For JeanLuc Pichard (the user)

[Solauren]

I'm going to be a nice fellow user and let you in on a secret.

Star Wars technology is so far ahead of Star Trek, there is no one, with the possible exception of the God-races like Q and the Organions that could hope to fight them.

And there is evidence that the Emperor could kill Q or the Organions.

The disadvantage is the same as a sleeping caveman in a cage against 50 US marines that have orders to execute it. The caveman loses without even realising the fight started.

Remove the God-races from Star Trek, and you told toss the combined military forces of ALL OF STAR TREK (and I'm counting the Voth, the Borg, Starfleet, the Klingons, the Romulans, Ferengi, Gorn, Tholian, Kazon, Krenium with Timeship, the First Federation, the Doomsday machine, the Kelvan Empire from Andromeda, a resurrected Tkon Empire, a resurrected Iconian Empire, and ever one else) at a single Super Star Destroyer or Star Destroyer squadron, and the Star Destroyer squadron would slaughter them all without any effort.

Hell, single Acclamator Class Troop Transport from the Clone Wars, using the information from the Atttack of the Clones Incredible Cross sections (which is canon = same as movies) and one of the ultimate Star Wars Fan-wank sites stats for a Borg Tactical Cube, it would take the combined firepower of 7,000 Borg Tactical Cubes to take out the shields one Acclamator, or 823,560 Soverign Class Starfleet ships.

Meanwhile, the total firepower of that 20 - 30 year old Transport has enough firepower to take out that fan-wank Sovereign with half a volley, or 2 volleys to take out the fan wank Borg Tactical Cube

Think about it. 7,000 FAN-WANK Borg Tactical Cubes to crack a freaking Transport. The most powerful ship in Star Trek, and it takes 7,000 of them to take out a Transport.

A Star Destroyer is CONSIDERABLLY more powerful. Like at least 5 times more powerful or more. That would be 35,000 Fan-Wank Borg Tactical Cubes. Against non-wank cubes, the numbers increase to hundreds of thousands of cubes.

Star Wars has NO CHANCE in just about every military conflict.

Hell, with the right armaments, a Starfighter could take out a Borg Tactical Cube.


Go read the main site (http://www.stardestroyer.net). And I mean READ THE ENTIRE SITE.

Otherwise, the odds are, your Village Idiot title is going to become a BANNED title in the near future. Not a threat, just a prediction

[Lord Zentei]

Also to JLP:

Take a particular look at the following link: (linky)

Star Wars has NO CHANCE in just about every military conflict.

I think Solauren means that Star Trek has no chance.

Hell, with the right armaments, a Starfighter could take out a Borg Tactical Cube.

1 proton torpedo = 610 gigatons, you see. Almost 10000 times a photon torpedo. Yes, that is an outrageously high figure. It's still canon, though.

Go read the main site (http://www.stardestroyer.net). And I mean READ THE ENTIRE SITE.

Otherwise, the odds are, your Village Idiot title is going to become a BANNED title in the near future. Not a threat, just a prediction

Not banned for supporting Trek, mind you, but for spamming with old, old stuff that has already been done a million times. Note: I'm no mod, and far be it from me to impersonate one. Like Solauren, this is just friendly fellow user advice.

[Lord Zentei]

Star Wars has NO CHANCE in just about every military conflict.

You mean Star Trek has no chance.

Even if you're lazy, at least read the 5 min analysis.

Though I strongly reccommend reading it all, because it is very in-depth and you can learn about many more topics than the Empire kicking the Federation's ass.

Damn, we're stepping on each other's toes.

[DarkSilver]

Just one small point:

Some of the Empires noted in the OP, The Tkon and the Iconian, have been extinct for centuries, even millinia before we even see them in ST, thus we do not have a full understanding of those races might, we've seen only small isolated instances of them.

I do not think we could argue thier true might compared to the power of the Galactic Empire without a better understanding of these obviously dead empires.

though this takes nothing away from the OP, it's still duly noted and confirmed that any "modern" Trek military force would be unable to defeat the Galactic Empire, even if they were all combined.

Though I dare say the Planet Killer (From the Doomsday Machine) might be fun to see against a few Star Destroyer's....just for entertainment value of course.

[Rogue 9]

Especially if Stravo's information on the Doomsday Machine in StarCrossed turns out to be correct, meaning that it's an ancient Sith artifact from the Star Wars galaxy.

[The Silence and I]

Nitpick: That 97.835 MT explosion was within the vulnerable inner mechanisms--a similar order of explosion from without would have had zero effect.
That said, the Empire does not necessarily use antimatter based weapons, so it would not be prudent to assume the Doomsday Machine could neutralize any warheads heading for the mouth. Additionally we can assume there is ray shielding around the mouth as phaser fire was not even considered, but we cannot know for sure what yields that shielding can protect against. Therefore it would not be prudent to assume a stardestroyer would be unable to fire turbolasers down its gullet.

[Ghost Rider]

Nitpick: That 97.835 MT explosion was within the vulnerable inner mechanisms--a similar order of explosion from without would have had zero effect.
That said, the Empire does not necessarily use antimatter based weapons, so it would not be prudent to assume the Doomsday Machine could neutralize any warheads heading for the mouth. Additionally we can assume there is ray shielding around the mouth as phaser fire was not even considered, but we cannot know for sure what yields that shielding can protect against. Therefore it would not be prudent to assume a stardestroyer would be unable to fire turbolasers down its gullet.

And this yields what again...because out of the mass asumption we end up with?

Maybe maybe not...and oh yes, as for the Empire using antimatter weaponry, isn't it the height of foolishness to ASSUME that the only method?

We're talking weapons on a vast orders of magnitude more then a mere 97 MT and if we're going to leap to the completely faulty thought that only a weapon of antimatter will penetrate it, the Empire does have those to.

So where does that leave us?

One dead floating hulk of space junk.

[Stravo]

Especially if Stravo's information on the Doomsday Machine in StarCrossed turns out to be correct, meaning that it's an ancient Sith artifact from the Star Wars galaxy.

I'm particularly proud of that little bit of backstory. Managed to rehabiltate the Wesley Crusher character too. Jean Luc take a peak at Starcrossed, it does a decent job of depicting what would happen in a straight up fight between the two powers. In the end they're living on tricks and borrowed time.

[The Silence and I]

Err, did you miss-read what I said GR?

I said 97.835 MT is useless against the hull and only destroyed the Device because it was from within.

Then...

I said only antimatter is vulnerable to the deactivator field--hence non antimatter weapons won't be affected.

I said we cannot assume starwars uses antimatter therefore we can assume proton torpedoes/concussion missiles/suidical fighters would go down the gullet and explode causing the destruction of the device.

I said there might be ray-equivalent shielding around the mouth but we cannot assume it will stop turbolasers.

Hence we can assume starwars should have no trouble taking it out.

[brianeyci]

And there is evidence that the Emperor could kill Q or the Organions.

I hate this bullshit. Organians and Q do not get their powers from The Force. Organians would likely not intefere in any conflict and would probably sit just like they sat when the Klingons occupied them and the Emperor would have no need to destroy them, he would not know of their omnipotent powers and the Organians would not reveal them. If you get along with Klingon occupiers, you'd probably get along with stormtroopers as well.

Q would not intefere either, and if they chose to they could just sit in their dimension which cannot be reached except if you have special knowledge. Q is also one of the few ST races which actually can change the current timeline without creating an alternate timeline (humanity owes its existence to the Q). Unlike the 24th century Federation, time travel can be used by the Q easily to affect change (Riker's ancestors, Newton's apple, Woodstock all the result of Q's inteference no kidding). Even if Q can be killed by energy weapons, other Q can raise the dead or go back in time and thus reverse the situation without creating an alternate timeline. No, the Q would not intefere either, but if they did Empire would be toasted.

And again, the Organians and Q do not get their powers from The Force so the Emperor would not be aware of them. There's more than one way to be omnipotent.

Brian

[General Zod]

I hate this bullshit. Organians and Q do not get their powers from The Force. Organians would likely not intefere in any conflict and would probably sit just like they sat when the Klingons occupied them and the Emperor would have no need to destroy them, he would not know of their omnipotent powers and the Organians would not reveal them. If you get along with Klingon occupiers, you'd probably get along with stormtroopers as well.

you are aware that just because someone has the power to kill another being of comparable power doesn't necessarily mean they would, right? all the previous post was pointing out was that it's possible to do so.

[Lord Zentei]

And again, the Organians and Q do not get their powers from The Force so the Emperor would not be aware of them. There's more than one way to be omnipotent.

The fact that the Organians and the Q don't use the force does not mean that the Emperor would be unaware of them. Do you think he is only able to forsee the actions of other force-users?

Not that I want to place bets on the Palpy vs Q debate or anything, but the absence of Force-use in Q proves nothing either way.

[Solauren]

Umm, Brian....

Just cause they are not in the Force, doesn't mean the Emperor couldn't kill them if they got into a FIGHT

[Jon]

I think in all seriousness, Q could just click his fingers and make it so the mighty Emperor never existed, but that borders on Time Travel and no one likes that around here eh? Um, in a direct fight, well.. who knows, we have no idea what Q's extended ability is, aside from the fact he can do pretty much anything imaginable.

[Lord Zentei]

I think in all seriousness, Q could just click his fingers and make it so the mighty Emperor never existed, but that borders on Time Travel and no one likes that around here eh? Um, in a direct fight, well.. who knows, we have no idea what Q's extended ability is, aside from the fact he can do pretty much anything imaginable.

It's almost impossible to determine since we have no data on Q's limitations.

[General Zod]

Umm, Brian....

Just cause they are not in the Force, doesn't mean the Emperor couldn't kill them if they got into a FIGHT

actually . . .since the force surrounds all living beings, doesn't that mean the Q would technically be in it?even if they don't necessarily derive their powers from it? since they're clearly alive anyways.

[mr friendly guy]

Umm, Brian....

Just cause they are not in the Force, doesn't mean the Emperor couldn't kill them if they got into a FIGHT

actually . . .since the force surrounds all living beings, doesn't that mean the Q would technically be in it?even if they don't necessarily derive their powers from it? since they're clearly alive anyways.

Well all living things in the Star Wars universe.

Presumably with crossover battles we have to assume that their tech, powers etc work in each others respective universes unless there is a reason to assume they won't.

We could do it either 2 ways, 1) the Force exists in the Trek verse, but the inhabitants haven't figured out how to use it or 2) the Force works in the Trek verse, but isn't normally found there until the SW character enters it.

If you choose option 2 then the answer to your question would be no, the Q aren't part of the Force.

[General Zod]

We could do it either 2 ways, 1) the Force exists in the Trek verse, but the inhabitants haven't figured out how to use it or 2) the Force works in the Trek verse, but isn't normally found there until the SW character enters it.

If you choose option 2 then the answer to your question would be no, the Q aren't part of the Force.

the problem with option 2 is that it contradicts how the force is explained to work. since it's an energy field that surrounds all living things, and some individuals are sensitive enough to manipulateit, then it makes sense that it would otherwise exist in the trek verse the same as in wars if someone can use it in trek verse.

since the force isn't a power that emanates from an individual. just the ability to manipulate it.

[The Silence and I]

I might argue the force does not exist in startrek--at least not in the "normal" sense, because there are no force adepts anywhere. There are many, many billions of people in the galaxy and out of that entire conglomeration no one displays abilities inherent to force adepts. This is not a good arguement in and of itself as absence of evidence =! evidence of absence, however part two (TM) is stronger IMHO. Startrek has equivalents to force adepts--the Traveller, Wesley, possibly Gary Mitchel--and they do not have precog, they do not have enhanced strength, what they do have, in the case of the Traveler and Wesley in particular, is what you might have if you replaced the force with subspace--time and distance manipulation, increased understanding and knowledge of subspace and hence startrek's natural world etc.

This kind of more than normal thing happens frequently yet is never directly analogous to a force adept from starwars. Incidentally I think subspace has something to do with why so many races "evolve" into "pure energy" and develop funky powers (e.g. John Doe in Transfigurations).

I actually don't think the technology/funky abilities of either side would work in the other's territory, but to allow a verses I assume any force user entering startrek will bring the force with him (and what that means to subspace is anyone's guess), and trek would bring subspace to wars.

[General Zod]

I might argue the force does not exist in startrek--at least not in the "normal" sense, because there are no force adepts anywhere. There are many, many billions of people in the galaxy and out of that entire conglomeration no one displays abilities inherent to force adepts. This is not a good arguement in and of itself as absence of evidence =! evidence of absence, however part two (TM) is stronger IMHO. Startrek has equivalents to force adepts--the Traveller, Wesley, possibly Gary Mitchel--and they do not have precog, they do not have enhanced strength, what they do have, in the case of the Traveler and Wesley in particular, is what you might have if you replaced the force with subspace--time and distance manipulation, increased understanding and knowledge of subspace and hence startrek's natural world etc.

This kind of more than normal thing happens frequently yet is never directly analogous to a force adept from starwars. Incidentally I think subspace has something to do with why so many races "evolve" into "pure energy" and develop funky powers (e.g. John Doe in Transfigurations).

I actually don't think the technology/funky abilities of either side would work in the other's territory, but to allow a verses I assume any force user entering startrek will bring the force with him (and what that means to subspace is anyone's guess), and trek would bring subspace to wars.

it could simply be explained away as manifestations of the force in different fashions. jedi/sith manifestations of force powers are the result of thousands of years of doctrination and rote use. while beings in other universes/galaxies/etc don't manifest in the same way due to lack of indoctrination and exposure to jedi/sith dogma regarding how the force is supposed to work. course this is merely speculation.

[The Silence and I]

I don't think that argument holds though, because untrained unknowing force adepts (perhaps latent force user works better?) still have precog, which seems like super reflexes. No one develops this in trek's version of "force" users, or perhaps subspace users heh, so much subspace... ow.

[Darth Servo]

Just one small point:

Some of the Empires noted in the OP, The Tkon and the Iconian, have been extinct for centuries, even millinia before we even see them in ST, thus we do not have a full understanding of those races might, we've seen only small isolated instances of them.

We know the Tkon "empire" was wiped out by a single super nova. Childs play for the Galactic Empire.

[Rogue 9]

Especially if Stravo's information on the Doomsday Machine in StarCrossed turns out to be correct, meaning that it's an ancient Sith artifact from the Star Wars galaxy.

I'm particularly proud of that little bit of backstory. Managed to rehabiltate the Wesley Crusher character too. Jean Luc take a peak at Starcrossed, it does a decent job of depicting what would happen in a straight up fight between the two powers. In the end they're living on tricks and borrowed time.

You have reason to be proud of that one. Though actually, StarCrossed was the first time I encountered any mention of the Doomsday Device. (Yeah, I know. I'm not familiar with TOS at all, something that I need to remedy at some point. ) But when I read back on it, it fits amazingly well. If we accept the premise that the Star Wars galaxy is a different galaxy in our universe and that a wormhole could connect it with the Milky Way, then I could believe it.

[YT300000]

I think in all seriousness, Q could just click his fingers and make it so the mighty Emperor never existed, but that borders on Time Travel and no one likes that around here eh? Um, in a direct fight, well.. who knows, we have no idea what Q's extended ability is, aside from the fact he can do pretty much anything imaginable.

It's almost impossible to determine since we have no data on Q's limitations.

He got hurt by Sisko's punch, which he wasn't expecting.

[Petrosjko]

Another bit of advice for JLP is to remember that no thread actually stays on its intended course...