE VEHICLES AND ARTILLERY. A tank will STILL die, but it can at least take out a few clonetroopers in one blast. Mortars work well too.

Droid army does best.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-23 12:26am

I can't wait to see how Walper finds a way to support the Borg, btw

Lord of the Farce · Post by **Lord of the Farce** » 2004-12-23 01:54am

Praxis wrote:Gungans get murdered, since their 'ranged' weaponry are the equivilant of a slingshot.

Sure, they don't really have any weapon with which to hurt the Clone Troopers, but the Gungans are also the only one on the list to use mobile shield generators, and personal shields units which might last against Clone Trooper weaponry.

Besides, I seriously doubt that the only weapons the Gungans can field are anti-droid. Also, we don't know what kind of effects those Gungan orbs might have on a Clone Trooper's gear.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2004-12-23 02:37am

Praxis wrote:I can't wait to see how Walper finds a way to support the Borg, btw

No, I agree the Borg drones would in all likelyhood be slaughtered very badly. There are potential known variables that could improve their chances. We've seen drones with wrist mounted weapons, they are capable of moving fast, and tactical drones do possess titanium composite armor, potential adaptation, etc. But I believe we can safely assume the OP is referencing drones like the ones seen in ST:FC.

Borg drones (at least the ones we typically see) are not designed as a military ground force, so it's not surprising they fail as such. This is like taking a hummer vehicle, tossing in the ocean to see how well it performs as a submarine. Of course it fails, and comments "the hummer sucks!!!" are out of context and stupid in themselves. The hummer wasn't designed as a submarine. (duh)

And like I stated, Borg drones we typically see are not designed as a military ground forces. The entire Borg Collective is in fact not a military organization, although it obviously possesses some capabilities in that area.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-23 08:49am

There may be a way for the Borg to be more even.

Business as... wrote: QUARK
The Breen CRM-one-fourteen works
equally well against moving
vessels or surface emplacements.
It's guaranteed to cut through
reactive armor in the six-to-
fifteen centimeter range, and
shields up to four-point-six
gigajoules.

Now, show that Borg have assimilated Breen somehow, or Breen weapons firing at Borg drones, and we have Borg drone shields that can deflect firepower in the gigajoule range. No easy task I know, probably impossible, unless it shows up in Voyager with that episode with a lot of free drones.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-23 08:57am

Actually to be conclusive you would actually need to see a Breen Disruptor Rifle being fired on a drone, and the drone's shields resisting its fire. Even if we saw assimilated Breen, the collective could have assimilated unarmed Breen or stupid Breen.

Brian

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2004-12-23 09:15am

The Borg.

They have less tactical capability then my cat does. Personally it says a lot that they can conquer being given apparently everyone in Trek has abandoned any weapons of a kinetic nature and somehow submit to a race who slowly meanders toward you.

Even with the thought they are cultivating races to improve tech for them...both sides are amazingly pathetic since apparently the thought of making weapons that aren't frequency based have apparently escaped hundreds of races...except those from a liquid like dimension.

Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba · Post by **Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba** » 2004-12-23 09:52am

At least the Klingons move faster than molasses on a slope.

The Borg are practically made of stupid.

Off-Topic: Actually, if you think about it, cats use pretty good tactics when hunting small animals. Too bad they're too powerful to be assimilated.

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2004-12-23 10:19am

I had to vote for the Borg getting slaughtered, since they're the only ones on that list whose asses I could kick*. And that's including the Ewoks: I'm not fucking with midgets who are both A) strong enough to lift 30 pound rocks over their heads and B) are just the right height to use my nutsack as a punching bag.

-- Joe Momma

*Protip for guys who live in a cluttered industrial environment -- don't walk around with vital wiring hanging off of your freakin' head. There are entire industrial safety films dedicated solely to discouraging that sort of idiocy.

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-23 01:26pm

Ghost Rider wrote:The Borg.

They have less tactical capability then my cat does. Personally it says a lot that they can conquer being given apparently everyone in Trek has abandoned any weapons of a kinetic nature and somehow submit to a race who slowly meanders toward you.

Even with the thought they are cultivating races to improve tech for them...both sides are amazingly pathetic since apparently the thought of making weapons that aren't frequency based have apparently escaped hundreds of races...except those from a liquid like dimension.

Have you ever watched two cats fight? They have a very keen sense of tactics, actually. More so than the Klingons on Star Trek

I've seen cats doing fients, exposing a weak spot to lure the other cat near then flipping around to attack with all fours, etc.

Seriously, my cat DOES have a better grasp of tactics than most Star Trek races (Klingons, Borg, etc. Cardassians, no, though.)!

Fleet Admiral Blair · Post by **Fleet Admiral Blair** » 2004-12-25 01:52am

Why is everyone badmouthing the Borg? Sure they've no tactical skill, but Redshirts are DESTINED TO DIE

Vohu Manah · Post by **Vohu Manah** » 2004-12-25 02:02am

At least the redshirts try their best, that has to count for something.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-25 09:49am

Redshirts have hidden behind rocks, are physically fit, have tricorders and if we are talking about TOS era redshirts don't have banana phasers and if there's a large enough amount of redshirts they might have photon grenades. They obviously don't die as easily as Borg. The Borg's only saving grace is if they are able to "adapt" or shield themselves against stormies, or perhaps if the Borg use tactical drones with body armor. Its not like the Borg win through skill or tactics, they use pure attrition. Even Redshirts versus Borg would be hard to tell the winner, cause I'm hesitant to say TOS phasers have the same weaknesses as TNG phasers and photon grenades would probably be able to take out Borg.

Brian

Terr Fangbite · Post by **Terr Fangbite** » 2004-12-25 09:52am

I'm surprised the jem hedar got so few votes. Their battle tactics are only marginally better than klingons (i.e. they keep their guns when they charge howling like vikings). Redshirts however have enough sense to try and use their surroundings for protection (not that there really is any) and I would think they'd survive better than people who run in screaming "Look, I have a sword and I'm charging across a field towards you, KILL ME!"

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-25 10:17am

Jem'Hadar have personal cloaking devices. Its hard to see them unless you're looking for the shimmer. They had several holographic training exercises against Jem'Hadar troops in DS9 and every time Jem'Hadar got pretty close before they decloaked or their shimmer was visible. They don't charge like morons like Klingons, they only charge when they can ambush. Also Jem'Hadar kill people without character shields pretty well. They're also genetically engineered to enjoy fighting to the point that they set up a fighting ring and let Worf beat up on them to earn his freedom.

Jem'Hadar are glorified ship's crew. Their bridges are spartan with only the "First" being able to see outside using an eyepiece. They are also fanatically loyal, as much as stormtroopers or even more because we've seen Jem'Hadar kill themselves when they fail.

Brian

Post by **NecronLord** » 2004-12-25 11:19am

brianeyci wrote:Even Redshirts versus Borg would be hard to tell the winner, cause I'm hesitant to say TOS phasers have the same weaknesses as TNG phasers and photon grenades would probably be able to take out Borg.

Brian

Can they bust out Sulu's firearms cache?

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-25 01:58pm

brianeyci wrote: The Borg's only saving grace is if they are able to "adapt" or shield themselves against stormies, or perhaps if the Borg use tactical drones with body armor. Its not like the Borg win through skill or tactics, they use pure attrition. Even Redshirts versus Borg would be hard to tell the winner, cause I'm hesitant to say TOS phasers have the same weaknesses as TNG phasers and photon grenades would probably be able to take out Borg.

Haven't we discussed to death that the Borg most likely won't be able to adapt to blasters???

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-25 02:02pm

brianeyci wrote:Jem'Hadar have personal cloaking devices. Its hard to see them unless you're looking for the shimmer. They had several holographic training exercises against Jem'Hadar troops in DS9 and every time Jem'Hadar got pretty close before they decloaked or their shimmer was visible. They don't charge like morons like Klingons, they only charge when they can ambush. Also Jem'Hadar kill people without character shields pretty well. They're also genetically engineered to enjoy fighting to the point that they set up a fighting ring and let Worf beat up on them to earn his freedom.

Jem'Hadar are glorified ship's crew. Their bridges are spartan with only the "First" being able to see outside using an eyepiece. They are also fanatically loyal, as much as stormtroopers or even more because we've seen Jem'Hadar kill themselves when they fail.

Brian

Dude, have you watched the Seige of AR-559? The Jem Hadar have NEVER been seen to use their cloaks during battle, only during sneaking. I suspect that perhaps they can't shoot with the cloak or something.

Furthermore, they DO charge like morons. Their assualt was so pitiful that if the Federation had a few marines with a machine gun they would have wiped them out. They charged like morons, SCREAMING the whole way so everyone knew they were coming, straight through a choke point where they'd take the most casualties, and got wiped out by a third their number in redshirts.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-25 04:56pm

Praxis wrote:Dude, have you watched the Seige of AR-559? The Jem Hadar have NEVER been seen to use their cloaks during battle, only during sneaking. I suspect that perhaps they can't shoot with the cloak or something.

Incorrect, I distinctly remember a couple of episodes where they use the cloak for ambush. They probably can't shoot with the cloak, but they probably didn't use it in AR-559 because they would be going through a narrow hallway anyway so it would be useless because it would be easy to see the shimmer. They have used it to ambush people out of trees and such.

Furthermore, they DO charge like morons. Their assualt was so pitiful that if the Federation had a few marines with a machine gun they would have wiped them out. They charged like morons, SCREAMING the whole way so everyone knew they were coming, straight through a choke point where they'd take the most casualties, and got wiped out by a third their number in redshirts.

Exactly. The Jem'Hadar knew the Feds had no heavy weapons, and they were screaming using shock tactics because they thought the Feds were demoralized. Little did they know that Sisko and co. was there to back them up. The Feds only had less than ten guys there, charging through the door should have worked if it wasn't for the fucking mines that killed a lot of the Jem'Hadar (if you remember they hacked the Jem'Hadar mines). So there may have only been 10 of them left, and rather than go back in defeat to their Founder masters they decided to make one last ditch screaming charge at the Feds.

Put it another way. If the Jem'Hadar wanted to charge, why didn't they just charge for the months and months they had? They didn't, they sat back and waited for the mines to do their job. They are a step above Klingons.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-12-25 04:59pm

Praxis wrote:Haven't we discussed to death that the Borg most likely won't be able to adapt to blasters???

Yes. But the question is not exactly closed yet. We have not seen heavy firepower used against the Borg. If we ever see Borg adapting to the Breen CRM-114, the question will be closed (see my hypothesis above).

Brian

Praxis · Post by **Praxis** » 2004-12-25 07:01pm

brianeyci wrote:
Praxis wrote:Dude, have you watched the Seige of AR-559? The Jem Hadar have NEVER been seen to use their cloaks during battle, only during sneaking. I suspect that perhaps they can't shoot with the cloak or something.
Incorrect, I distinctly remember a couple of episodes where they use the cloak for ambush. They probably can't shoot with the cloak, but they probably didn't use it in AR-559 because they would be going through a narrow hallway anyway so it would be useless because it would be easy to see the shimmer. They have used it to ambush people out of trees and such.

EXACTLY my point. We've seen them use it for ambush, but NEVER in a battle. Ever.

Furthermore, they DO charge like morons. Their assualt was so pitiful that if the Federation had a few marines with a machine gun they would have wiped them out. They charged like morons, SCREAMING the whole way so everyone knew they were coming, straight through a choke point where they'd take the most casualties, and got wiped out by a third their number in redshirts.
Exactly. The Jem'Hadar knew the Feds had no heavy weapons, and they were screaming using shock tactics because they thought the Feds were demoralized. Little did they know that Sisko and co. was there to back them up. The Feds only had less than ten guys there, charging through the door should have worked if it wasn't for the fucking mines that killed a lot of the Jem'Hadar (if you remember they hacked the Jem'Hadar mines). So there may have only been 10 of them left, and rather than go back in defeat to their Founder masters they decided to make one last ditch screaming charge at the Feds.

Put it another way. If the Jem'Hadar wanted to charge, why didn't they just charge for the months and months they had? They didn't, they sat back and waited for the mines to do their job. They are a step above Klingons.

Brian

No they didn't. The Jem Hadar that charged were the ones that had just beamed down to the planet from the NEW Jem Hadar ship. The feds said the Jem Hadar had been charging pratically every other day.

And the feds, ten people? They had a hundred and fifty.

Tribun · Post by **Tribun** » 2004-12-25 08:25pm

The Borg would be undoubtly the easiest.

I would be like Doom, with the KI turned off, and then running around with the shotgun.

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