Projectile weapons

[Deutschland]

I know that some special forces unit within both the Empire and the New Republic use projectile weapons. Aka... Rifles, pistols, shotguns, and sub-machines. Now then does the Federation have any type weapon in their inventory. Nope, but you might say that a projectile in the Starwars univerevse has no use. It does, most armors used by troopers are used to lessen the effect of blaster bolts. A bullet will easily breach that armor. Hence the reason why those units use projectile weapons. Now picture this, a Imperial squad gets into a fire fight with some red shirts. The machine gunner lays down suppression fire, the rifle men open up and pick off targets while the grenadiers launch their frags, I'd say the fight would be over pretty quickly. Projectile weapons have higher firing rates, and they can also use special purpose cartridges. API (Armor penatrating incendiary), FMJ (Full metal jacket), JHP (Jacketed hollow Point), SP (Soft point), and HE (High explosive). There is also tracer rounds. I see the use of projectiole weapons being used in the war against the Federation. Only by some special units though.

[Darth Wong]

I don't know about the firing rates, unless you're talking about gatling guns.

The superbattledroid arm guns in AOTC demonstrate the firing rates of an automatic blaster weapon, and they're quite impressive. Seriously, a superbattledroid would be a kick-ass support weapon.

[brianeyci]

Who has the machine guns, the rifles and the mortars? Imps already have their own equivalents, and Feds don't have them so probably won't use them even if they can replicate them.

Doesn't matter anyway. SW weapons are designed to defeat SW opponents, doesn't mean they're stupid for not using projectile weapons.

Brian

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

It does, most armors used by troopers are used to lessen the effect of blaster bolts. A bullet will easily breach that armor. Hence the reason why those units use projectile weapons.

Wait, since stormtrooper armor are used to lessen the effect of blaster bolts, then a bullet will easily breach that armor?

Now picture this, a Imperial squad gets into a fire fight with some red shirts. The machine gunner lays down suppression fire, the rifle men open up and pick off targets while the grenadiers launch their frags, I'd say the fight would be over pretty quickly.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were saying that those machine gunners and riflemen are Imperial units, weren't you? Coz' I never see any of those in Trek.

I see the use of projectiole weapons being used in the war against the Federation. Only by some special units though.

Good point, but SW blasters are more than enough to penetrate (or burn through, if you wanna' be more accurate) those, uh, RED SHIRTS.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Seriously, a superbattledroid would be a kick-ass support weapon.

"kick-ass support weapon"?? Against Federation ground troops? Come on, Mike! Stop using euphemism, would ya?

[Junghalli]

Well, there is that super-sniper rifle from that DS9 episode. Remember, the one that uses a transporter to beam the bullet directly into the victim (BTW I guess that means that kinetic energy is preserved in the process of disintegration and reintegration... interesting).
I figure if SW and ST have given up projectile weapons it's probably because energy weapons are superior somehow. In my own sci fi universe I make it so that energy weapons have a lower refire rate than a machine gun, but have much longer range and are so powerful that getting hit with one of the higher-end rifles is almost like getting hit with a small grenade.

[brianeyci]

Someone mentioned this in a thread not too long ago on OSF, I'm too lazy to search/quote it so here is paraphrased. First comes uber armor. Then comes uber weapons. Then uber armor. Then uber weapons. Eventually the weapons get powerful enough so that wearing uber armor is stupid. So somebody stops wearing the uber armor. Then after a time, nobody wears uber armor and uber weapons are toned down to be just enough to kill a man not wearing the uber armor.

Trek can create effective armor against projectile weapons. See ST:V, where they field sort of a riot shield against the farmer's gatling gun. However they've seemed to forgot the concept of armor and helmet entirely, and this was a special situation where they expected projectile weapons. Also, you can make a personal forcefield against projectile weapons based on your communicator badge, however again since we never see this used against energy weapons it seems that energy weapons render personal forcefields useless for some reason. Perhaps its just stupidity, or perhaps ST personal forcefields can't resist a phaser blast so there's no point.

Brian

[Striderteen]

It does, most armors used by troopers are used to lessen the effect of blaster bolts. A bullet will easily breach that armor. Hence the reason why those units use projectile weapons.

Actually, EU sources indicate that projectile weapons need to use explosive AP rounds to penetrate Stormtrooper suits.

[Deutschland]

THere are some sources that mention the use of projectile weaponary. THere was a a rebel unit on Endor that used projectile weapons. In the Essential Guides to Weapons and Techonogiles. It shows projectile weapons and even explains their uses in the Starwars' universe. I'm not trying to say that projectile weapons are more powerful I'm just saying that they have a use in Scifi still.


Some examples are that projectile weapon leave no light trace. When a blaster or pahser is fired, you can tell which direction it came from. If you have a silenced rifle firing say a 165 Grain .30-06cal projectile. It can do some damage. There are pro and cons to each weapon. Blasters and phasers can easliy hold more ammo, but projectile weapons can defeat most armor and shield types. It's because the techonogily is designed around defeating enegry weapons.

My appilaction of projectile weapons are for special forces, when you have to keep a low profile, leave little to no trace you were there, and if the mission requires it...takle out a target fast and quitly.


PS I was US Army Air Borne and other than being a Scifi fan, I'm a firearms instructor and a firearms collector. SO I try to mix my hobbies.

[Batman]

THere are some sources that mention the use of projectile weaponary. THere was a a rebel unit on Endor that used projectile weapons. In the Essential Guides to Weapons and Techonogiles. It shows projectile weapons and even explains their uses in the Starwars' universe. I'm not trying to say that projectile weapons are more powerful I'm just saying that they have a use in Scifi still.

Who exactly denied that?

Some examples are that projectile weapon leave no light trace. When a blaster or pahser is fired, you can tell which direction it came from.

Enter the Xerrol Nightstinger sniper blaster rifle which fires an invisible bolt.

If you have a silenced rifle firing say a 165 Grain .30-06cal projectile. It can do some damage.

Not to someone wearing Wars armor.

There are pro and cons to each weapon. Blasters and phasers can easliy hold more ammo, but projectile weapons can defeat most armor and shield types.

No they can't.

It's because the techonogily is designed around defeating enegry weapons.

And ramming attacks, space debris going at reasonable fractions of c, space debris going multipes of c when you're at Warp-does the term 'particle shield' mean anything to you?

My appilaction of projectile weapons are for special forces, when you have to keep a low profile, leave little to no trace you were there, and if the mission requires it...takle out a target fast and quitly.

Which you can't do when you're incapable of hurting the target.

PS I was US Army Air Borne and other than being a Scifi fan, I'm a firearms instructor and a firearms collector. SO I try to mix my hobbies.

I'd brush up on my SciFi knowledge then if I were you.

[ANGELUS]

projectile weapons can defeat most armor and shield types.

I remember this episode from TNG where Worf and his son were traped inside the hollodeck (I believe the name of the episode was a fistful of Datas or something like that). Worf used his communicator badge to improvise a force field that stopped bullets from his enemies. Now, this was an improvised forcefield, and it was made by a security officer that doesn't have much of a knowledge in science. Even Worf was able to create this kind of force field in a couple of hours, a force field that stopped bullets pretty well.

You can't say that they can defeat most shield types. They would have to be very speciallized projectiles, not just any kind of them.

Besides, even now we have bullet proof vests. I'm sure that both the Imperials and the Feds can come up with something like them.

And even if you were right and the stormtrooper armors weren't able to stop projectiles, then the rebells would have guns as a part of their own troopers' reglamentary equipement.

[Bounty]

However they've seemed to forgot the concept of armor and helmet entirely

Second guy from the left.

[YT300000]

I know that some special forces unit within both the Empire and the New Republic use projectile weapons. Aka... Rifles, pistols, shotguns, and sub-machines. Now then does the Federation have any type weapon in their inventory. Nope, but you might say that a projectile in the Starwars univerevse has no use. It does, most armors used by troopers are used to lessen the effect of blaster bolts. A bullet will easily breach that armor.

Oh, you mean just like they did in Survivor's Quest? (Only a direct hit in the eyepiece went through, everything else just bounced off or was embedded in the stormtrooper armour).

[Batman]

However they've seemed to forgot the concept of armor and helmet entirely

Second guy from the left.

Ah yes. A pic from TMP to refute a comment directed at TFF. How brilliantly pointless.

[brianeyci]

A good question is where did these helmets go. Now Sulu calls these guys "Agents" in ST:III. So... Section 31 anybody?

Brian

[Darth Servo]

However they've seemed to forgot the concept of armor and helmet entirely

Second guy from the left.

Nice protection of vital organs from the front although the face is completely unprotected. A shot from the side wouldn't have any trouble either. Its scarry that modern police officers have better protection than the Federation's finest.

[brianeyci]

Nice protection of vital organs from the front although the face is completely unprotected. A shot from the side wouldn't have any trouble either. Its scarry that modern police officers have better protection than the Federation's finest.

Methinks the armor is entirely ceremonial. We only see them in TMP and on Earth chasing Admiral Kirk. How useful would that armor be against a phaser? There's no way of knowing.

And, didn't modern police officers learn by experience that having a bulletproof vest protect the sides as well as the front is just as important? I remember a documentary that focused on bulletproof vest developments, a police officer walked through a door and got blasted by a shotgun on the side at point-blank range, that's what started the flurry to have kevlar on the side. Perhaps the Fed's "Agents" just don't get into a lot of firefights.

Brian

[Deutschland]

Hey BATMAN, I was talking about people. Not ships. Rifles, pistols, and shotguns are man portable wepaons. Not crew served weaponbs on a starship. Second. I was using the Starwars Essential guide to weapons and technology as my source of information. Not star trek. I've just noticed that in star trek I've never seen a projectile weapon. And why the hell are you qouting my occupation. I said that a some insight to my reason for this topic not to make myself God of the board. I work with firearms. I collect firearms. But I also like scifi. That's the the reason as to why I try to mix the two. i wasn't bashing anyone's idea.


ANGELUS, you weren't an pain like batman. And for that I respect your opinions. As to the episode where worf was cought on the holodeck; Yes, he did create the forcefield that defeated bullets. But that was a deviece made right there on the stop. I'm trying to refer to standard issue equipment. Stroomtrooper amrour is designed to project the wearer from both projectile and enegry wepaons. But there are give and takes with the design. With projectile weapons, you can use a varying amount of calibers. If I used a 12X99mmAPI (.50cal BMG) round on a stromtrooper. It will surly kill him. It's that standard Anti-Material Round used by snipers. We used that round to disable vehicals like trucks, jeeps, and even light armored personal carriers. But if I use a .22LR (used for mouse and rat hunting) round on a stroomtrooper. It would do little to nothing.

Also ANGELUS the reason that firearms (projectile weapons) are not common with in the starwars military is because of a simple factor. The sytle of war and also ammo. The military sytle of combat within the starwars universe uses enegry weapons. It's because of the technology. A blaster is more powerful than a firearm. Also that the soldier can carry more ammo for his issued blaster. 100 shots for a blaster is smaller than a 30 round mag for my M4 Carbine. It's been that way for over 25,000 years. Firearms are still made on worlds were blaster are outlawed. Also for uses that aren't that comman. Assassianation. Hence my whole reason for the use by special forces. It's cannon in starwars that some units use projectile weapons. And as to your emark about bullet proof vest, yes. Both the Federation and Empire canb make them. But that the problem right there. They have to make them and ship them out to their frontline units. Supply is a big part of what manke and breaks wars. Not just conflict alone. Once again why I said special forces.

ANGELUS it's been fun debating with you.

Stroomtrooper armor is pretty though. It's been cited that i can take the full impact of a staff being thrown by a driod. Which flung at at a very high rate of speed.

"Qorl stood inside the training chamber holding a wicked-looking spear in his black-wrapped left hand. His droid replacement gripped the gleaming shaft with enough force to dent the metal."
...
"He cocked his droid arm back - and hurled the deadly weapon ..."
"Norys slammed into the wall, his helmet ringing against the hard metal bulkhead. His vision sparkled with impending unconsciousness."
...
"He looked down at his chest in amazement and saw only a nick in the white armor where the spear had struck."

That came from Mr. Wong's site.

He did state that the staff lifted the man off his feet. i will agree there. But a staff ballisticily is different than a modern day projectile. The wiegth of the object could've helped in throwing that man back. It's the same as if I throw a 10lb bag at you at over 100 feet per second. Your'e gonna fall. Also the force of the impact was spread out. Yes, the staff has a small surface area, but it's largere than that of a bullet.

If I used a steel core cooper cased 9X19mm Luger round. It can go through kevlar. Infact FN (a firearm company for Belguim) has released a new round 5.7X28mmFMJ. It is stated that the round will peirce kevlar at 200mm. and Level III Strike plates at 100mm. And that round is smaller than a 9X19mm Luger round (9X19mm is the round used by most police and also by the military for it's pistols.)

The metals used in a bullet also make or break it. if i used a lead tip round to take out a armored suspect. It wouldn't work. The lead is soft. It will make the round musroom once it hits a hard target. But if I used a Sttel core cooper cased round. It will not mushroon once it strikes a hard target. It will go through with a less deformed shape. There are different bullets for different targets. If you ever go to a sporting goods shop, ask the sotre person working at the counter what is the difference between Full metal jacket, soft point, and hollow point.

The point of bullet proof armor is not to make bullets bounce off, it's to ctach them and slow them down before the bullet strikes the target. There is something called hydroshock damage. It's is the damage caused by the bullet transferring it's enegry to the target. That enegry is what causes the damage to the body. The bullet proof armor ctaches and abosre the negery so it does not transfer to the target's body. If you are hit while wearing a bullet proof vist. You'll still get knocked down. And also have a broken rib or two. That is what happens when you are hit with standard ammo. Military ball ammo isn't made to penatrate armor because of the Geneva Conventions. But civilian and police ammo is.

Current ammo on the market today can defeat most armor. It's just that some cities don't allow it for sale. Also, most armor is designed to stop a certain group of calibers. I picture that Stroomtrooper armor is much the same way. But there are calibers that are designed to go trhough armor. And that also has been stated in the Starwars Essential guide to weapons and technology book.

But I rest my case. I'm tired and Everyone has the right to their own opinions. I believe that bullets have a place in the military tactic os scifi. Though limited, it's still there.

Like i said. I'm into firearms and also scifi. Hence why I try to mix the two.

[Lord Revan]

Nice protection of vital organs from the front although the face is completely unprotected. A shot from the side wouldn't have any trouble either. Its scarry that modern police officers have better protection than the Federation's finest.

Methinks the armor is entirely ceremonial. We only see them in TMP and on Earth chasing Admiral Kirk. How useful would that armor be against a phaser? There's no way of knowing.

And, didn't modern police officers learn by experience that having a bulletproof vest protect the sides as well as the front is just as important? I remember a documentary that focused on bulletproof vest developments, a police officer walked through a door and got blasted by a shotgun on the side at point-blank range, that's what started the flurry to have kevlar on the side. Perhaps the Fed's "Agents" just don't get into a lot of firefights.

Brian

the security guards in TUC have that armor.

[Deutschland]

YT300000 I like you picture of the M240 Gulf GPMG. Yes it does beat the M60 in everyway. It's lighter, it has a quick change barrel, easier to load tha damn belt, and it also shoots the same caliber 7.62X51mm (.308 Winchester). I miss my Gulf, I wish that I could take home but the Army said no. Those were the days.

[Deutschland]

Lord raven I know of that event. The Swat officer walked through the door way and was popped on the side with 12Ga 00 buck. That is why Kevlar now has the side panels.

[Lord Revan]

snip

the staff in questio was fucking spear if an armor resist a spear that thrown with such force it can throw a man against a wall and knock the wind out of him and only make dent in the armor it's safe to assume that the armor can resist an .50 cal bullet

[Batman]

Hey BATMAN, I was talking about people. Not ships.

You were talking about shield technology. That includes ships. Since there's no evidence personal shields work on different principles than vehicle ones, those were perfectly valid examples.

I was using the Starwars Essential guide to weapons and technology as my source of information. Not star trek.

Where pray tell does the EGWT talk about phasers?

And why the hell are you qouting my occupation. I said that a some insight to my reason for this topic not to make myself God of the board. I work with firearms. I collect firearms. But I also like scifi. That's the the reason as to why I try to mix the two. i wasn't bashing anyone's idea.

No, you merely evidenced a certain lack of knowledge of the SciFi you try to debate, which is what I pointed out.

As to the episode where worf was cought on the holodeck; Yes, he did create the forcefield that defeated bullets. But that was a deviece made right there on the stop.

Showing that producing a bullet-stopping shield is ludicrously easy.

I'm trying to refer to standard issue equipment. Stroomtrooper amrour is designed to project the wearer from both projectile and enegry wepaons. But there are give and takes with the design. With projectile weapons, you can use a varying amount of calibers. If I used a 12X99mmAPI (.50cal BMG) round on a stromtrooper. It will surly kill him

And you know that because?

It's cannon in starwars that some units use projectile weapons. And as to your emark about bullet proof vest, yes. Both the Federation and Empire canb make them. But that the problem right there. They have to make them and ship them out to their frontline units.

What part of StorTrooper armor didn't you understand?

He did state that the staff lifted the man off his feet. i will agree there. But a staff ballisticily is different than a modern day projectile. The wiegth of the object could've helped in throwing that man back. It's the same as if I throw a 10lb bag at you at over 100 feet per second. Your'e gonna fall. Also the force of the impact was spread out. Yes, the staff has a small surface area, but it's largere than that of a bullet.

And you know that because? And unless I'm very much mistaken that was a spear. Those tend to be rather pointy, you know.

If I used a steel core cooper cased 9X19mm Luger round. It can go through kevlar.

Everything can go through kevlar if there is little enough of it. Can it penetrate a bulletproof vest and if so at what distance?

Infact FN (a firearm company for Belguim) has released a new round 5.7X28mmFMJ. It is stated that the round will peirce kevlar at 200mm.

So can an arrow if there is only a single layer. How much kevlar?

and Level III Strike plates at 100mm

I can only assume you meant 100m, as no company is stupid enough to advertize the ability of its ammunition to do so at a range of less than 4 inches.

And that round is smaller than a 9X19mm Luger round (9X19mm is the round used by most police and also by the military for it's pistols.)

Which improves its performance against armor as the impact area is much smaller. I thought you knew about firearms.

SNIPPY horribly spelled lecture about firearms nobody asked for*
Military ball ammo isn't made to penatrate armor because of the Geneva Conventions. But civilian and police ammo is.

Complete garbage. The reverse, actually. Police doesn't want high penetration except in special circumstances, hence them using JHP where they're allowed to. Same for civilian ammunition. Because, you see, the ones who regularly WILL have to defeat body armor are the military (who, incidentally, are forbidden from using JHP, not armor piercers. Hence workarounds like the tumbling M193 bullet and such). Military 'ball' rounds are semi-AP, and thus don't work too well against unarmored insurgents. And they're not ball rounds. They're FMJ.
I thought you knew about firearms.

Current ammo on the market today can defeat most armor.

Totally meaningless statement. What type of ammunition can defeat what amount of armor?

It's just that some cities don't allow it for sale. Also, most armor is designed to stop a certain group of calibers.

No kidding. You mean like individual body armor is meant to protect against manportable weapons? I'M shocked. No, really.

I picture that Stroomtrooper armor is much the same way. But there are calibers that are designed to go trhough armor. And that also has been stated in the Starwars Essential guide to weapons and technology book.

And your point is?

[Gunhead]

Bats, are you sure that bullet stopping shield wasn't just some holodeck gimmick? Other than that you're pretty much on the mark.

Oh, btw best high threat bullet proof vests stop an 30-06 AP round at point blank range. The other thing is that hydroshock only happens if you hit the brain. Other human tissues just don't have that much water in them, and they are elastic. You have to stretch them beyond their braking point to do permanent damage outside the hole the bullet does when it hits you. Trouble is that bullets pass through before they deliver enough of their energy to do that. Hollow nosed and soft tipped bullets of course deliver more of their energy and create bigger wound channels.

Bullet wound ballistics 101

-Gunhead

[Batman]

Bats, are you sure that bullet stopping shield wasn't just some holodeck gimmick?

Not at all. As a matter of fact I'm usually one of thwe people arguing it WAS.
However, Deutschland seemed to accept it but argue it wasn't applicable because it wasn't 'standard equipment'. I simply pointed out what building a KE/momentum shield under those circumstances meant.

The other thing is that hydroshock only happens if you hit the brain.

As far as I'm concerned hydroshock is a myth, period.