Hyperdrive in Alpha Quadrant

[Agent]

I do not believe the Empire could make much use of hyperdrive in the Alpha Quadrant, for a very simple reason—it is uncharted.

Hyperdrive navigation relies on precalculated hyperspace routes, navicomputers loaded with starcharts, or hyperspace navigational beacons. None of these would be available in the Alpha Quadrant.

Sure, the Federation has starcharts, but how would the Empire get one? And even if they did—say the wormhole dumped them inside an inhabited solar system instead of interstellar space—I do not believe standard Federation charts would be adequate for hyperdrive navigation.

First, there is a lot of uncharted space on Federation star charts, even in the middle of Federation space. The Enterprise is always going on charting missions, and often runs into uncharted stellar phenomena. Another thread mentioned how the Federation has been concentrating on pushing their borders out and mapping later.

Second, even for the charted regions of space, Federation charts might not have the detail of SW charts. They certainly don't need the detail, because at warp speeds, it is easy to detect and avoid potentially dangerous phenomenon. Take a look at Voyager's stellar cartography lab. Voyager was designed as a scout ship, and even so, it took Seven of Nine's Borg technology and algorithms to upgrade the lab to the capability it had—and even that level of tech would be inadequate for hyperspace navigation charts at the distances that the Imperial battle plan relies upon. Now, the Imperials have their own mapping methodologies, which I will discuss in a moment. My point here is that Federation charts would be inadequate.

A third point, though arguable, in that hyperspace itself has textures and currents, which partially explains the large variations in hyperspace transit times. The Federation doesn't even know about hyperspace. Their charts certainly won't contain hyperspacial navigational data.

Of course, it is possible to build new starcharts and scout new routes. But it can't be easy to build a new starchart. Obviously, you can't use lightspeed observations. You have to rely on FTL sensor systems, and those don't have enough range. Really, the only option is to scout new hyperspace routes through the Alpha Quadrant. This requires specially-equipped scout ships, according to the Star Wars Technical Commentaries.

I haven't been able to find much information, but scouting hyperspace routes seems to work like this: 1) enter random hyperspace co-ordinates, 2) make the jump to lightspeed, 3) see if you survive.

Several books have discussed the importance of known hyperspace routes. One time, Luke's X-Wing made a random jump into deep space. He had no routes. He would have died except that he was located through the Force. In the NJO books, Pellaeon mentions a scouting expedition into the Unknown Regions. Anything called an "expedition" typically takes years.

Basically, hyperdrive is useless without maps, and there are no maps of the Alpha Quadrant. The Imperials could scout routes, but it would take a long time and they would be detected by Federation outposts and ships.

I really don't see a way around this.

[Praxis]

1) Buy maps from Quark. Give him something pretty.
2) It's called scanning, you know. It helps.

[Darth Fanboy]

Star Maps should be an availiable commodity, and if all else fails you try and capture a ship that has military issue ones with all the pretty confidential locations

[Terr Fangbite]

Last I checked probe droids can easily map out the galaxy.

[brianeyci]

At worst, it delays the Imperial invasion by a few years if you say that it takes years to go on exploring expeditions (assuming that is true). Doesn't change the overall argument for the Imps winning.

Brian

[Vympel]

Ever hear of probe droids? A telescope, for chrissakes?

Sure, the Federation has starcharts, but how would the Empire get one? And even if they did?say the wormhole dumped them inside an inhabited solar system instead of interstellar space?I do not believe standard Federation charts would be adequate for hyperdrive navigation.

Justify your claim that standard local charts (they need not belong to the Federation) wouldn't be "adequate" for hyperdrive navigation. This implies that hyperdrive travel is somehow something other than the plotting of a course and the avoidance of hazards along the way.

A third point, though arguable, in that hyperspace itself has textures and currents, which partially explains the large variations in hyperspace transit times. The Federation doesn't even know about hyperspace. Their charts certainly won't contain hyperspacial navigational data.

Since when does hyperdrive have "textures" and "currents"? The variations in hyperspace transit times (which aren't that large) can easily be explained by the course plotting differences that have to be made along the way depending on your point of origin and destination- i.e. the hazards or lack thereof in between the two points.

Of course, it is possible to build new starcharts and scout new routes. But it can't be easy to build a new starchart. Obviously, you can't use lightspeed observations. You have to rely on FTL sensor systems, and those don't have enough range. Really, the only option is to scout new hyperspace routes through the Alpha Quadrant. This requires specially-equipped scout ships, according to the Star Wars Technical Commentaries.

Again- why can't you just use probots and simple observation? Again- hyperspace travel's big conundrum is avoiding hazards in real space- i.e. "bouncing off a supernova", as Han put it.

I haven't been able to find much information, but scouting hyperspace routes seems to work like this: 1) enter random hyperspace co-ordinates, 2) make the jump to lightspeed, 3) see if you survive.

You can't possibly be serious.

Several books have discussed the importance of known hyperspace routes. One time, Luke's X-Wing made a random jump into deep space. He had no routes. He would have died except that he was located through the Force.

Considering that he was in a snubfighter, what relevance does this have? He obviously couldn't tell where he was, and didn't have the means to find his way back himself.

In the NJO books, Pellaeon mentions a scouting expedition into the Unknown Regions. Anything called an "expedition" typically takes years.

There is no connection between "expedition" and "years".

n organized group of people undertaking a journey for a particular purpose

And even if there was- what relevance does the Unknown Regions have to Federation space, which is only 8,000LY across?

[Agent]

Sure, the Federation has starcharts, but how would the Empire get one? And even if they did--say the wormhole dumped them inside an inhabited solar system instead of interstellar space--I do not believe standard Federation charts would be adequate for hyperdrive navigation.

Justify your claim that standard local charts (they need not belong to the Federation) wouldn't be "adequate" for hyperdrive navigation. This implies that hyperdrive travel is somehow something other than the plotting of a course and the avoidance of hazards along the way.

The two points you've omitted justify this claim. I will re-iterate them:

1) Federation charts are the most accurate charts covering Federation space, which is the invasion target. But even as the most accurate charts, they are incomplete and omit many spacial distortions and other gravitic, hyperdrive-affecting phenomena, as show on numerous Star Trek episodes.

2) Federation charts don't include roaming meteor showers and the like, which, according to Han, could screw up a hyperspace jump. Again, numerous Star Trek episodes feature planets and installations taken by surprise by these sort of phenomena.

A third point, though arguable, in that hyperspace itself has textures and currents, which partially explains the large variations in hyperspace transit times. The Federation doesn't even know about hyperspace. Their charts certainly won't contain hyperspacial navigational data.

Since when does hyperdrive have "textures" and "currents"? The variations in hyperspace transit times (which aren't that large) can easily be explained by the course plotting differences that have to be made along the way depending on your point of origin and destination- i.e. the hazards or lack thereof in between the two points.

I did say the point was arguable. In fact, it is the Babylon 5 universe, not the Star Wars universe, that has hyperspace currents. But my other two points stand. The Empire can't trust Federation charts, and can trust, say, Cardassian charts even less.

Of course, it is possible to build new starcharts and scout new routes. But it can't be easy to build a new starchart. Obviously, you can't use lightspeed observations. You have to rely on FTL sensor systems, and those don't have enough range. Really, the only option is to scout new hyperspace routes through the Alpha Quadrant. This requires specially-equipped scout ships, according to the Star Wars Technical Commentaries.

Again- why can't you just use probots and simple observation? Again- hyperspace travel's big conundrum is avoiding hazards in real space- i.e. "bouncing off a supernova", as Han put it.

Read and be enlightened: http://theforce.net/swtc/hyperspace.html#astrogation

You can't use direct observation, because 1) you can only see stars, not black holes or dark matter or meteor showers or comets or diffuse interstellar gasses that have a definite mass shadow in hyperspace; and 2) what you see is hundreds of years out of date and you have no way of knowing where they've moved to now.

As for probots...

I haven't been able to find much information, but scouting hyperspace routes seems to work like this: 1) enter random hyperspace co-ordinates, 2) make the jump to lightspeed, 3) see if you survive.

You can't possibly be serious.

I am serious. This is how it must be done. See http://www.theforce.net/swtc/galaxy.html#exploration

However, it can be done by probots in addition to special-purpose scoutships. I said that I hadn't been able to find much information; I've found more. Apparently, it would take only a thousand or so probots to map hyperspace routes throughout the Alpha Quadrant. That is easily achievable. The Deep Core, previously unmapped, was thoroughly mapped by several thousand probes over several years. The Alpha Quadrant is smaller than the Deep Core, so figure it would take about 1000 probes one year to fully map. Now, the Deep Core is particularly troublesome for navigation. But so is the Alpha Quadrant.

Based on the evidence of the Star Trek episodes, the Alpha Quadrant is notoriously unstable. Subspace is flaky, there are areas where warp travel isn't even possible, Federation ships run into spacial anomolies every other day, and there are nebulas everywhere. You can't tell me that hyperspace travel through this area would be easy. It won't be as bad as the Maw Installation, but navigation could easily be as hard as it is in the Deep Core.

And now, consider this. The Imperial fleet can only travel to systems that have been mapped by a probot. And considering how effective Federation sensors are at picking up spacial distortions, it seems reasonable to suppose that most probot incursions would be detectible. So, here's what happens:

A probot successfully jumps into a system, which may or may not be inhabited. It flies around the system figuring out where the inhabited planets, research stations, and space stations are, or whatever. This takes time. The Empire can't scan a system at a glance, they have to get pretty close to the planets. During the probot's recon, it makes several more microjumps to avoid long subspace flight times.

Let's say the system is inhabited. The Fed sensors will pick up the initial incursion and microjumps, and will then be able to pick up the probot itself, especially since it has to get pretty close to planets. The pattern would clearly be a recon pattern. Now the local Feds have an idea of Imperial probot capabilities. They know they've been scouted by an unknown, powerful alien race. They'll report this to the nearest Starfleet vessel, which could be only hours away, or as much as a month. Local security officials would start preparing for a possibly hostile first contact situation.

In the meantime, the probot jumps back to the main fleet. The Imps now know of one more inhabited system. They could attack that system immediately, and take it over. The defenders might still be preparing for an assault, but they would know an assault was coming eventually. The Imps would lose the "shock and awe" surprise factor.

Assuming the Empire chooses to immediately take over this system, the Imps would obtain starcharts and would learn about a bunch of other systems and outposts. But they wouldn't learn about secret military installations, unless there was a base on that planet that knew about the installations. And even then, the base would have to be taken and the computers sliced, assuming they weren't wiped.

They could then send probes to the known strategic locations. They would have to send more probots; Federation charts are useless for plotting safe hyperspace routes. But this would take a few days, and alert the very same locations that the Empire most wants to take by surprise. In the meantime, subspace distress calls would be traveling to nearby ships and Starfleet HQ.

You can surely see how this would make the defeat of the Federation much harder than previously assumed, though, of course, still doable.

Several books have discussed the importance of known hyperspace routes....

He obviously couldn't tell where he was, and didn't have the means to find his way back himself.

Pellaeon mentions a scouting expedition into the Unknown Regions. Anything called an "expedition" typically takes years.

There is no connection between "expedition" and "years". And even if there was- what relevance does the Unknown Regions have to Federation space, which is only 8,000LY across?

Yeah, okay. I withdraw those examples.

But for the rest of it: I'm right, and you know I'm right. All my assertions are supported; check the web-pages and episodes.

[Lord Revan]

he two points you've omitted justify this claim. I will re-iterate them:

1) Federation charts are the most accurate charts covering Federation space, which is the invasion target. But even as the most accurate charts, they are incomplete and omit many spacial distortions and other gravitic, hyperdrive-affecting phenomena, as show on numerous Star Trek episodes.

2) Federation charts don't include roaming meteor showers and the like, which, according to Han, could screw up a hyperspace jump. Again, numerous Star Trek episodes feature planets and installations taken by surprise by these sort of phenomena.

1) could you please Qoute a source for that. IIRC there is no case of starfleet omiting of any phenomena they know of (lack of knowllage is not proof).

2) As far as I know meteor shower is harmfull to craft exiting hyperspace (ANH novelization).

[Agent]

The two points you've omitted justify this claim. I will re-iterate them:

1) Federation charts are the most accurate charts covering Federation space, which is the invasion target. But even as the most accurate charts, they are incomplete and omit many spacial distortions and other gravitic, hyperdrive-affecting phenomena, as show on numerous Star Trek episodes.

2) Federation charts don't include roaming meteor showers and the like, which, according to Han, could screw up a hyperspace jump. Again, numerous Star Trek episodes feature planets and installations taken by surprise by these sort of phenomena.

1) could you please Qoute a source for that. IIRC there is no case of starfleet omiting of any phenomena they know of (lack of knowllage is not proof).

Of course Starfleet includes every phenomenon that they know about. It's the things they don't know about that could screw up a hyperspace jump. That was what I meant by "omit." And something they don't know about seems to crop up every other day. Well, every month at least.

2) As far as I know meteor shower is harmfull to craft exiting hyperspace (ANH novelization).

I assume you mean "not harmful." The Millennium Falcon dropped out of hyperspace early when they hit the meteor shower that used to be Alderaan. But you are right, the safety systems dropped them out of hyperspace in time to prevent the Falcon from being destroyed. The safety systems don't seem to work when star-sized masses are involved, though, otherwise the Falcon wouldn't be destroyed by bouncing too close to a supernova. I say "destroyed" because that is the clear implication.

So, the meteor swarms and such that infest space wouldn't destroy an Imperial ship, but would drop it out of hyperspace suddenly, causing minor repairable damage, and requiring a new course to be plotted. For relatively unknown areas, this takes a few hours, according to the novels. No big deal, though.

[Agent]

Of course Starfleet includes every phenomenon that they know about. It's the things they don't know about that could screw up a hyperspace jump. That was what I meant by "omit." And something they don't know about seems to crop up every other day. Well, every month at least.

And that is for only one starship, mind you. I assume other ships encounter strange phenomenon at a similar rate. The Alpha Quadrant is really dangerous for hyperdrive.

Here's more bad news. Because so many spacial anomolies—and they come in all flavors, some of which would affect hyperdrive and some of which won't—show up suddenly, no hyperspace route could be relied upon for very long.

So, the meteor swarms and such that infest space wouldn't destroy an Imperial ship, but would drop it out of hyperspace suddenly, causing minor repairable damage, and requiring a new course to be plotted. For relatively unknown areas, this takes a few hours, according to the novels. No big deal, though.

But in order to plot a new course, a new safe hyperspace route needs to be found to the destination. That means more probots, and another day or two of delay.

Luckily for the Empire, a safe route should remain safe for at least a little while.

As I said, this is a wrench in the works, but the Empire would still win eventually. It would just be more difficult, resource-intensive, and longer than previously expected.

[omegaLancer]

Of course Starfleet includes every phenomenon that they know about. It's the things they don't know about that could screw up a hyperspace jump. That was what I meant by "omit." And something they don't know about seems to crop up every other day. Well, every month at least.

And that is for only one starship, mind you. I assume other ships encounter strange phenomenon at a similar rate. The Alpha Quadrant is really dangerous for hyperdrive.

Here's more bad news. Because so many spacial anomolies—and they come in all flavors, some of which would affect hyperdrive and some of which won't—show up suddenly, no hyperspace route could be relied upon for very long.

So, the meteor swarms and such that infest space wouldn't destroy an Imperial ship, but would drop it out of hyperspace suddenly, causing minor repairable damage, and requiring a new course to be plotted. For relatively unknown areas, this takes a few hours, according to the novels. No big deal, though.

But in order to plot a new course, a new safe hyperspace route needs to be found to the destination. That means more probots, and another day or two of delay.

Luckily for the Empire, a safe route should remain safe for at least a little while.

As I said, this is a wrench in the works, but the Empire would still win eventually. It would just be more difficult, resource-intensive, and longer than previously expected.

No more Dangerous than the deep galactic core which the emperor had mapped by launching thousands of Probe Droids.

It Very likely that a simliar tactic would be used with a command ship launch thousands of droids to mapped every nook and cranny of the alpha quadrant in days...

[Vympel]

The two points you've omitted justify this claim. I will re-iterate them:

1) Federation charts are the most accurate charts covering Federation space, which is the invasion target. But even as the most accurate charts, they are incomplete and omit many spacial distortions and other gravitic, hyperdrive-affecting phenomena, as show on numerous Star Trek episodes.

So? Does this mean that they won't engage in hyperdrive travel as a consequence? Miscellaneous treknobabble distortions that may or may not affect hyperspace travel, I mean?

2) Federation charts don't include roaming meteor showers and the like, which, according to Han, could screw up a hyperspace jump. Again, numerous Star Trek episodes feature planets and installations taken by surprise by these sort of phenomena.

Roaming meteor showers? Name the episodes in question.

I did say the point was arguable. In fact, it is the Babylon 5 universe, not the Star Wars universe, that has hyperspace currents. But my other two points stand. The Empire can't trust Federation charts, and can trust, say, Cardassian charts even less.

They're a perfectly adequate starting point, and they certainly won't refuse to travel because of what *might* or might not be there.

Read and be enlightened: http://theforce.net/swtc/hyperspace.html#astrogation

I've read it. You missed this part:

During the Palpatine Era it was fashionable for starships to carry navicomputers, astrogation aids which greatly simplify the process of calculating a jump through hyperspace. Navicomputers contain at least a rudimentary database of navigational obstacles and destinations within the galaxy. Their primary value is that they enable ships to choose their own courses through interstellar space, rather than being restricted to common trade routes. For smugglers, rebels and other dubious individuals the independence provided by a navicomputer is extremely valuable. Of course the same is true of the Imperial warships and the bounty hunters who must pursue the renegades.

Anyway.

You can't use direct observation, because 1) you can only see stars, not black holes or dark matter or meteor showers or comets or diffuse interstellar gasses that have a definite mass shadow in hyperspace; and 2) what you see is hundreds of years out of date and you have no way of knowing where they've moved to now.

If the problem is exploration of another entire galaxy, then yeah. However, it is not- it is a military campaign against an extremely small power.

As for probots...

I am serious. This is how it must be done. See http://www.theforce.net/swtc/galaxy.html#exploration

Where in that link does it say what you claimed? Frankly, the reason I expressed skepticism was because it was so stunningly foolhardy a method.

However, it can be done by probots in addition to special-purpose scoutships. I said that I hadn't been able to find much information; I've found more. Apparently, it would take only a thousand or so probots to map hyperspace routes throughout the Alpha Quadrant. That is easily achievable. The Deep Core, previously unmapped, was thoroughly mapped by several thousand probes over several years. The Alpha Quadrant is smaller than the Deep Core, so figure it would take about 1000 probes one year to fully map. Now, the Deep Core is particularly troublesome for navigation. But so is the Alpha Quadrant.

Based on the evidence of the Star Trek episodes, the Alpha Quadrant is notoriously unstable. Subspace is flaky

Why should SW ships care about subspace?

there are areas where warp travel isn't even possible, Federation ships run into spacial anomolies every other day, and there are nebulas everywhere. You can't tell me that hyperspace travel through this area would be easy. It won't be as bad as the Maw Installation, but navigation could easily be as hard as it is in the Deep Core.

Again, why would SW ships care about warp travel? This comes back to what I said earlier. The Imperials do not know, nor would particularly care, about the number of "notoriously unstable" anomalies of whatever number are in the AQ- certainly not enough to impede their campaign- it's not like they would lose entire fleets to accidents and so refuse to move until they had omniscience of the area. There's also the notion that they only appear so common because the Federation- or more accurately- the Captain of one particular starship, goes around looking for trouble as is their mandate.

And now, consider this. The Imperial fleet can only travel to systems that have been mapped by a probot. And considering how effective Federation sensors are at picking up spacial distortions, it seems reasonable to suppose that most probot incursions would be detectible. So, here's what happens:

A probot successfully jumps into a system, which may or may not be inhabited. It flies around the system figuring out where the inhabited planets, research stations, and space stations are, or whatever. This takes time. The Empire can't scan a system at a glance, they have to get pretty close to the planets. During the probot's recon, it makes several more microjumps to avoid long subspace flight times.

Let's say the system is inhabited. The Fed sensors will pick up the initial incursion and microjumps, and will then be able to pick up the probot itself, especially since it has to get pretty close to planets. The pattern would clearly be a recon pattern. Now the local Feds have an idea of Imperial probot capabilities. They know they've been scouted by an unknown, powerful alien race. They'll report this to the nearest Starfleet vessel, which could be only hours away, or as much as a month. Local security officials would start preparing for a possibly hostile first contact situation.

In the meantime, the probot jumps back to the main fleet. The Imps now know of one more inhabited system. They could attack that system immediately, and take it over. The defenders might still be preparing for an assault, but they would know an assault was coming eventually. The Imps would lose the "shock and awe" surprise factor.

Ummm ... so? It's not like the Federation could actually stand up to an Imperial invasion fleet of any size.

Assuming the Empire chooses to immediately take over this system, the Imps would obtain starcharts and would learn about a bunch of other systems and outposts. But they wouldn't learn about secret military installations, unless there was a base on that planet that knew about the installations. And even then, the base would have to be taken and the computers sliced, assuming they weren't wiped.

They could then send probes to the known strategic locations. They would have to send more probots; Federation charts are useless for plotting safe hyperspace routes.

You are assuming your conclusion as a premise.

But this would take a few days, and alert the very same locations that the Empire most wants to take by surprise. In the meantime, subspace distress calls would be traveling to nearby ships and Starfleet HQ.

You can surely see how this would make the defeat of the Federation much harder than previously assumed, though, of course, still doable.

Most vs. debates do not predicate on one side coming in and having every advantage with the other side oblivious. No matter whether the Federation knows the Imperials are coming or not, they would still be ground to the dust with little effort at all.

But for the rest of it: I'm right, and you know I'm right. All my assertions are supported; check the web-pages and episodes.

Your entire argument rests on the assumption that "it might be dangerous, therefore they won't use hyperdrive". I don't see why that's the case, and no, I don't think you're right.

[Crown]

But for the rest of it: I'm right, and you know I'm right. All my assertions are supported; check the web-pages and episodes.

Your entire argument rests on the assumption that "it might be dangerous, therefore they won't use hyperdrive". I don't see why that's the case, and no, I don't think you're right.

"Asteroids don't concern me Captain, I want that ship" - Vader TESB

[KhyronTheBackstabber]

I assume you mean "not harmful." The Millennium Falcon dropped out of hyperspace early when they hit the meteor shower that used to be Alderaan. But you are right, the safety systems dropped them out of hyperspace in time to prevent the Falcon from being destroyed. The safety systems don't seem to work when star-sized masses are involved, though, otherwise the Falcon wouldn't be destroyed by bouncing too close to a supernova. I say "destroyed" because that is the clear implication.

So, the meteor swarms and such that infest space wouldn't destroy an Imperial ship, but would drop it out of hyperspace suddenly, causing minor repairable damage, and requiring a new course to be plotted. For relatively unknown areas, this takes a few hours, according to the novels. No big deal, though.

No, the Falcon didn't drop out of hyperspace early, they came out exactly where they were supposed to exit. It's the big shit, like planets, stars, and black holes you have to worry about in hyperspace, not little piss ant meteor showers.

[Agent]

As I said, this is a wrench in the works, but the Empire would still win eventually. It would just be more difficult, resource-intensive, and longer than previously expected.

No more Dangerous than the deep galactic core which the emperor had mapped by launching thousands of Probe Droids.

It Very likely that a simliar tactic would be used with a command ship launch thousands of droids to mapped every nook and cranny of the alpha quadrant in days...

Right. But the mapping of the core took years; check the links I posted. The Empire could throw more probes at the Alpha Quadrant and reduce the mapping time, but that would just serve to alert every Alpha Quadrant system and installation that much quicker, and there is minimum amount of time that mapping a single route would take. No way the AQ could be mapped in days.

[Agent]

1) Federation charts are the most accurate charts covering Federation space, which is the invasion target. But even as the most accurate charts, they are incomplete and omit many spacial distortions and other gravitic, hyperdrive-affecting phenomena, as show on numerous Star Trek episodes.

So? Does this mean that they won't engage in hyperdrive travel as a consequence? Miscellaneous treknobabble distortions that may or may not affect hyperspace travel, I mean?

…the hell? Did I say anything about not using hyperdrive? Of course the Empire will use hyperdrive, they just won't rely on Federation charts to do it. They will have to find and use safe routes on their own. I say "have to" because hyperdrive safety interlocks won't let them use unsafe routes, they'll get kicked out of hyperspace.

2) Federation charts don't include roaming meteor showers and the like, which, according to Han, could screw up a hyperspace jump. Again, numerous Star Trek episodes feature planets and installations taken by surprise by these sort of phenomena.

Roaming meteor showers? Name the episodes in question.

I can name one, that's all I need to name. There was an episode where a giant asteroid threatened to destroy a planet inhabited by billions. If the Federation charts included things like that, it wouldn't have been a surprise. Let's see…the title of the episode is Deja Q.

Read and be enlightened: http://theforce.net/swtc/hyperspace.html#astrogation

I've read it. You missed this part:

During the Palpatine Era it was fashionable for starships to carry navicomputers, astrogation aids which greatly simplify the process of calculating a jump through hyperspace. Navicomputers contain at least a rudimentary database of navigational obstacles and destinations within the galaxy. Their primary value is that they enable ships to choose their own courses through interstellar space, rather than being restricted to common trade routes. For smugglers, rebels and other dubious individuals the independence provided by a navicomputer is extremely valuable. Of course the same is true of the Imperial warships and the bounty hunters who must pursue the renegades.

Anyway.

You can't use direct observation, because 1) you can only see stars, not black holes or dark matter or meteor showers or comets or diffuse interstellar gasses that have a definite mass shadow in hyperspace; and 2) what you see is hundreds of years out of date and you have no way of knowing where they've moved to now.

If the problem is exploration of another entire galaxy, then yeah. However, it is not- it is a military campaign against an extremely small power.

Incorrect. The Federation is premised to be in another galaxy. See http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/. And, of course, navicomputers won't have extra-galactic information. They don't even have information for the Unknown Regions.

Based on the evidence of the Star Trek episodes, the Alpha Quadrant is notoriously unstable. Subspace is flaky

Why should SW ships care about subspace?

there are areas where warp travel isn't even possible, Federation ships run into spacial anomolies every other day, and there are nebulas everywhere. You can't tell me that hyperspace travel through this area would be easy. It won't be as bad as the Maw Installation, but navigation could easily be as hard as it is in the Deep Core.

Again, why would SW ships care about warp travel?

I guess I should have spelled it out for you. The Empire doesn't care about subspace or warp drive. But, they do—or should—care about spacial anomalies. And this is because many spacial anomalies have gravitational effects, which means a mass shadow, which means the anomalies interrupt a hyperspace jump and can destroy ships, even a fleet of ships (considering the size of a formation) if the anomaly is strong enough. It just so happens that subspace instability tends to cause spacial anomalies. Since there is a lot of unstable subspace in the AQ, there are a lot of spacial anomalies. Do you follow?

There's also the notion that they only appear so common because the Federation- or more accurately- the Captain of one particular starship, goes around looking for trouble as is their mandate.

Trouble finds him more often than he looks for trouble. Keep in mind that the Enterprise stops to check out every little anomaly they happen to spot. Other ships must encounter the same number of anomolies, but they choose to ignore them and continue on their merry way.

They can get away with that, because warp drive is relatively unaffected by gravity wells. Sure, maybe the Enterprise was pulled out of warp by that Dyson sphere, but even if it was, keep in mind that a Dyson sphere is several times more massive than an entire solar system, and is a fraction of the size. Anti-gravitons will stop a warp drive, but regular gravity? Hyperdrive-equipped ships are far more vulnerable.

And thank you for bringing this up. The Federation just gained a new weapon, as much good as that will do. They can build their own interdiction fields which they won't be affected by.

The Imps now know of one more inhabited system. They could attack that system immediately, and take it over. The defenders might still be preparing for an assault, but they would know an assault was coming eventually. The Imps would lose the "shock and awe" surprise factor.

Ummm ... so? It's not like the Federation could actually stand up to an Imperial invasion fleet of any size.

True, and I never said otherwise. My argument is simply that it won't be as easy as everyone is assuming, because of the implications that follow from the Alpha Quadrant being uncharted. The 100 Star Destroyer plan probably won't work, for example.

They could then send probes to the known strategic locations. They would have to send more probots; Federation charts are useless for plotting safe hyperspace routes.

You are assuming your conclusion as a premise.

No, my premise is that the Alpha Quadrant is unmapped by the Empire. That's not even a premise, that's a given. My conclusion is that the outlined battle plan will run into the snags I'm describing. The bit about the uselessness of Fed charts is a separate conclusion based on the implications of Star Trek episodes and hyperdrive theory.

Your entire argument rests on the assumption that "it might be dangerous, therefore they won't use hyperdrive". I don't see why that's the case, and no, I don't think you're right.

I don't think you know what my argument is. I hope I've cleared it up for you in this post.

[Agent]

So, the meteor swarms and such that infest space wouldn't destroy an Imperial ship, but would drop it out of hyperspace suddenly, causing minor repairable damage, and requiring a new course to be plotted. For relatively unknown areas, this takes a few hours, according to the novels. No big deal, though.

No, the Falcon didn't drop out of hyperspace early, they came out exactly where they were supposed to exit. It's the big shit, like planets, stars, and black holes you have to worry about in hyperspace, not little piss ant meteor showers.

Yes, you are right, I misremembered the scene. But I am not so much worried about meteor showers. And I'm not worried about star systems; they would almost all be charted unless they were hidden in a nebula or something.

I'm worried about random gravitational anomalies and other uncharted things that cast a planet-sized mass shadow, or more. That will block hyperspace travel; any fleet that runs into one has to explore and calculate a new route.

And I'm more worried about large distortions that can pull a fleet out of hyperspace without warning and tear it apart before the fleet can move to a safe distance or raise their deflectors. Federation ships don't really have to worry about that, though, because they can't get pulled out of warp so easily; see my other post.

[Ghost Rider]

I'm still trying to grasp...okay so in essence the scouting takes longer(if they don't find the Ferengi or someone else who wouldn't mind big money and large weapons on their backing).

And?

In the end...The Federation gets stomp by numbers and tech...it just takes more hours to find them.

[gamesguy]

The supernova quote is most definately not proof that SW ships have trouble with such large anomolies. A supernova is relatively diffuse, its gravitational pull is small for such a large volume.

A star is an entirely different story.

I submit Wraith Squadron where they go into hyperspace travel in detail. Essentially, there is 2 ways to get to a desired location.

1. You could plot a course STRAIGHT TOWARDS a star or a planet, and let the gravity of the star/planet pull you out. This is apparently the most common way for ships to get around.

2. You can time it so your ship drops out at the edges of the system, and then micro jump within the star system.


Apparently the only things really dangerous to hyperspacing ships are large asteroids and the like, which have a large enough gravitational force to pull a ship out of hyperspace, but pulls the said ship out too late for it to take evasive manuvers or raise shields.


Your anomoly of the week argument is unjustified, since the said captain goes around looking for trouble, it sometimes picks up anomolies on its sensors X LYs away, and goes to investigates it, thats entirely different from literally running into the said anomolies.



A simple way for the imperial fleet to get data would be to acquire a starchart, pick the nearest system, jump to the edge of the system, scan the said system, and conquer it/blow up all major installations. Then leap frog onto the next nearest system.


Since the federation only have a few hundred planets, a force of a thousand or so capital ships should be able to conquer the federation in a matter of days if not hours.

[Terr Fangbite]

Even if we take your claims that hyperdrive would be mute without days, months etc of scouting the territory, how does this even mean a chance for federation victory. You talk about federation ships being warned. Good, let the panzies get ready for a fight. Maybe it'll last another 8 seconds. The problem you fail to see is that even IF the empire can't depend on federation maps, they'll still kick the federation's butt because they have the speed, weapon, shield, number etc advantage of unimaginal proportions to the federation who see a third of an empires fleet as a thousand ships (including fighters and mostly dinky ships).

[Robert Walper]

At what point has it been suggested hyperdrive limits gives the Federation any type of practical advantage? It's simply being pointed out the Empire isn't simply going to walk in and control the galaxy in days or hours.

[Gustav32Vasa]

Even if we take your claims that hyperdrive would be mute without days, months etc of scouting the territory, how does this even mean a chance for federation victory.

Where does he say that the Federation win a war between the UFP and the Empire?

[Deathstalker]

The Empire doesn't need to map the whole AQ. All it needs to know is where the Earth and maybe a few other important planets are, and they are going to have that info a few hours after they capture their first Fed ship. Once the Fed resistance is crushed, the Empire can map at it's leisure. So some anomoly pulls ships out of hyperspace. They take a few minutes to recalculate and jump again. You can't tell me that Starfleet hasn't mapped everything within the confines of the member worlds and colonies. The Federation claims a lot more than it controls and has explored, but there is nothing there of military value for the Empire to be concerned with.

[Agent]

Apparently the only things really dangerous to hyperspacing ships are large asteroids and the like, which have a large enough gravitational force to pull a ship out of hyperspace, but pulls the said ship out too late for it to take evasive manuvers or raise shields.

Your anomoly of the week argument is unjustified, since the said captain goes around looking for trouble, it sometimes picks up anomolies on its sensors X LYs away, and goes to investigates it, thats entirely different from literally running into the said anomolies.

Federation ships can't run into anomalies in the same sense that an Imperial ship would; Fed ships aren't pulled out of warp by gravity wells. Hell, a ship went to warp inside Earth's atmosphere in one of the movies.

But for an Imp ship, the anomaly-of-the-week is a real concern. Maybe a hyperspace route doesn't happen to hit an anomaly, maybe it does, but they are out there, whether or not any ship goes looking for them. And, of course, there's all the roving ion/magnetic/gravity/electromagnetic storms show up on Star Trek episodes. If hyperspace routes have to go around a nebula—and they do—then they have to go around these too.

A simple way for the imperial fleet to get data would be to acquire a starchart, pick the nearest system, jump to the edge of the system, scan the said system, and conquer it/blow up all major installations. Then leap frog onto the next nearest system.

Since the federation only have a few hundred planets, a force of a thousand or so capital ships should be able to conquer the federation in a matter of days if not hours.

Imperial sensors aren't that good. From the edge of a system they can count planets and check habitability, and detect large-scale energy readings such as planetary shields. They have to get in close to find a major installation. This is supported by Chapter 14 of Specter of the Past.

[Techno_Union]

This is supported by Chapter 14 of Specter of the Past.

ANd the quote you're refering to is?