Naval Troopers v's Federation troops

[harbringer]

The two lightweights (actually featherweight....)

Naval troopers normal gear E11 blaster and pistol and uniform no support from stormtroopers or verhicles.

Federation red/gold shirts with their phaser rifle/pistol and uniform.

Even numbers in a forest enviroment where due to an anomaly the tricorders and transporters wont work...

Who walks out if anyone? would this be less one sided than ST or CT engagements against federation troops. Would the death star security troops (the same but in snazzy black and supposedly more elite) fare any differently.

[Mange]

Naval troops. The Empire trains its personnel.

[Gunhead]

Navies take it, blaster is still a blaster. Trekkie gun still doesn't penetrate leaves, twigs or basically anything. Navies will take casualties but firepower is on their side, that's what counts.

-Gunhead

[brianeyci]

Sorry Ladies.

Unless the EU shows naval personnel fighting somewhere, SW naval personnel have undefined fighting capabilities. Defined vs undefined, and the win defaults to the defined. How many times have we seen naval personnel fighting? How many times ST personnel fighting? Training my ass, if we're talking about post-Dominion war redshirts they're smart enough to use a sight on a phaser rifle.

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

Umm...right, because you've read all the EU and can confirm that when an ISD is boarded, no pirates, rebels, or anyone ever met an Imperial personnel...because they were also fighting Stormtroopers.

Oh wait...we have canon proof that doesn't happen, and even better still they write sourcebooks showing that the Navy is trained when Stormies aren't there 24/7 in the billions.

And as for Federation capabilities...do we have to pop back to Nemesis and Insurrection and look how fucking horrible they were with their aim?

Yes, having sights is one thing...learning to HIT something five meters in front of them is another.

Jesus fucking christ use your goddamn head.

[brianeyci]

Nemesis and Insurrection is a low-end, I admit. A really bad low-end.

But if we use Dominion War veterans, they know how to shoot at least. Reference ST:DS9 Siege of AR-559 when Jemmies were falling by the dozens.

Also, the Feds can finally use the widebeam stun in this scenario.

It is not as clear-cut as "blasters have more firepower therefore they win".

Brian

[harbringer]

Naval personel were on endor and many other places in the EU, they managed to hit what they aimed at when NOT shooting at people they were told to keep alive.....

I felt this might even things up a bit and yes you can use wide beam but what is the actual range? will you have a bunch of fools using wide beam (YAY we can use it...) while the naval troopers are safely out of range?. What f they are not bunched together like the jem hadar? (which might even give a reason for hordes of them dying........)

Also keep in mind this is a forest so you will have a lot of stuff soaking up your "wide beam" shot.

Would the lack of sensors hamper the effectiveness of the naval troopers?
Or conversely make them more aware (without a variety of modes to choose from and no radio orders to annoy them can they hear better??).

[Ghost Rider]

With no sensors...not as good, but as you pointed Endor was a better shy that they actually shot what they needed.

Also brian...you really don't fucking grasp what low and high ends are, do you? Saying Nemesis and Insurrection are really low ends is abusing the whole idea of what they are, dumbfuck.

Learn what they are and how they APPLY to scientific QUANTIFICATION.

[brianeyci]

Also brian...you really don't fucking grasp what low and high ends are, do you? Saying Nemesis and Insurrection are really low ends is abusing the whole idea of what they are, dumbfuck.

Learn what they are and how they APPLY to scientific QUANTIFICATION.

Science eh? You readily accepted Klingons getting their ass kicked by bitchslaps as a Klingon "low-end". I don't see why these situations are any different. It is the training in question. What we know of Riker, he doesn't even think wargames are important at all and probably scoffs at even basic phaser training as a waste of time, hence the horrible accuracy of Ent security. Compare that to Captains like Jellicho (sp) or even Sisko. If I'm being an idiot, spell it out for me please (and feel free to embarass me if you want) because I thought I grasped scientific quantification in grade six, I really do want to know if I am that off.

Brian

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Also keep in mind this is a forest so you will have a lot of stuff soaking up your "wide beam" shot.

Would the lack of sensors hamper the effectiveness of the naval troopers?
Or conversely make them more aware (without a variety of modes to choose from and no radio orders to annoy them can they hear better??).

They have a radio (comlink, presumably attached to the helmet). The average naval trooper's helmet, AFAIK, provides no combat aid and they are unarmored except for the helmet. I'd link you to the GEDB except the site seems to be down.

Anyway, the RPG stats suggest they have basic training (3D or 3D+1) in blasters, grenades, vibroblades and plain brawling, and they are proficient (4D level) with the blaster rifle.

It'd definitely be less one sided. With sensors and support unavailable to both sides, the battle would be on luck. Both forces are pushed into this stupid scenario they aren't designed for (they are meant to fight on ships, not in forests among other things). Whichever side gets lucky and spots the enemy first will, assuming they have any brains, get into an ambush and that will basically be that for the other side's unit.

If the Feds got working tricorders in this case, therefore, they are almost certain to win. This game is all about reconaissance in poor visibility conditions and getting into the good spots. If the other guy doesn't spot your ambush before he walks into it, whatever's in the ambush is dead.

[Lord Revan]

Here's I could find on the Navy Troopers this is probaly the GEDB link.

[Gunhead]

Well at least those navy guys wear boots, a big plus when humping through a forest. If the feds are dropped into the forest with their regular footwear, big trouble is coming their way.

Yes, proper clothing goes a long way in a combat situation. Ain't that something.

-Gunhead

[Stofsk]

Also, the Feds can finally use the widebeam stun in this scenario.

Two points:

1. From my experience, wide-beam phaser settings have only been seen once, and that was on the bridge of Voyager (maybe there was something in DS9; but I don't think that was combat related but anti-changeling security). In any case, we see it's effectiveness in CQB, but that's it, and only if we're being generous.

2. The OP scenario is NOT CQB. It's in a forest environment.

[wautd]

Also, the Feds can finally use the widebeam stun in this scenario.

Two points:

1. From my experience, wide-beam phaser settings have only been seen once, and that was on the bridge of Voyager

Probably because it has a very short lethal range. And iirc it was during a TNG episode?

[Ghost Rider]

Also brian...you really don't fucking grasp what low and high ends are, do you? Saying Nemesis and Insurrection are really low ends is abusing the whole idea of what they are, dumbfuck.

Learn what they are and how they APPLY to scientific QUANTIFICATION.

Science eh? You readily accepted Klingons getting their ass kicked by bitchslaps as a Klingon "low-end". I don't see why these situations are any different. It is the training in question. What we know of Riker, he doesn't even think wargames are important at all and probably scoffs at even basic phaser training as a waste of time, hence the horrible accuracy of Ent security. Compare that to Captains like Jellicho (sp) or even Sisko. If I'm being an idiot, spell it out for me please (and feel free to embarass me if you want) because I thought I grasped scientific quantification in grade six, I really do want to know if I am that off.

Brian

I see your fucktard notions doesn't grasp...that Klingons performing badly is not quantification of anything unless you want to use it as their reaction speed. The reason they perform so poorly in almost every instance is they have shown time and time again to engage in MELEE combat when their opponents have MISSLE weapons firing at them. That and their melee skils are abysmal. Getting bitchslapped down is not a the best showing but the fact that two Cardassians were in a small alley way, but not behind any sort of barrier, and slaughtering them as they came their way, is a sign of poor tactics.

And it wasn't just Riker who was missing from less then 10 meters dumbfuck.

High and low ends are for Q-U-A-N-T-I-F-I-C-A-T-I-O-N. For your braindead self to put simply what can you can quanitfy as benchmarks in these battles? You notice for some reason people show things like scientific notations when they talk of quanitfying materials such as Meters, Newtons and other terminology?

Learn what the terms mean before spewing them like a cock sucking Trektard who just heard his first reverse polarity phrase term and believes this qualifies him to debate physics.

And Kaz...no such tricorder, it's mentioned specifcally in the OP.

[harbringer]

Both forces are pushed into this stupid scenario they aren't designed for (they are meant to fight on ships, not in forests among other things).

The point kinda was they wern't fighting on a ship it was meant to give a enviroment where training could make the best of what equipment they had on hand. And of course both have been deployed into a forest before . On a ship grenades drill and wide beam would be more of an issue as would security systems and circumventing the same, while that may be a good topic someday it isn't simply who is better is it .

Thanks all for the extra info on Naval Troopers.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

The point kinda was they wern't fighting on a ship it was meant to give a enviroment where training could make the best of what equipment they had on hand. And of course both have been deployed into a forest before . On a ship grenades drill and wide beam would be more of an issue as would security systems and circumventing the same, while that may be a good topic someday it isn't simply who is better is it .

I don't know about the redshirts, but at least at Endor, they were deployed with a bunch of scout-troopers, who have sensors.

[harbringer]

Kaz in general I agree but this was to make it NT only against RS only thats why I limited sensors. I could have evened it out by giving the NT ground sensors and binoculers (which in SW have quite a few features...) but that would have resulted in the ST fanboys whinging I had stiffed them.

This way it is ONLY weapons/armour (not much in this case....) and training for each troop type. In my mind the NT are well trained trained enough to do the job, well equiped (as well equiped if not better than the rebels, even if not as well equiped as the ST).

In this situation training is of the upmost importance as the best trained troops minimise the chance of being caught out patrol well and will be in general in a better position to kill the enemy in ambush or outright engage.

Overall RS have wide beam phaser fire and a greater reliance on individuals (both an advantage and a disadvantage in this situation). Otherwise I would have no issue at all with this going to the NT, as it is it would be hard for anyone to vote for or argue for the red shirts winning.

That is the loooong answer for making all sensors fail for the RS and the NT to force a reliance on training and their actual combat equipment. Training will if it is sufficient make up for the lack of sensors (ie. proper recon and patroling).

[brianeyci]

Before I reply GR, I think we have a misunderstanding. I was more referring to Federation phaser training as a whole, and saying that Nemesis and Insurrection would be a low-end of Federation phaser training. We have examples of Feds hitting shit five feet in front of them. Not that Riker is a good shot, or that Ent security would be good shots. They're horrible, and the only way for this to make sense is that they have no phaser training at all.

And, I thought about it a bit more, and really the Feds would lose. Badly. I was thinking of the things the Feds could do -- use widebeam, set a tricorder to overload and use them as grenades, and other wild things. But after coming up with all these ideas, the realization hit me that the Feds use none of this. Type-II's should be the perfect weapon for supressing fire, but they never use widebeam this way. They never use their detpacks or explosives as traps, despite the existence of quite powerful explosives. They never set their tricorders to overload and use them as grenades. The usual justification for not using widebeam is that it takes too much ammunition, but we know phasers are regenerative and widebeam was used extensively by the Defiant crew to look for the hidden changeling (although these were modified phasers, they didn't change the magazine only some technobabble). They never shoot and run, only sit behind their packing crates or rocks. They never try to flank or gain higher ground. Despite transporters, they never use them to their advantage in a firefight, only to run. Did you know that Starfleet standard issue is a knife (REF VOY where Janeway pulls out a standard kit and inside is a knife, tricorder and a Type-II phaser IIRC). Ever see them use knives (especially against the Borg) in melee? What does this mean? The Feds are fucking idiots. In the end I can think of all the great things they can do with their toys, but in character they never do them, so the Feds are fucked.

I see your fucktard notions doesn't grasp...that Klingons performing badly is not quantification of anything unless you want to use it as their reaction speed. The reason they perform so poorly in almost every instance is they have shown time and time again to engage in MELEE combat when their opponents have MISSLE weapons firing at them. That and their melee skils are abysmal. Getting bitchslapped down is not a the best showing but the fact that two Cardassians were in a small alley way, but not behind any sort of barrier, and slaughtering them as they came their way, is a sign of poor tactics.

You really don't remember do you? I know you probably respond to a hundred posts a day, so here's a reminder. You accepted my assertion that Klingons being bitchslapped by Kira was a low-end for Klingon physique, not for speed. I never mentioned speed once in my post. Yet you accepted it. Do you want a linky? I don't see why if you say you can accept Klingons being bitchslapped into unconciousness as a low end for Klingon strength, why you can't accept Enterprise-D/Enterprise-E phaser training as a low end for phaser training. Which if how badly they shoot is to make sense, none.

And it wasn't just Riker who was missing from less then 10 meters dumbfuck.

I never said it was just Riker. I meant that Riker's dislike of wargames supports the hypothesis that there is If I wasn't clearer before, I was more referring to Federation phaser training as a whole, and saying that Nemesis and Insurrection was the worst kind of phaser training you could get -- eg. none. We know that with training, you can hit a moving disc several meters away with a Type-II. Even basic phaser training would teach someone to use their sight. The only explaination that makes sense is that Enterprise security get little to no training with a phaser.

High and low ends are for Q-U-A-N-T-I-F-I-C-A-T-I-O-N. For your braindead self to put simply what can you can quanitfy as benchmarks in these battles? You notice for some reason people show things like scientific notations when they talk of quanitfying materials such as Meters, Newtons and other terminology?

Excuse me? I can give examples of Feds being able to shoot shit five feet in front of them. You accepted before that Klingons being knocked unconcious by Kira was a low-end for Klingon physique. If you don't remember fine, its right at that link. I also used no scientific notation or units when I made that statement, and you didn't slam me there.

Learn what the terms mean before spewing them like a cock sucking Trektard who just heard his first reverse polarity phrase term and believes this qualifies him to debate physics.

Who said I was qualified to debate physics? How is recalling specific situations where non-Enterprise redshirts can shoot shit five feet in front of them debating physics?

And Kaz...no such tricorder, it's mentioned specifcally in the OP.

They have tricorders, they're just jammed. If they were smart, they would set them to overload and use them as grenades. But they're not, and will probably do what Harry did in some unnamed episode in VOY -- stare at the tricorder screen trying to fiddle with it while the enemy sneaks around and gets the jump.

Brian

[brianeyci]

As an aside, since we pretty much agree the Feds will lose, how would you beef them up? Lets alter the scenario slightly. You have two weeks to train the Feds to at least hold their own against the naval troopers. You have a portable holodeck (for some inexplicable reason you can't load any porn into it so just forget it, yes I'm talking to you). Same parameters, except after the training you'll be magically teleported by... ah Q, to the forest, so you can't plant explosives everywhere or plan ahead. So, the whole point is to get the Feds to make the best of the equipment they have -- knives, Type-II's, Type-III's, Type-IIIa's, tricorders, and what the hell lets say there's enough redshirts around so you have a few detpacks and even a few EVA suits (although what use these would be I don't know). I have some ideas but I'll wait til I hear what some have to say.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Oh to make it interesting, how about the Feds under your command get a couple of Type-IV's (argo mounted phaser cannon). Of course, then the Naval troopers get their own few E-Webs, but this makes the scenario more interesting anyway. At least it gives both sides a couple of machine gun nests.

Brian

[harbringer]

Brian,

As rule I assumed that the troops involved were fully trained think if you will kira or sisko in charge, the point is that all participants are trained. Now prove that the bad shooting isn't due to equipment and your good to go.

As for tooling up where do you think I should stop? we have cannon evidence that verhicles are used with naval troopers should I give them AT-AT support???. How about we get everyone to say yes the NT will win then maybe give both sides sensors and a support weapon or two?.

A question for eveyone :

a) is everyone agreed that the Naval troopers will win and

b) does anyone support bryan in giving our "guinea pigs" extra kit??

if the answer is yes to the last one the NT get the fancy binoculers and some ground sensors to make up for the feds having tricorders ie: everyone has access to information on everything the sensors can see. Since at endor there were sensors at the sheild generator and scout troopers (who for obious reasons can't be used here). Also in addition to the above kit the NT get E-webs, a full line of grenades, grappeling hook and winch (in the belt a la ANH) and the support version of the E11 (one per section). RS get tricorders a support phaser (similar to the one on the dune buggy thing) and the launcher that worf used in the other movie involving the Baku (one per officer) the RS dont get grenades as I cant remember them used on screen but may overload tricorders (as I know this has been done) and phasers.

[brianeyci]

Its possible to get good at firing a Type-II. Reference Picard shooting those flying discs, or Guinan. Not necessarily an equipment problem. Also, we've seen people tinker with their phasers. Alter the geometry so that the Type-II fires on axis would be a good start, although with rounded edges and no ironsight I'm not sure it would help much.

Harbringer -- the whole point of me mentioning training is that the Feds can't win by just give them extra equipment. Even if you give the Feds Argos, they would probably fuck it up too. Look, it doesn't take a genius to see that the Type-II could be used as supressive fire in widebeam, but we never see someone stick their Type-II around the corner and fire on widebeam for example. No matter what you give the Feds, they will lose unless you give them obscene numbers. The only way around it is to give the Feds a couple of weeks with say someone from HAB to knock some sense into them.

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

I see your fucktard notions doesn't grasp...that Klingons performing badly is not quantification of anything unless you want to use it as their reaction speed. The reason they perform so poorly in almost every instance is they have shown time and time again to engage in MELEE combat when their opponents have MISSLE weapons firing at them. That and their melee skils are abysmal. Getting bitchslapped down is not a the best showing but the fact that two Cardassians were in a small alley way, but not behind any sort of barrier, and slaughtering them as they came their way, is a sign of poor tactics.

You really don't remember do you? I know you probably respond to a hundred posts a day, so here's a reminder. You accepted my assertion that Klingons being bitchslapped by Kira was a low-end for Klingon physique, not for speed. I never mentioned speed once in my post. Yet you accepted it. Do you want a linky? I don't see why if you say you can accept Klingons being bitchslapped into unconciousness as a low end for Klingon strength, why you can't accept Enterprise-D/Enterprise-E phaser training as a low end for phaser training. Which if how badly they shoot is to make sense, none.

Jesus fucking christ on a ppgo stick...you are fucking dumb.

And look a nitpicker to boot.

Okay dumfuck...YOU CAN QUANTIFY STRENGTH!

And it wasn't just Riker who was missing from less then 10 meters dumbfuck.

I never said it was just Riker. I meant that Riker's dislike of wargames supports the hypothesis that there is If I wasn't clearer before, I was more referring to Federation phaser training as a whole, and saying that Nemesis and Insurrection was the worst kind of phaser training you could get -- eg. none. We know that with training, you can hit a moving disc several meters away with a Type-II. Even basic phaser training would teach someone to use their sight. The only explaination that makes sense is that Enterprise security get little to no training with a phaser.

Nice to see you don't grasp the difference between COMBAT and TRAINING.

TWO of the examples were combat...and your point is TRAINING.

ONE has live fire, the other DOES NOT.

Does this shit have to be spelled out for you to get it through your fucking idiotic brain before you get it?

High and low ends are for Q-U-A-N-T-I-F-I-C-A-T-I-O-N. For your braindead self to put simply what can you can quanitfy as benchmarks in these battles? You notice for some reason people show things like scientific notations when they talk of quanitfying materials such as Meters, Newtons and other terminology?

Excuse me? I can give examples of Feds being able to shoot shit five feet in front of them. You accepted before that Klingons being knocked unconcious by Kira was a low-end for Klingon physique. If you don't remember fine, its right at that link. I also used no scientific notation or units when I made that statement, and you didn't slam me there.

Listen you fucking retard...you CAN QUANTIFY STRENGTH.

Do you grasp that...you do know there are notations in quantifying strength...maybe I was wrong to assume when you made that post you actually understood how the fuck you can fucking do THAT.

ACCURACY IS NOT DONE BY ANY SENSE OF NEWTONS, METER/SECOND OR ANYTHING.

It's percentile and so far...the Federation percentile is ABYSMALLY LOW.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?

Learn what the terms mean before spewing them like a cock sucking Trektard who just heard his first reverse polarity phrase term and believes this qualifies him to debate physics.

Who said I was qualified to debate physics? How is recalling specific situations where non-Enterprise redshirts can shoot shit five feet in front of them debating physics?

Glad to see your brain isn't working still

And Kaz...no such tricorder, it's mentioned specifcally in the OP.

They have tricorders, they're just jammed. If they were smart, they would set them to overload and use them as grenades. But they're not, and will probably do what Harry did in some unnamed episode in VOY -- stare at the tricorder screen trying to fiddle with it while the enemy sneaks around and gets the jump.

Brian

Good leap of logic...so their machinery doesn't work but can be set to explode. Phasers yes...when has a Tricoredr done this magically feat to any appreciable level again?

So I guess the Imps can use their spare carbine charges and do the same.

[brianeyci]

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW?

Yes.

Good leap of logic...so their machinery doesn't work but can be set to explode. Phasers yes...when has a Tricoredr done this magically feat to any appreciable level again?

I believe Spock had his tricorder overload. You can argue TOS, but continuity is a bitch and unless we have a reason to believe otherwise the newer tricorders can overload as well. I can see if I can find an example in VOY of a tricorder overloading if you want.

Brian