Tech Understanding

[Admiral Felire]

Okay, before you all start screeming troll. I have a question. But before I ask it I will need to explain a background a little.

A small group of Imperials have managed to make it into the Star Trek galaxy. They have all the time in the world as they can't go back home. They also have individuals trained in almost all scientific and engineering disciplines that can be learned in the military academy.

Okay, during their adventures exploring the galaxy they capture a Federation starship. Now, my question is: given some time and understanding could the Imperials manage to understand Warp technology and replicate it on their starships. I also would like to know how long this would take, roughly. I don't expect it to be quick because that would be simplistic, but I do think it would be possible.

I figure the technology is not that advanced and definitly not impossible to duplicate because of how it was created in the first place by humanity. It was during a time of chaos and war, and a small group of scientists without much resources managed to modify a missile into a warp capable vessel. It was simplistic but it worked.

Any, information would be appreciated.

[Sarevok]

Well the the Star Wars galaxy had access to subspace technology for over 25000 years. Subspace is a major component in warp drive techonology if I recall correctly. So that would form a major first stepping stone in reverse engineering a Federation warp drive.

Also a group of ragtag people with no support from major scientific organizations in the aftermath of a major world war were able to create a functioning warp drive. So I dont think warp drive is very complicated and the Imperials with their 25000 years of experience with advanced technology should stand a good chance.

[General Zod]

this has been done before iirc. why would they want to duplicate warp technology in the first place? hyperdrive is thousands of times faster. crossing a galaxy in a matter of days trumps crossing one in 70 years.

[Winston Blake]

this has been done before iirc. why would they want to duplicate warp technology in the first place? hyperdrive is thousands of times faster. crossing a galaxy in a matter of days trumps crossing one in 70 years.

Well the first thing which jumps to mind is the lack of supporting infrastructure and stuff like hypermatter fuel in the Trek galaxy. A small, isolated band of ISDs might need to start 'living off the land' and exploiting whatever technological resources they manage to find.

[brianeyci]

And of course there's always... warp strafing.

Brian

[Eleas]

A small group of Imperials have managed to make it into the Star Trek galaxy. They have all the time in the world as they can't go back home. They also have individuals trained in almost all scientific and engineering disciplines that can be learned in the military academy.

Okay, during their adventures exploring the galaxy they capture a Federation starship. Now, my question is: given some time and understanding could the Imperials manage to understand Warp technology and replicate it on their starships. I also would like to know how long this would take, roughly. I don't expect it to be quick because that would be simplistic, but I do think it would be possible.

This is still an area with which the scientists probably do not have practical experience. Unless there is a historical Warp Drive that is so well known and simple that it can be implemented by anyone knowledgeable enough, there's going to have to be some fudging and testing. Since Cochrane could build it with the resources of a 21th century Earth, the Imperials should be able to build a Warp engine in a few years at the most. They will, however, probably have to work a hell of a lot before they ever get their Warp prototype even approaching the ability of conventional ships. Assuming they implement SW theories and solutions, I could see them reaching similar speeds in around a decade, maybe two, but this is of course wild speculation. I'd use it for fanfic background, not much else.

And of course there's always... warp strafing.

Whose usefulness has been wildly overstated.

[brianeyci]

Whose usefulness has been wildly overstated.

Usefulness overstated for Feds, not for Imps. The usual justification for the Feds not using warp strafing more often is that they're stupid. I've proposed other justifications, such as shunting warp power to the shields and weapons, and a technobabble solution in DS9 where Worf manages to disable a whole fleet of ships with a BOP. Nevertheless, the usefulness is there. ISD's moving faster that the MF (sublight), how can you resist?

Brian

[Eleas]

Usefulness overstated for Feds, not for Imps. The usual justification for the Feds not using warp strafing more often is that they're stupid. I've proposed other justifications, such as shunting warp power to the shields and weapons, and a technobabble solution in DS9 where Worf manages to disable a whole fleet of ships with a BOP. Nevertheless, the usefulness is there. ISD's moving faster that the MF (sublight), how can you resist?

There is no onscreen evidence that a Warp-traveling agressor can fire upon and hit a superluminal target. The closest we get is the Picard Maneuver, in which the vessel fires upon exiting warp.

Now let's not hijack Admiral Felire's thread; if we want to continue discussing it, I propose the start of a new thread.

[Crown]

this has been done before iirc. why would they want to duplicate warp technology in the first place? hyperdrive is thousands of times faster. crossing a galaxy in a matter of days trumps crossing one in 70 years.

Well the first thing which jumps to mind is the lack of supporting infrastructure and stuff like hypermatter fuel in the Trek galaxy. A small, isolated band of ISDs might need to start 'living off the land' and exploiting whatever technological resources they manage to find.

Winston explained this pretty well, I'd just like to add something;

Knowledge is a pyramid type structure. For example; I hold a bachelor degree in Aerospace engineering. I design planes, does this mean I can build one? No. Because I don't have the machine tools, the material science, the electrical expertiese, etc.

I could build a remote control plane from my own design, but again I need other people to supply their inputs (balsa wood, glue, epoxy, resin, electric motor, etc).

See what I'm getting at?

[Eleas]

Winston explained this pretty well, I'd just like to add something;

Knowledge is a pyramid type structure. For example; I hold a bachelor degree in Aerospace engineering. I design planes, does this mean I can build one? No. Because I don't have the machine tools, the material science, the electrical expertiese, etc.

I could build a remote control plane from my own design, but again I need other people to supply their inputs (balsa wood, glue, epoxy, resin, electric motor, etc).

See what I'm getting at?

Indeed. I sort of assumed that the Imperials would scrounge materials from other people. Building the components from scratch would be a lost case.

[SirNitram]

Warp Strafing is a ridiculous concept, screw everything else about who does it. Does a fighter jet hit a ground target while flying with it's afterburners on full burn? No, it does not. If those advocating it thought carefully instead of stamping their feet, they could realize a number of reasons why.

[Chmee]

If they've captured a Starship, the key is cracking the computer access codes, isn't it? Once they've done that, they have access to the entire ship's library of tech manuals and theoretical treatises.

[Admiral Felire]

Knowledge is a pyramid type structure. For example; I hold a bachelor degree in Aerospace engineering. I design planes, does this mean I can build one? No. Because I don't have the machine tools, the material science, the electrical expertiese, etc.

That is true, of course, but if you have multiple physical engineers that could build stuff yet don't really understanding how to design stuff well then the two would work real well together. Each backing the others deficiencies and turning them into strength.

If they've captured a Starship, the key is cracking the computer access codes, isn't it? Once they've done that, they have access to the entire ship's library of tech manuals and theoretical treatises.

In answer to your question, yes they have captured a Federation starship. And they have used threats to the other crewmen to get some of them to assist the Imperials. Federation engineers who understand warp technology.

In another vein, the Imps have raided a number of high tech worlds (well, according to Star Trek standards) and have access to their already constructed electronics, and other such things. Most of it was completely useless so the Imps melted it down for the metals, but still some was saved and given to the engineering crews.

Now with all this, I understand that it won't be a simple process but still I think it can be done. And while a buch of you (which I am glad that you posted, any ideas are helpful) thing it would be useless and pointless you still (mostly) thing that it would be possible for the Imps to understand it given enough time.

Thanks for the imput and ideas.

[Winston Blake]

If they've captured a Starship, the key is cracking the computer access codes, isn't it? Once they've done that, they have access to the entire ship's library of tech manuals and theoretical treatises.

They'll still need to learn all about that stuff to actually implement anything, and it could take years to get a team of imperial engineers at the same level of expertise as the trek crew (after all, they probably spent years in a university/academy themselves). I'm in favour of the imperials simply torturing them and forcing them to run the captured ships for them, loading up their shuttlebays with fighters/bombers/gunboats etc while the now impotent ISDs are having warp drives designed and built for them.

Also, forget cracking the access codes, just torture the hell out of the top officers.

[Chmee]

If they've captured a Starship, the key is cracking the computer access codes, isn't it? Once they've done that, they have access to the entire ship's library of tech manuals and theoretical treatises.

They'll still need to learn all about that stuff to actually implement anything, and it could take years to get a team of imperial engineers at the same level of expertise as the trek crew (after all, they probably spent years in a university/academy themselves). I'm in favour of the imperials simply torturing them and forcing them to run the captured ships for them, loading up their shuttlebays with fighters/bombers/gunboats etc while the now impotent ISDs are having warp drives designed and built for them.

Also, forget cracking the access codes, just torture the hell out of the top officers.

Yeah, poor choice of words, I should say 'Get the access codes' ....

I really don't see this taking years for an Imp engineer to get up to speed on ... they're presumably already very well versed on subspace mechanics, they're just being exposed to some new applications.

As far as manufacturing parts, I'm unclear on Trek canon in this area, but I've always presumed that there were industrial versions of the food replicators in Engineering that they use to fabricate spare parts. I mean, how else do they go from being shot all to hell in the middle of the quadrant to getting back up & running with warp drives? The only things you should need to go to a spacedock for are parts that are physically too big for the fabricators (SG-1 has made me averse to using the term 'replicator' in Trek discussions).

[Eleas]

Yeah, poor choice of words, I should say 'Get the access codes' ....

I really don't see this taking years for an Imp engineer to get up to speed on ... they're presumably already very well versed on subspace mechanics, they're just being exposed to some new applications.

It's a matter of routines. If they took over a ship, obviously they'd have its warp drive and the use of the ship itself. They'd still have to train themselves in its operation, of course. If they had the original crew, learning how to use it would take comparatively little time, but the Starfleet methodology of driving a starship is completely different from the Imperial one, so they'd probably be lacking in reaction speed and ability to improvise.

Their advantage would largely lie in their ability to utilize principles that the Federation has yet to discover, but to do that, they first have to understand the workings of the systems they do have.

First thing I would do is to map the workings of the system upon decent control interfaces, so the Imperials could operate the ship more efficiently.

As far as manufacturing parts, I'm unclear on Trek canon in this area, but I've always presumed that there were industrial versions of the food replicators in Engineering that they use to fabricate spare parts. I mean, how else do they go from being shot all to hell in the middle of the quadrant to getting back up & running with warp drives?
The only things you should need to go to a spacedock for are parts that are physically too big for the fabricators (SG-1 has made me averse to using the term 'replicator' in Trek discussions).

Simple. Either they use spares, or they call for help. It's possible that they replicate simple bulk material for large-scale patch jobs, but the last thing you want to do when the ship is knocked out is to depend on power-hogging systems like replicators for your survival.

[Jawawithagun]

So they travelled the galaxy in their own hyperspace-capable ships and they are able to capture a warp-capable ship in (presumably) working conditions.
Now, why would they WANT to replicate this drive system? They are human, they can set themself up in Federation space easily and infiltrate from there, they can capture more warp ships for their own means. Or they can root through their archives and history books and try to come up again with those engines that replaced warp drives in the SW galaxy 25,000 years ago. All these options would enable them to keep an edge instead of having to cut up their own ships.

[Enola Straight]

The Imps have a sublight drive, and a rediculously fast FTL drive.

There may be some practical advantage to a Mid-range drive:
Slower=more maneuverable. Instead of dropping out of hyper to avoid colliding with a mass shadow and recalculating a new course, just veer away from the object.

You also may have the time to gather more data from sensor arrays.

[DarkSilver]

So they travelled the galaxy in their own hyperspace-capable ships and they are able to capture a warp-capable ship in (presumably) working conditions.
Now, why would they WANT to replicate this drive system? They are human, they can set themself up in Federation space easily and infiltrate from there, they can capture more warp ships for their own means. Or they can root through their archives and history books and try to come up again with those engines that replaced warp drives in the SW galaxy 25,000 years ago. All these options would enable them to keep an edge instead of having to cut up their own ships.

Problem with that. Unless I'm mistaken, nothing "replaces" Warp Drive in the SW universe. Prior to Hyperdrive, there was no Superluminal Drive systems in exsistence within the Wars Universe. It took a mysterios race (later revealed to be the weird fishie people from "Knights of the Old Republic" (they started with a R, can't remember the creatures names) who conquered most of the Galaxy and when defeated, left thier Hyperdrive Tech to the enslaved races. That, and who said they traveled to the ST Galaxy/Universe under thier own power? Perhaps (as so many Fanfics use the basis of) they were sent there by "accident" (Act of Q, Act of the Force, whatever). They lack the ability to produce more Hypermatter on thier own, and eventually they will run out of fuel/spare parts. They will need to learn to adapt to thier new environ, or thier immensly powerful War Ships will become so much scrap metal.


So going into thier archives to find that earlier drive system which was replaced by Warp Drive, would make them go back to Sublight drive systems.

For the Original Post:

If they torture the Engineers onboard the ship, and have access to the Computer Cores, I imagine they'd be able to create a Warp Drive cira Cochrane-era within 5-15 years, with comprable TNG capable Warp Drives within a decade there after. With the constraints you placed the Imperial Ships already, given that in this scenario, thier trying to recreate the native drive systems, they would eventually have to replace thier tech, with the Fed/Klingon/Romulan variety, until the Alpha Quadrant infrastructure could be updated to support Imperial tech.

brianeyci:

Warp Strafing, if it is even possible, would not work, unless you are using a Torpedo weapon. Phasers, I do not think, would be able to go from Warp Space into Real Space, while torpedo's could always "leave" warp after being fired and still "streak" to thier target. So the justification for Fed's not using Warp Strafing, is that it is damn near impossible in the first place with anything but torpedo's.

(Side Note: everytime we have seen Phasers/Disruptors fired is always at like speed ships, Warp to Warp, Impulse to Impulse, never the other way)

[Batman]

Err- what evidence exactly do we have for there being such an entity as Warp Space in the first place? From all the Trek I remember, ships at Warp, thanks to technobabble, simply move through Einsteinian space FTL. Every weapon they release is theoretically capable of hitting a subluminal target. The propability of them doing so is abysmally low, thanks to the speed differential and their sucky targeting, but it is by no means impossible.

[DarkSilver]

Err- what evidence exactly do we have for there being such an entity as Warp Space in the first place? From all the Trek I remember, ships at Warp, thanks to technobabble, simply move through Einsteinian space FTL. Every weapon they release is theoretically capable of hitting a subluminal target. The propability of them doing so is abysmally low, thanks to the speed differential and their sucky targeting, but it is by no means impossible.

Warp Space is just my own term for when they go into Warp

Since for all intents and purposes, they don't exsist in Normal Space, while thier not entirely in Subspace either

-shrugs-

simple semantics, is all.

[Batman]

Warp Space is just my own term for when they go into Warp
Since for all intents and purposes, they don't exsist in Normal Space, while thier not entirely in Subspace either

If they DON'T exist in normal space one wonders what they need navigational deflectors for...

[DarkSilver]

Warp Space is just my own term for when they go into Warp
Since for all intents and purposes, they don't exsist in Normal Space, while thier not entirely in Subspace either

If they DON'T exist in normal space one wonders what they need navigational deflectors for...

Perhaps I should rephrase my last posting, not entirely in normal space.

Though, I did point out a line or two below, that I used the words purely for SEMANTICS, not a actual, literal figure.

It is a personal term, not something taken from canon, or I expect to actually hear anyone else using

[Batman]

DarkSilver, make up your mind-either ships at Warp DO interact with 'normal' space, or they do NOT. Either they DO (which, I'd like to add, is supported by the entirety of available evidence), in which case weapons launched at Warp CAN hit STL targets, or they do NOT, in which case they CAN'T. The nature of the weapon is utterly irrelevant.

[DarkSilver]

I am not in anyway disputing that Warp driven ships do interact with normal space. I simply had to rephrase what I said, because I did not make it clear on what I meant. I also noted the fact that I used the term which you first questioned me on as a simple semantic term, NOT in a literal sense.

But this has *zero* relevance on the subject of this thread, and I will no longer argue the point within it.

My apologies to the OP for any derailing caused by this.