phasers and lightsabers

[Jaepheth]

ok, I didn't see this topic when I searched, but what is the general concensus of what would happen when a lightsaber intersects a phaser beam?

For some reason I'm imagining the lightsaber wouldn't deflect the beam, but rather absorb it; and if the jedi doesn't cut something to release the energy, the lightsaber's power cell could overload after absorbing too many shots... but that's just my imagination talking.

hmm... couldn't work that way... the lightsaber blade is an arc, correct? so in order for it to absorb a phaser beam, the phaser would have to be what? the same charged particles as the emitter gives?

[Meest]

Lightsabres are known to deflect/interact with multiple MJ shots repeatedly without failure, would take one really long ass phaser to even start to be an issue.

[brianeyci]

Lightsabres are known to deflect/interact with multiple MJ shots repeatedly without failure, would take one really long ass phaser to even start to be an issue.

Phasers have shot for a long time. Reference Geordi when he was testing a Type-III.





(phasers.net)

Now we see that he's test firing the rifle, which is
held in a test stand with its muzzle inside a
containment chamber. Data is there, scanning
information displayed on the pool table.

DATA
Energy flow is within normal
parameters... from the prefire
chamber... to the emission
aperture.

GEORDI
Rapid nadion pulse is right on
target... beam control assembly,
safety interlock, both check out.

Geordi taps a control on the phaser; the beam varies
a little.

GEORDI
Beam width and intensity controls
also responding correctly.

DATA
Energy cell usage remains
constant at one-point-oh-five
megajoules per second.

Then Data responds to something he sees on a nearby
display.

Also the usual justification is that widebeam would not be able to harm a Sith/Jedi, because Sith/Jedi can resist their stun effects. That's a load of shit. I learned a week ago about the converse of the golden rule of sci-fi. Think about how we never use the "ST and SW could never interact because the physics are different" and realize that "The stun setting would be resisted by Sith because Sith have resisted a different kind of stun setting not the same as Trek stun setting but we should assume Trek stun setting is the same as stun in SW" is just the converse of the first statement, therefore logically equivalent, and therefore just as much of a crime to use this argument as the first. Not to mention that Winston Blake brought up a quote in a SW thread,

She raised the lightsaber to deflect the stun blast, but the paralyzing energy rippled around her from all sides and hammered Callista to the floor. Her lightsaber short-circuited, flashed out--and Callista crumpled into blackness...

(I am assuming the quote is accurate, since nobody blasted Winston Blake about it). Note that I am not using this quotation to prove that SW stun would be the same as ST stun -- I'm saying that the argument that Jedi can resist stun because they've resisted stun in the past is flawed in many ways, first and chief is that it violates the Golden Rule of debating sci-fi, and secondly that SW stun HAS been seen to disable Jedi so you can't use this argument in the first place even if we suspended the Golden Rule for some reason.

And if anybody doubts phaser rifles firing on widebeam,


(phasers.net)

You could make the argument that the Fed is currently using Type-IIIb pulse phasers, but still Type-II's have been seen to fire just as long as the phaser rifle in the picture on widebeam and single shot.

In the end though, it doesn't really matter. Jedi and Sith would not board Fed ships, they would never interact, and Vader would never attempt to take out a whole shitload of redshirts by himself. Villians always have henchmen to do their dirty work, even if they think they can do it themselves with relative ease -- an ego thing (REF all of SW). Vader/Palpatine would only show themselves in combat if there was a trained force-sensitive challenging the Empire in ST (which there obviously isn't).

Brian

[Vympel]

Also the usual justification is that widebeam would not be able to harm a Sith/Jedi, because Sith/Jedi can resist their stun effects. That's a load of shit.

Darth Vader deflected blasts from Han Solo's pistol with his bare hand into the surrounding walls. You know, blaster bolts meant to *kill*. Qui-Gon stood next to a melting armored blast door, he should've been burned to a crisp, he was unscathed.

Snip the rest for total lack of relevance.

[brianeyci]

Darth Vader deflected blasts from Han Solo's pistol with his bare hand into the surrounding walls. You know, blaster bolts meant to *kill*.

Darth Vader is the exception, not the rule for Jedi (IIRC nobody else deflects blaster bolts with Force, maybe in EU but not in movies). If we're talking Darth Vader specifically, we've never seen him deflect a continuous beam weapon. Assuming that he can deflect a continuous beam weapon because he can deflect short pulses is absurd.

Qui-Gon stood next to a melting armored blast door, he should've been burned to a crisp, he was unscathed.

Who cares. Phasers don't use thermal effects to kill anyway. Or did you forget that?

Snip the rest for total lack of relevance.

It is irrelevant that widebeam would be able to down a Sith/Jedi? Or that Type-III's or Type-II's do fire long enough to down a Sith/Jedi? Or that the usual justification, that the Jedi can resist stun in ST because they resisted a different kind of stun in SW is a load of shit?

Brian

[Shroom Man 777]

For one, the widebeam did jack shit to the furniture.

[Shroom Man 777]

Curse the lack of edit button. And two, Obi-Wan did deflect/absorb blaster bolts and fire from a flamethrower in the Clone Wars cartoons.

[brianeyci]

For one, the widebeam did jack shit to the furniture.

That's not the only example of widebeam.


(DS's Site. And before anybody accuses me of repeating DS's arguments, go to hell, Empire wins in a fight with the Feds anyday, I just got the image from his site and need to credit it, everything I've said are my own words).

The widebeam doesn't hurt any of the "furniture" in the bridge anyway, but that is easily explained as the density of human flesh is far less than the density of whatever metal their consoles and bulkheads are made of.

Curse the lack of edit button. And two, Obi-Wan did deflect/absorb blaster bolts and fire from a flamethrower in the Clone Wars cartoons.

Fine. But given that phasers don't work by thermal effects anyway, and the blaster bolt is not a continuous fire weapon and does not emit a widebeam shot, why should we assume that lightsabers or Force absorption would do shit to protect against a widebeam shot or a continuous beam Type-II or Type-III. You can make the argument that the Feds don't use widebeam very often, or that the Feds now use Type-IIIb's, which shoot pulses, but I don't see why its necessary. Vader/Palpatine would never ever come into contact with redshirts, they would let their goons do all the dirty work and would never need to show themselves, so in terms of a vs this is a totally hypothetical situation.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Oh, and for Vader, his armor would protect him from widebeam stun anyway.

Brian

[Vympel]

Darth Vader is the exception, not the rule for Jedi (IIRC nobody else deflects blaster bolts with Force, maybe in EU but not in movies). If we're talking Darth Vader specifically, we've never seen him deflect a continuous beam weapon. Assuming that he can deflect a continuous beam weapon because he can deflect short pulses is absurd.

It won't matter. Or did you think that the continuous beam would still be directed at them once it's leading edge has already been "returned to sender"? Furthermore, your claim that it is exceptional is nothing but wishful thinking. Yoda was also able to deflect force lightning into a wall (with destructive effects on said wall) from Count Dooku in AOTC.

Who cares. Phasers don't use thermal effects to kill anyway. Or did you forget that?

The point is that Jedi can absorb/re-direct/otherwise render harmless energy of far more destructive effect than a pussy-arse phaser. :rolleyes:

It is irrelevant that widebeam would be able to down a Sith/Jedi?

It's called ducking. Dodging. Or otherwise avoiding something your pre-cognition tells you your lightsabre won't stop. Like Anakin avoiding Geonosian sonic blasts in AOTC.

Or that Type-III's or Type-II's do fire long enough to down a Sith/Jedi?

Stupidity. The Jedi/Sith isn't going to stand there while being hosed with a continuous beam, the first part he deflects will be going straight back to the firer.

Or that the usual justification, that the Jedi can resist stun in ST because they resisted a different kind of stun in SW is a load of shit?

Brian

How about that this "usual justification" is a load of crap that I have never heard before?

[brianeyci]

It won't matter. Or did you think that the continuous beam would still be directed at them once it's already been deflected back to the source? Furthermore, your claim that it is exceptional is nothing but wishful thinking. Yoda was also able to deflect force lightning into a wall (with destructive effects on said wall) from Count Dooku in AOTC.

Being able to deflect Force Lightning is one thing. There is a great variation in skill in Jedi, and if we're not talking about the heavy hitters a continuous beam may be above their skill level. Jedi do not always deflect blaster bolts back towards their targets, it is not so sure a thing as you say, especially if two Type-II's fire on target.

The point is that Jedi can absorb/re-direct/otherwise render harmless energy of far more destructive effects than a pussy-arse phaser, especially a phaser set on stun. :rolleyes:

You specifically mentioned the Qui-Gon incident, which shows that Jedi have thermal resistance. Claiming that Jedi can then deflect all energy is absurd. Jedi have been killed by blasters before, so there's at least one type of energy that some Jedi cannot deflect.

It's called ducking. Dodging. Or otherwise avoiding something your pre-cognition tells you your lightsabre won't stop. Like Anakin avoiding Geonosian sonic blasts in AOTC.

So what. Widebeam from a Type-II has hit everybody in a room regardless of their position. Ducking or dodging is not a sure thing either, if it was no Jedi would have been killed by blaster fire. Nor is precog.

Stupidity. The Jedi/Sith isn't going to stand there while being hosed with a continuous beam, the first part he deflects will be going straight back to the firer.

Not necessarily, reference all the times when Jedi deflect shit and don't deflect it directly back at their targets. And what the hell happens if two phasers with continuous beam go towards the Jedi/Sith? Three? Five?

How about that this "usual justification" is a load of crap that I have never heard before?

The second two pictures are more interesting, from a combat perspective. Both of them show that a phaser can be fired on a very large area at once, and even engage multiple people at once. Anderson correctly points out that the intensity of the beam will necessarily decrease as the range increases, but he fails to mention one crucial detail: both phasers were set for stun. There is no evidence anywhere of a wide-angle kill setting even in Star Trek's most modern phasers. The effects of such a stun shot on a Jedi are unknown, but Jedi can clearly adjust their vital signs without significant difficulty. In TPM, Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were able to survive in a room filled with poisonous gas for what must have been a considerable amount of time. This would have been impossible, if Jedi lacked this ability. That Jedi control over their bodies through the Force is unquestioned, but the effects of phasers set for stun is not likely to be particularly impressive. Note that in "The Hunted" [TNG], a biochemically engineered soldier is able to resist numerous stun-blasts from phasers. It is unlikely that this would have been possible had he not been designed with the ability to do it, but it also demonstrates that stun beams are not as effective as they are sometimes proclaimed as being. The dispersed effect of a wide-angle shot would likely make it much more difficult to knock down Jedi, even if it did prevent them from fully deflecting the blast.

This was a direct response to DS's site in hatemail section. If this is not the general argument against phasers but just a reply to DS, my apologies, but DW wouldn't say one thing to DS and another to someone else so I assumed that it was a general argument.

Note the last part. The best that can be argued is that it would be "difficult" to knock down a Jedi/Sith, not impossible with a widebeam shot, given all the instances of Jedi/Sith in other situations.

Again though, how the hell does this all matter. I'll repeat again -- Vader and Palpatine would never engage with redshirts. Vader would be protected by his armor, and Palpatine would never get into a struggle with redshirts. If you want a hypothetical situation with random Sith/Jedi, fine, but it doesn't change anything in terms of ST v SW.

Brian

[Robert Walper]

Honestly, I really don't know why anyone bothers anymore trying to suggest Star Trek can defeat anything in Star Wars, in any context. I've been here for years now, and I've never seen a single arguement where Trek had any edge or victory. There's always a convenient way Wars wins or is better.

Of course, if anyone can submit any example otherwise, I'd be most interested and retract my asssertion accordingly.

[brianeyci]

Again, I am not arguing against Jedi/Sith being easily able to take down redshirts, or that Jedi/Sith could be easily taken down by redshirts. I'm just arguing against the idea that Jedi/Sith would be impervious to redshirts, and be able to walk through hundreds of redshirts unscathed. I'm not so sure why there is a resistance against thinking that widebeam would be more effective against Jedi than blaster fire, or that a continuous beam would be more effective than a single shot that blasters have, other than Jedi wanking. In general do you accept that a continuous beam and widebeam shot, lets say independent of ST, would be more effective than blaster shots? If you do, you can't deny that redshirts would have an easier time killing Jedi than most SW opponents, put your fucking anti-ST alarm aside for gods sake, the idea that redshirts can kill Jedi/Sith does not hurt the case for the Empire royally kicking SF's ass.

Brian

[brianeyci]

I've never seen a single arguement where Trek had any edge or victory. There's always a convenient way Wars wins or is better.

Duh, which is why I said that the redshirts vs Jedi/Sith is totally hypothetical and doesn't change the argument for the Empire winning.

Brian

[Crown]

It won't matter. Or did you think that the continuous beam would still be directed at them once it's already been deflected back to the source? Furthermore, your claim that it is exceptional is nothing but wishful thinking. Yoda was also able to deflect force lightning into a wall (with destructive effects on said wall) from Count Dooku in AOTC.

Being able to deflect Force Lightning is one thing. There is a great variation in skill in Jedi, and if we're not talking about the heavy hitters a continuous beam may be above their skill level. Jedi do not always deflect blaster bolts back towards their targets, it is not so sure a thing as you say, especially if two Type-II's fire on target.

No shit. There is also a great variation in 'skill' on the side of who is firing, supose to say that I said that the redshirt couldn't even aim from 3 feet away to hit the Jedi/Sith and backed it up with screenshots of Riker missing in Nemisis?

It's the same arguement your using; namely a stupid one. And better yet I would have canonical proof of my claims too!

So welcome to the real world moron, where we deal with things a little differently and even the playing field.

The point is that Jedi can absorb/re-direct/otherwise render harmless energy of far more destructive effects than a pussy-arse phaser, especially a phaser set on stun. :rolleyes:

You specifically mentioned the Qui-Gon incident, which shows that Jedi have thermal resistance. Claiming that Jedi can then deflect all energy is absurd. Jedi have been killed by blasters before, so there's at least one type of energy that some Jedi cannot deflect.

Nice side step idiot. While the affects of different types of energy are important (kinetic vs electrical), in this instance the 'energy' of a phaser vs force lightning applies the same way, so all we are concerned is about the magnitude. So if you could find the power output of a phaser vs blaster you might have an arguement.

It's called ducking. Dodging. Or otherwise avoiding something your pre-cognition tells you your lightsabre won't stop. Like Anakin avoiding Geonosian sonic blasts in AOTC.

So what. Widebeam from a Type-II has hit everybody in a room regardless of their position. Ducking or dodging is not a sure thing either, if it was no Jedi would have been killed by blaster fire. Nor is precog.

Nor is aim. See above.

Stupidity. The Jedi/Sith isn't going to stand there while being hosed with a continuous beam, the first part he deflects will be going straight back to the firer.

Not necessarily, reference all the times when Jedi deflect shit and don't deflect it directly back at their targets. And what the hell happens if two phasers with continuous beam go towards the Jedi/Sith? Three? Five?

Please see The Phantom Menance, with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan on the control ship.

Your 'arguements' are pittance, nothing more than evasion of the question because you are either too stupid to formulate the correct answer or you know it and too cowardly to admit it.

[Robert Walper]

I've never seen a single arguement where Trek had any edge or victory. There's always a convenient way Wars wins or is better.

Duh, which is why I said that the redshirts vs Jedi/Sith is totally hypothetical and doesn't change the argument for the Empire winning.

Brian

That's not what I meant. I know the Empire would steam roll the Federation. I'm talking about any Trek/Wars versus. Star Wars always wins, no matter what the matchup is. Whether it's Borg versus Jawa's, Fed ship versus Wars one, Redshirts versus Troopers, etc.

For example, "Q versus bored Storm Trooper". I bet the Storm trooper could be argued to win, easily. Let me illustrate:

Trekkie: "The Q are almost god like beings with impressive powers. They hurl starships thousands of lightyears in seconds, vanish and appear at will, kill and bring back people. Examples of their powers suggests a Storm Trooper would simply be vanished out of existence."

Warsie: "Oh yeah? Remember the episode where Q got decked by Sisko? Q was surprised, and even had a bloodly lip! Obviously he can be injured. We've never seen a Q survive a energy blast in Trek (because they're too intimidated by this bullshit "god-like" being). The Storm Trooper isn't going to take shit. He'll simply blast Q in the face. Q won't see it coming, and he can be injured by something as trivial as a punch. One dead Q coming up."

Trekkie: "..."

[brianeyci]

No shit. There is also a great variation in 'skill' on the side of who is firing, supose to say that I said that the redshirt couldn't even aim from 3 feet away to hit the Jedi/Sith and backed it up with screenshots of Riker missing in Nemisis?

It's the same arguement your using; namely a stupid one. And better yet I would have canonical proof of my claims too!

So welcome to the real world moron, where we deal with things a little differently and even the playing field.

Well fucker, do you accept that a widebeam shot or a continuous beam shot would be more effective against Jedi than single shot blasters? I'm not arguing for fucking redshirts dominating Jedi, I'm arguing against the notion that all Jedi would be impervious to widebeam or continuous beam fire you asshole.

Nice side step idiot. While the affects of different types of energy are important (kinetic vs electrical), in this instance the 'energy' of a phaser vs force lightning applies the same way, so all we are concerned is about the magnitude. So if you could find the power output of a phaser vs blaster you might have an arguement.

So just because something can deflect one kind of energy, it can deflect all forms of energy of the same magnitude? If that were true you could argue that hulls that absorb energy like in B5 should be able to withstand the same amount of kinetic energy. Holy fuck, the magnitude is not the only thing in consideration.

Nor is aim. See above.

I do not argue that aim would not be a factor dickhead. In fact, if a Jedi boarded Ent-E, he would probably kill everybody on it. Widebeam is never used as much as it can be, so in-character until some smartass figures out that widebeam would be the appropriate response to a guy who can deflect your shots with a lightsaber, many many redshirts would die. I am arguing that widebeam/continuous beam would be more effective than standard blaster fire against Jedi/Sith.

Please see The Phantom Menance, with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan on the control ship.

Please see Mace deflecting Jango's blaster shots when charging against him (IIRC, he didn't deflect Jango's shots directly back at him, correct me if I'm wrong).

Your 'arguements' are pittance, nothing more than evasion of the question because you are either too stupid to formulate the correct answer or you know it and too cowardly to admit it.

Your arguments are Jedi wanking and refute the utility of widebeam or a continuous beam shot. If it was not Trek, you would readily accept that a widebeam or continuous beam shot would be more effective against Jedi than a blaster shot. I am not arguing that redshirts would be effortlessly able to kill Jedi, or even have an easy time doing it. I'm saying that with enough redshirts with enough concentrated fire on a Jedi, the Jedi goes down. I don't see why this is so hard for some to accept given that Jedi have and do die regularly in the line of combat against blasters, and if it was anything other than Trek you would accept the continuous beam/widebeam argument. What a fucktard.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Warsie: "Oh yeah? Remember the episode where Q got decked by Sisko? Q was surprised, and even had a bloodly lip! Obviously he can be injured. We've never seen a Q survive a energy blast in Trek (because they're too intimidated by this bullshit "god-like" being). The Storm Trooper isn't going to take shit. He'll simply blast Q in the face. Q won't see it coming, and he can be injured by something as trivial as a punch. One dead Q coming up."

This argument ignores the fact that Q's don't have to be around to perform their feats, and that Q's can resurrect people from the dead, so other Q's would probably help a Q in need.

The best argument against the Q argument is that in the end, Q would not intefere in a war between SF and Empire because it is out-of-character for them to do so. Not too many people make the in-character/out-of-character argument or would rather argue technology (possibly because such an argument is qualitative but not quantative), but the ic/ooc argument is just as valid an argument as technological limitation.

Brian

[Robert Walper]

*snip*

Well, I could go on, but I have no intentions of hijacking the thread.

But I still stand by my overall point. Your arguement (however minor and overall irrelevent) favors Trek against Wars, therefore it will lose. I recall no arguement that has ever ended up with Trek "winning" in any sense. (this dismisses any argument that is obviously constructed initially to make Trek win (ie: galaxy class starship versus unarmed Storm Trooper stranded on deserted planet, etc)).

[brianeyci]

But I still stand by my overall point. Your arguement (however minor and overall irrelevent) favors Trek against Wars, therefore it will lose. I recall no arguement that has ever ended up with Trek "winning" in any sense. (this dismisses any argument that is obviously constructed initially to make Trek win (ie: galaxy class starship versus unarmed Storm Trooper stranded on deserted planet, etc)).

I don't see how you can "lose" an argument that widebeam or continuous beam fire would be more effective than blaster fire against Sith/Jedi.

Besides Walper, I've already "conceded" (if you can call pointing out something a concession) that Palpatine/Vader would never get into a fight with redshirts, so the argument is pointless overall.

Brian

[Robert Walper]

I don't see how you can "lose" an argument that widebeam or continuous beam fire would be more effective than blaster fire against Sith/Jedi.

Give it time. Seriously, I'd honestly be shocked if this thread yields a arguement favoring Trek. I've haven't seen one yet. Like I said, there's two types of arguements: scenarios ridiculasly favoring Trek, or ones where Wars wins. There's no in between (at least that I've ever seen).

[Crown]

No shit. There is also a great variation in 'skill' on the side of who is firing, supose to say that I said that the redshirt couldn't even aim from 3 feet away to hit the Jedi/Sith and backed it up with screenshots of Riker missing in Nemisis?

It's the same arguement your using; namely a stupid one. And better yet I would have canonical proof of my claims too!

So welcome to the real world moron, where we deal with things a little differently and even the playing field.

Well fucker, do you accept that a widebeam shot or a continuous beam shot would be more effective against Jedi than single shot blasters? I'm not arguing for fucking redshirts dominating Jedi, I'm arguing against the notion that all Jedi would be impervious to widebeam or continuous beam fire you asshole.

Yes, because of 'skill'. And I'm arguing that the 'skill' of the user makes it so that he/she will miss the Jedi/Sith by default. Just your arguement just reversed sides. Clever no? So if you are still going the 'skill' arguement, allow me to do so also. Unless of course you are willing to rub your remaining braincells together and try and form some kind of spark? So here we go; is the wide beam phaser outputting more energy than a SW stun shot (which don't affect Jedi?). If so, does it approach SW blaster power outputs, or Force lightning?

If no to the first; than a Jedi/Sith wouldn't be affected. If no to the second, then a Jedi/Sith wouldn't be affected.

Nice side step idiot. While the affects of different types of energy are important (kinetic vs electrical), in this instance the 'energy' of a phaser vs force lightning applies the same way, so all we are concerned is about the magnitude. So if you could find the power output of a phaser vs blaster you might have an arguement.

So just because something can deflect one kind of energy, it can deflect all forms of energy of the same magnitude? If that were true you could argue that hulls that absorb energy like in B5 should be able to withstand the same amount of kinetic energy. Holy fuck, the magnitude is not the only thing in consideration.

Had you have been able to pass fifth grade reading and comprehension, you would note that I said that exact same thing (I've highleted it in yellow for your puny little mind to look dumbly at the screen as you scratch your head like the highly advanced primate that I suspect you are). So now that you've done away with your shitty little strawman you little dickweed, you should conceed that Blaster bolts, Force lightning, phasers are all energy beams and not fucking kinetic energy, and so all we do care about is their magnitude (in this case).

Nor is aim. See above.

I do not argue that aim would not be a factor dickhead.

Fuck off ass wipe, you argued that 'not every Jedi/Sith is Vader !!!1111!!!'. So I'm going to argue that the trekie in question can't aim. Until you drop your 'skill' arguement, mine will remain

<snip> I am arguing that widebeam/continuous beam would be more effective than standard blaster fire against Jedi/Sith.

Then back your shit up other than 'not everyone is Vader !!11111!1!!'. Use something quantifiable other than skill you brainless gimp, and then I'll treat you like a somewhat intelligent being.

Please see The Phantom Menance, with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan on the control ship.

Please see Mace deflecting Jango's blaster shots when charging against him (IIRC, he didn't deflect Jango's shots directly back at him, correct me if I'm wrong).

Mace Windu: Should we inform the Senate that our abilities to use the Force have diminished?



The fact that you brought up one counter arguement to the plethora of examples in the movies and literature (TPM, RotJ, various EU books), is pathetic. The fact that you chose to use one where it is stated that their ability to use the Force has diminished just makes it hylarious!

Your 'arguements' are pittance, nothing more than evasion of the question because you are either too stupid to formulate the correct answer or you know it and too cowardly to admit it.

Your arguments are Jedi wanking and refute the utility of widebeam or a continuous beam shot.

I don't see how I'm 'wanking' anything when all I'm doing is bringing up proven Jedi abilities, and playing your own card of 'skill' against you. But by all means, show us more of your reading comprehension deficiancy.

If it was not Trek, you would readily accept that a widebeam or continuous beam shot would be more effective against Jedi than a blaster shot. I am not arguing that redshirts would be effortlessly able to kill Jedi, or even have an easy time doing it. I'm saying that with enough redshirts with enough concentrated fire on a Jedi, the Jedi goes down. I don't see why this is so hard for some to accept given that Jedi have and do die regularly in the line of combat against blasters, and if it was anything other than Trek you would accept the continuous beam/widebeam argument. What a fucktard.

Brian

I'm not going to conceed anything until I see something quantifiable (examples of thing not quantifiable include; your opinion, and your opinion on 'skill'). Untill that time moron, adios!

[brianeyci]

Yes, because of 'skill'. And I'm arguing that the 'skill' of the user makes it so that he/she will miss the Jedi/Sith by default. Just your arguement just reversed sides. Clever no? So if you are still going the 'skill' arguement, allow me to do so also. Unless of course you are willing to rub your remaining braincells together and try and form some kind of spark? So here we go; is the wide beam phaser outputting more energy than a SW stun shot (which don't affect Jedi?). If so, does it approach SW blaster power outputs, or Force lightning?

If no to the first; than a Jedi/Sith wouldn't be affected. If no to the second, then a Jedi/Sith wouldn't be affected.

Too bad fucker. Riker is a person who doesn't care about wargames. The skill argument is still valid, because not all redshirts shoot as badly as Riker's. Reference DS9 Siege of AR-559, when redshirts were hitting things five feet in front of them rather than missing like in Nemesis.

Had you have been able to pass fifth grade reading and comprehension, you would note that I said that exact same thing (I've highleted it in yellow for your puny little mind to look dumbly at the screen as you scratch your head like the highly advanced primate that I suspect you are). So now that you've done away with your shitty little strawman you little dickweed, you should conceed that Blaster bolts, Force lightning, phasers are all energy beams and not fucking kinetic energy, and so all we do care about is their magnitude (in this case).

Too bad asshole, you say that different types of energy are important, but say that "in this instance" only the magnitude of energy was important. I disagree with that, so my position is consistent and is not the same as yours.

Fuck off ass wipe, you argued that 'not every Jedi/Sith is Vader !!!1111!!!'. So I'm going to argue that the trekie in question can't aim. Until you drop your 'skill' arguement, mine will remain.

Not every redshirt is on the Ent-E and trained by a mentality that "wargames are not important." There are examples of redshirts firing better dickhead.

Then back your shit up other than 'not everyone is Vader !!11111!1!!'. Use something quantifiable other than skill you brainless gimp, and then I'll treat you like a somewhat intelligent being.

Again, not everybody shoots like Riker's redshirts.

Mace Windu: Should we inform the Senate that our abilities to use the Force have diminished?



The fact that you brought up one counter arguement to the plethora of examples in the movies and literature (TPM, RotJ, various EU books), is pathetic. The fact that you chose to use one where it is stated that their ability to use the Force has diminished just makes it hylarious!

Fucker, I never said Jedi would not usually deflect blaster shots towards their targets, just that it is possible a Jedi would not deflect a blaster shot towards a target so it is not a sure thing that a Jedi's deflection ability would protect him from a continuous beam shot.

I don't see how I'm 'wanking' anything when all I'm doing is bringing up proven Jedi abilities, and playing your own card of 'skill' against you. But by all means, show us more of your reading comprehension deficiancy.

Wanking is saying the Jedi would have just as easy a time with widebeam or a continuous beam shot as a blaster bolt.

I'm not going to conceed anything until I see something quantifiable (examples of thing not quantifiable include; your opinion, and your opinion on 'skill'). Untill that time moron, adios!

Well too bad. Think about it. A widebeam shot would have much the same effect as a dense cloud of blaster bolts flying towards a Jedi. A continuous beam shot would mean the Jedi would have to keep his lightsaber oriented a certain way, and have trouble if a second continuous beam shot flew towards him. Your refusal to concede that a widebeam or continuous beam shot would be more effective than a blaster bolt is moronic.

Brian

[Ghost Rider]

Small words of advice since haven't learned shit.

Q-U-A-N-T-I-F-Y

This means to actually use math to back up your fucking statements. So far you haven't many times, and in here you are asserting that Wide Beam=Many phaser shots.

And

POST OBJECTIVE PROOF

So far you are using your own fucked up circular logic, and this thing is quickly heading to lockdown because it's going nowhere except you parroting your own words and not REFUTING anyone.

[Crown]

Yes, because of 'skill'. And I'm arguing that the 'skill' of the user makes it so that he/she will miss the Jedi/Sith by default. Just your arguement just reversed sides. Clever no? So if you are still going the 'skill' arguement, allow me to do so also. Unless of course you are willing to rub your remaining braincells together and try and form some kind of spark? So here we go; is the wide beam phaser outputting more energy than a SW stun shot (which don't affect Jedi?). If so, does it approach SW blaster power outputs, or Force lightning?

If no to the first; than a Jedi/Sith wouldn't be affected. If no to the second, then a Jedi/Sith wouldn't be affected.

Too bad fucker. Riker is a person who doesn't care about wargames. The skill argument is still valid, because not all redshirts shoot as badly as Riker's. Reference DS9 Siege of AR-559, when redshirts were hitting things five feet in front of them rather than missing like in Nemesis.

Too bad? Why is it too bad? I gave you an opportunity to get out of this by discussing something other than 'skill' (I have once again higlighted the appropriate text), and you have chosen to ignore it. Oh well, guess then the Jedi stands absolutely still while the redshit in question hits everything else in the room but him. Kinda funny. It is a rather simple and elegant solution asswipe. Thankyou for giving it to me.

Had you have been able to pass fifth grade reading and comprehension, you would note that I said that exact same thing (I've highleted it in yellow for your puny little mind to look dumbly at the screen as you scratch your head like the highly advanced primate that I suspect you are). So now that you've done away with your shitty little strawman you little dickweed, you should conceed that Blaster bolts, Force lightning, phasers are all energy beams and not fucking kinetic energy, and so all we do care about is their magnitude (in this case).

Too bad asshole, you say that different types of energy are important, but say that "in this instance" only the magnitude of energy was important. I disagree with that, so my position is consistent and is not the same as yours.

Too bad? Yes I suppose it is, that you cannot differentiate between beam weapons and kinetic energy weapons. I supose you will have a little difficulty in life, but if you stay away from things like - oh I don't know - technology. You should be fine. And I must conceed to you my little cocknob; you are right, you have been consistent ... consistently wrong that is. Details, details.

Fuck off ass wipe, you argued that 'not every Jedi/Sith is Vader !!!1111!!!'. So I'm going to argue that the trekie in question can't aim. Until you drop your 'skill' arguement, mine will remain.

Not every redshirt is on the Ent-E and trained by a mentality that "wargames are not important." There are examples of redshirts firing better dickhead.

So. This is about 'skill' remember. You choose to arbitrarily limit the skill of the Jedi, I chose to arbitrarily limit the skill of the redshirt. I hardly see how calling me 'rude names' you little cock stain, is going to change that.

Then back your shit up other than 'not everyone is Vader !!11111!1!!'. Use something quantifiable other than skill you brainless gimp, and then I'll treat you like a somewhat intelligent being.

Again, not everybody shoots like Riker's redshirts.

Still on with the 'skill' tangent are we? Oh deary me ... Just a question for you, wonderless boy, when I say 'quantify' something 'other than skill', what exactly did you think I meant?

Mace Windu: Should we inform the Senate that our abilities to use the Force have diminished?



The fact that you brought up one counter arguement to the plethora of examples in the movies and literature (TPM, RotJ, various EU books), is pathetic. The fact that you chose to use one where it is stated that their ability to use the Force has diminished just makes it hylarious!

Fucker, I never said Jedi would not usually deflect blaster shots towards their targets, just that it is possible a Jedi would not deflect a blaster shot towards a target so it is not a sure thing that a Jedi's deflection ability would protect him from a continuous beam shot.

Why? The continous beam shot is ... well I don't quite know how to put this ... but *continuous*! The Jedi has all the time in the world to adjust his rebound aim, unlike with SW blasters where he/she has a fraction of the second. Moron.

I don't see how I'm 'wanking' anything when all I'm doing is bringing up proven Jedi abilities, and playing your own card of 'skill' against you. But by all means, show us more of your reading comprehension deficiancy.

Wanking is saying the Jedi would have just as easy a time with widebeam or a continuous beam shot as a blaster bolt.

And why shouldn't the Jedi have 'just as easy time with a widebeam or continuous shot'? Are you ever going to quantify that statement with something other than skill? Like, ever? No really I want to know. Please tell me, please!

I'm not going to conceed anything until I see something quantifiable (examples of thing not quantifiable include; your opinion, and your opinion on 'skill'). Untill that time moron, adios!

Well too bad. Think about it. A widebeam shot would have much the same effect as a dense cloud of blaster bolts flying towards a Jedi. A continuous beam shot would mean the Jedi would have to keep his lightsaber oriented a certain way, and have trouble if a second continuous beam shot flew towards him. Your refusal to concede that a widebeam or continuous beam shot would be more effective than a blaster bolt is moronic.

Brian

Oh for fucks sake! I ask you for once, once to quantify something with hard, cold, unrefuteable numbers and you don't. You just repeat the same arguement again, as if this means anything to anyone anywhere in the world! Congratulations. You are a troll!