Sith Lord rises to power over... the Federation?

[Sothis]

Lets suppose for a moment that Darth Sidious finds himself transplanted to the Federation, as the representative of a relatively minor colony. In this new and unfamilar setting (but with his Force powers and political savvy still very much intact), how does he apply himself? Could he manipulate his way to power, given the 'peaceful' human beings of the Federation? If he did, what would he do? What would the consequences be for the Alpha Quadrant?

[Chmee]

He could call himself ..... the Squire of Gothos.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Even your average person knows the fundamentals of the technology which he uses, such as car combustion. Thus, with the fundamentals of hypermatter, turbolasers, and hyperdrive. So he could capture a ship, make it more powerful than a Borg Cube, amass a tiny fleet, conquer the Feddies, then make the Federation a major power.

[Ghost Rider]

Even your average person knows the fundamentals of the technology which he uses, such as car combustion. Thus, with the fundamentals of hypermatter, turbolasers, and hyperdrive. So he could capture a ship, make it more powerful than a Borg Cube, amass a tiny fleet, conquer the Feddies, then make the Federation a major power.

Uh...how?

Seriously he may know what Hypermatter, Hyperdrives and such technology does, but nowhere has there ever been shown he know the inner mechanics of these devices nor shown even the ability to even begin to reverse engineer them.

Also he has the problem with Federation tech wouldn't meet these standards for some time.

I mean he's a Sith Lord and politician not an engineer nor mechanic of any degree.

As for what he would do...he has it easier then he had it in the Republic...since he has the ability to fucking with minds, and no Jedi he would likely do what he did with the Republic.

[Chmee]

Even your average person knows the fundamentals of the technology which he uses, such as car combustion. Thus, with the fundamentals of hypermatter, turbolasers, and hyperdrive. So he could capture a ship, make it more powerful than a Borg Cube, amass a tiny fleet, conquer the Feddies, then make the Federation a major power.

Uh...how?

Seriously he may know what Hypermatter, Hyperdrives and such technology does, but nowhere has there ever been shown he know the inner mechanics of these devices nor shown even the ability to even begin to reverse engineer them.

Also he has the problem with Federation tech wouldn't meet these standards for some time.

I mean he's a Sith Lord and politician not an engineer nor mechanic of any degree.

As for what he would do...he has it easier then he had it in the Republic...since he has the ability to fucking with minds, and no Jedi he would likely do what he did with the Republic.

Have to agree ... it's not like the Pope automatically knows how to swap out the carburetor in the Pope-mobile. Much less stick a new nav system in the Pope-jet.

[Praxis]

Even your average person knows the fundamentals of the technology which he uses, such as car combustion. Thus, with the fundamentals of hypermatter, turbolasers, and hyperdrive. So he could capture a ship, make it more powerful than a Borg Cube, amass a tiny fleet, conquer the Feddies, then make the Federation a major power.

Er, the average person nowadays knows about combustion, therefore he'd know about hypermatter reactions?

Hypermatter is more akin to modern day nuclear reactors. Does the average person know how a nuclear reactor work? I don't think so

[Lancer]

Hypermatter is more akin to modern day nuclear reactors. Does the average person know how a nuclear reactor work? I don't think so

the average board member, sure. But even then, they would still be hard pressed to build one.

Even if the Sith Lord was a master hypermatter reactor engineer & designer before he went all darksidey, there's still the problem of reconciling it with federation tech.

[Praxis]

Hypermatter is more akin to modern day nuclear reactors. Does the average person know how a nuclear reactor work? I don't think so

the average board member, sure. But even then, they would still be hard pressed to build one.

Even if the Sith Lord was a master hypermatter reactor engineer & designer before he went all darksidey, there's still the problem of reconciling it with federation tech.

Sure, on THIS board, but most people don't

[consequences]

The Emperor is already demonstrably more powerful than a Borg Cube, unless you want to try to argue that the jedi wonder twins provided most of the power that destroyed the Eclipse.

On the plus side, the Feds just became a lot more resistant to random annoying invasions. "Oh no, a giant ancient death machine just came out of the Myass Nebula, destroyed the Fourth fleet, and is headed straight for... never mind, it just exploded."

[Enforcer Talen]

just to argue with you, all I know about cars is putting in the key.

[Elfdart]

Now I have the image of Sidious riding around on that plexiglass golf cart and waving at the crowd burned into my head.

[Bellator]

if he manages to take over the Federation, it's quite likely many people and planets would rebel. (ref: DS9's statistical probabilities & paradise lost)

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

if he manages to take over the Federation, it's quite likely many people and planets would rebel. (ref: DS9's statistical probabilities & paradise lost)

Except that the calculations in Statistical Probabilities were entirely wrong and nothing happened like what Bashir's attempts at the art of Psychohistory would have you believe.

Besides, why would he need to conquer? He can control the minds of thousands of people at once. He could shoot straight into the Fleet Admiralty/ Presidential seat and begin a campaign of militarization while draining his subjects of their lifeforce and their will to rebel.

[dragon]

Even if Sid couldn't reverse engineer the tech himself its possible that he could find a few brilliant engineers and give the basic ideas and see what they could come up with. If nothing else he most could at least use better tatics than the feddies.

[Bellator]

Besides, why would he need to conquer? He can control the minds of thousands of people at once. He could shoot straight into the Fleet Admiralty/ Presidential seat and begin a campaign of militarization while draining his subjects of their lifeforce and their will to rebel.

In the SW universe, many rebelled. Why would the AQ be any different? Especcially since it was stated that Federation citizens wouldn't stand for a military dictatorship (ref: paradise lost). He may be able to take over, but many people will rebel.

[brianeyci]

In the ST verse, midichlorines might not exist. There is no evidence that there is a great energy field binding the universe giving people supernatural powers. If there was, it would have been mentioned somewhere, somehow, and Force Adepts (people who use the force without training) would have been seen in the ST verse. So Palpatine in the ST-verse might be impotent. If we assume the "Force" does exist in the ST-verse, then the Force would want to balance itself out just like in the SW universe and create the equivalent of Anakin in the ST-verse, the guy to "bring balance to the force". After a few decades of Palpatine's rule, we might see a lightsaber fight on the bridge of a Sovereign or in Starfleet Command rather than on the Death Star

The Emperor also needs a way to enforce his edicts. In the SW verse this was the stormtroopers. What is the equivalent in the ST verse? Redshirts? There is the equivalent of a "cloning world" in ST, but that is a small colony that produced several hundreds of clones, not nearly the millions that Palpatine would need. Palpatine would probably try and do the same thing, amass a huge army in secret, but in the ST verse cloning is nowhere near as advanced and there is a problem of "replicant fading" where each successive generation of clones becomes defective.

Bellator is right, a rebellion would spring up especially on the worlds near the borders -- think of the Cardassian debacle, if the Federation came in and tried to impose their own rule of law with redshirts, colony worlds would be incensed to say the least. Also, in the Federation the Federation President doesn't have the same control as the Supreme Chancellor in the Empire. Federation Admirals would need to under the thumb of Palpatine, and Federation Admirality being so spread out as they are Palpatine would probably first have to work on getting control of one Admiral, and then slowly getting control of all the Admirals. He would have to somehow beef up the powers of the Federation President, probably under the guise of a "democratization" program.

And has the Emperor DEMONSTRATED the ability to control thousands of minds at once? In the EU or in the movies? Sure you could argue that he can blow Borg Cubes out of the sky and such, or that he can influence the minds of thousands to be sympathetic to his cause, but can he CONTROL the minds of thousands, each mind being an extension of himself? If it was a matter of him keeping his powers secret from the Jedi, then when the Jedi Council was destroyed and they all went into hiding, Palpatine should have started controlling the minds of everybody and there should have been no rebellion -- just like what you propose would happen in the Federation. But there is a rebellion in SW, and there would be in ST. Given that the Marquis were able to hold off Starfleet and Cardassia for decades with ragtag ships, the ST rebellion would be more potent than the SW rebellion. After all, you don't have 1.7 km long ships in ST to enforce your rule, and if you can build a Defiant in a nebula without a spacedock in six months in ST, well you have a problem. In DS9, the Federation was worried that the Dominion with the resources of one planet (Cardassia) would be able to amass a powerful fleet capable of destroying the whole Federation, so rather than bottle them up they attacked.

Brian

[Ace Pace]

And has the Emperor DEMONSTRATED the ability to control thousands of minds at once? In the EU or in the movies?

Brian

I belive in one of the Thrawn book that the Emperor's ability to influence minds was commented on how the Tie pilots skills suddenly dropped after he died.

[brianeyci]

I belive in one of the Thrawn book that the Emperor's ability to influence minds was commented on how the Tie pilots skills suddenly dropped after he died.

Influence is one thing, control is another (which is why I differentiated between the two in my original post). Especially if Palpatine starts doing things that are contrary to the constitution of the Federation in an obscene way, like violating the Prime Directive, giving a lot of General Order 24's, and so on. Influencing a mind doesn't mean you make the person forget their loyalties, allegiances and oaths, and if Palpatine starts blatantly using force and violating things like the Seventh Guarantee, Starfleet Captains are going to be incensed no matter how much influence the Emperor can exert.

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

Okay Brain...read the OP on regards to Force powers. It always HELPS to make sure the person in question is keeping them for debates, and usually they are kept because if we go that...should ever ST enters SW universe we take out subspace?

Onto the other points. Let's see...how he would he enforce his edicts. Let's think...he knows he has to BUILD a power base. What he's not going to try to actually and make an enemy for the Federation given they ramped up pretty quickly for war. He has little to no real opposition since he doesn't have to hide his actions because no Jedi. He just has to be shrewd to where he makes the Federation goes.

And what rebellion? Do any of you really think he's going to come marching in with a Feddie version of a DS 2? Are you really that fucking stupid to jump to a conclusion that given he never did that until he was firmly ensconed in power. This is the same as going Napoleon declaring himself the Roman Emperor without an ARMY.

And he has demonstraed in HTTE and in a variety of X-Wing novels the ability cloud millions of minds to see what he wanted to see. But he doesn't need to do that given what his real purpose to make them WILLINGLY do what he wants. Mind control is great for battles not day to day usage...though he demonstrated he could do it for extended periods if need be.

So please stop throwing out pointless examples and think of a reason why a shrewd and cunning man who has precognitive power, no real enemies entering a relative happy society. Give some real reasons beyond "There will be rebellions!!!" why they won't listen to a benign and charismatic human.

Every rebellion reason is if he suddenly enters guns blazing and given he never did that until he had the overwhelming power to, is a twisted and poor leap of logic.

[Ghost Rider]

I belive in one of the Thrawn book that the Emperor's ability to influence minds was commented on how the Tie pilots skills suddenly dropped after he died.

Influence is one thing, control is another (which is why I differentiated between the two in my original post). Especially if Palpatine starts doing things that are contrary to the constitution of the Federation in an obscene way, like violating the Prime Directive, giving a lot of General Order 24's, and so on. Influencing a mind doesn't mean you make the person forget their loyalties, allegiances and oaths, and if Palpatine starts blatantly using force and violating things like the Seventh Guarantee, Starfleet Captains are going to be incensed no matter how much influence the Emperor can exert.

Brian

Yep...because a smart man always tell his peers to act against their will, and why exactly would he give these orders when he knows that these people are relatively benign?

Oh because he's Evil?

Sure, if we go and take out the facts he never did so in the Republic until he had a overwhelming army behind him that he could give these commands to.

I want to hear where you leaped to this thought.

[Lord Revan]

I think Palpatine would use the Romulan or other enemy of the Federation the same way he used the Trade Federation against the Republic. He's smart the Jedi and/or the Republic didn't realise where true danger was before it was too late. So he wouldn't go berserk as it would undo his plans (the Republic was no more willing to use leathal force then the federation would be).

[brianeyci]

Okay Brain...read the OP on regards to Force powers. It always HELPS to make sure the person in question is keeping them for debates, and usually they are kept because if we go that...should ever ST enters SW universe we take out subspace?

My apologies.

Onto the other points. Let's see...how he would he enforce his edicts. Let's think...he knows he has to BUILD a power base. What he's not going to try to actually and make an enemy for the Federation given they ramped up pretty quickly for war. He has little to no real opposition since he doesn't have to hide his actions because no Jedi. He just has to be shrewd to where he makes the Federation goes.

I'm not saying its impossible. I'm saying that Palpatine would have to be even more careful than he was in the SW verse. The power base is not already there for him to take over in the ST verse, unlike in the SW verse. He has to create the equivalent of stormtroopers or a ground force to take and hold planets and has to ramp up the Federation military for when he reveals his true colours.

And what rebellion? Do any of you really think he's going to come marching in with a Feddie version of a DS 2? Are you really that fucking stupid to jump to a conclusion that given he never did that until he was firmly ensconed in power. This is the same as going Napoleon declaring himself the Roman Emperor without an ARMY.

No, just that Palpatine would have to be more careful than he was in the SW verse. He doesn't have to make a DS2 in the ST verse, if he has Starfleet that is enough to threaten planets he doesn't like since there are no such things as planetary shields that can withstand the firepower of a fleet.

And he has demonstraed in HTTE and in a variety of X-Wing novels the ability cloud millions of minds to see what he wanted to see. But he doesn't need to do that given what his real purpose to make them WILLINGLY do what he wants. Mind control is great for battles not day to day usage...though he demonstrated he could do it for extended periods if need be.

Again, clouding minds and influencing people is not the same as mind control. Billions would follow Palpatine, but saying that there would be no dissenting opinions at all throughout the entire Federation's 150 member worlds is absurd, especially if Palpatine goes on a power trip and disbands the Federation Council or orders a General Order 24 somewhere. It can be done, but Palpatine would just have to be really careful.

So please stop throwing out pointless examples and think of a reason why a shrewd and cunning man who has precognitive power, no real enemies entering a relative happy society. Give some real reasons beyond "There will be rebellions!!!" why they won't listen to a benign and charismatic human.

There is a ST equivalent of this. There was a story arc in TNG where mind controlling aliens started maneuvering people into certain positions in Starfleet. Individual Starfleet Captains rebelled, and I don't see why this wouldn't happen to Palpatine if he was not extremely careful. That would also be not in character of Palpatine. He is a dictator and like all dictators like seeing massive armies march in front of him while he is standing on a balcony. He doesn't like dissenting opinions and would disband the Federation Council once he maneuvered the pieces into position. If you say that he would just secretly take out the lifeforce of Federation citizens while appearing to be a benign man, that is not in character with Palpatine. After Palpatine has his military might, he will act like a tyrant. If one world rebelled, he would send his equivalent of stormtroopers to that world, or if they are unavailable he would order a General Order 24. That would generate sympathy towards the rebellion cause just like it did in SW.

Rebellions would happen if Palpatine did the same thing he did in SW. Overtaxing colony worlds (in ST's case it would be asking for too many resources), disbanding the Federation Council, and being a tyrant. It won't happen right away when he is elected Fed Pres obviously. I don't see how you can draw the conclusion that just because there are no Jedi in the ST verse, that Palpatine would have a cakewalk. He would have to be just as careful, if not more because he would have to build up certain institutions from scratch like his Imperial Guard and his stormtroopers.

Also, you can't have it both ways. If Palpatine was transported to the ST verse with his force powers intact, then there is an energy field in the ST verse al la The Force, and The Force will seek to balance itself out with a virgin birth just like in SW and a few decades later we would see a lightsaber duel between whoever Palpatine chose to be his deciple. And if that guy loses, more "The One's" will be born later to balance the Force. It might be awhile, but Palpatine will eventually be defeated.

Every rebellion reason is if he suddenly enters guns blazing and given he never did that until he had the overwhelming power to, is a twisted and poor leap of logic.

Obviously that is not what I am claiming. I am claiming that Palpatine would have to be more careful. For example I noted that there are no stormtroopers or even close equivalents, people able to take and hold ground, in ST. Nor does the Fed Pres have the powers that the Chancellor does. Nor is the Fed Fleet like the Republic's fleet -- if even a few worlds rebelled they could pose a serious threat to Palpatine's power base given that the one planet the Dominion had worried SF that it would have enough resources to construct a fleet powerful enough to challenge the Federation.

Brian

[Lord of the Farce]

In the ST verse, midichlorines might not exist. There is no evidence that there is a great energy field binding the universe giving people supernatural powers.
-snip

Except that one can argue that many of the various "powers" displayed by various ST races (and individual beings) are really manifestations of the Force. And, [NJO spoilers]we know from The Unifying Force (and various other hints littered throughout the NJO series) that the Yuuzhan Vong are a special exception, not the rule.[/NJO spoilers]

The Emperor also needs a way to enforce his edicts. In the SW verse this was the stormtroopers. What is the equivalent in the ST verse? Redshirts?
-snip

Do you really think that Sidious is going to try to openly exert his rule without shifting things to his favor?

And has the Emperor DEMONSTRATED the ability to control thousands of minds at once? In the EU or in the movies? Sure you could argue that he can blow Borg Cubes out of the sky and such, or that he can influence the minds of thousands to be sympathetic to his cause, but can he CONTROL the minds of thousands, each mind being an extension of himself?

Palpatine could have a fucking aircraft carrier burried in the middle of Washington DC, and nobody (except those that he wants to) would ever remember it happening (ref: The Krytos Trap).

[brianeyci]

Yep...because a smart man always tell his peers to act against their will, and why exactly would he give these orders when he knows that these people are relatively benign?

Oh because he's Evil?

Sure, if we go and take out the facts he never did so in the Republic until he had a overwhelming army behind him that he could give these commands to.

I want to hear where you leaped to this thought.

Look I'm not saying that Palpatine would go around influencing minds and controlling everybody before he set his pieces up. I'm directly responding to the point that there would be no rebellion in the ST verse since Palpatine could just mind control everybody.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Except that one can argue that many of the various "powers" displayed by various ST races (and individual beings) are really manifestations of the Force. And, [NJO spoilers]we know from The Unifying Force (and various other hints littered throughout the NJO series) that the Yuuzhan Vong are a special exception, not the rule.[/NJO spoilers]

Actually I didn't read the op properly so my original point was invalid. However as a new point, if you assume that "The Force" exists in the ST verse, then The Force would attempt to bring balance to itself after Palpatine appeared by creating the ST equivalent of Anakin.

Do you really think that Sidious is going to try to openly exert his rule without shifting things to his favor?

Of course not, just that he would have to be more careful and patient to create a stormtrooper force in the ST verse because the pieces aren't there yet.

Palpatine could have a fucking aircraft carrier burried in the middle of Washington DC, and nobody (except those that he wants to) would ever remember it happening (ref: The Krytos Trap).

Sure. But saying that since there are no Jedi therefore there would be no rebellion in the ST verse is absurd. There were no Jedi after Palpatine's extermination, and then he showed his true colours and worlds rebelled. After he disbanded the Federation Council and ordered a couple of General Order 24's, Federation colonies and rim planets would start to seriously consider rebelling.

Brian