Business Wars/Ferengi vs. Hutts

[Darth Fanboy]

Which race do you feel is more successful in "shady economics", Ferengi or Hutts? I really don't know, while the Ferengi are obviously quite notorious in their own right I think the hutts have more 'stones for business' so to speak which gives them an advantage.


Hey what the hell why don't we do a scenario.

A group of Ferengi vs. a group of Hutts, both are given comparable amounts of resources as sort of a start up investment. Which group:

-becomes successful quicker
-eventually becomes more successful overall
-has the best chances of dealing with the authorities

There is an "other" option in the poll so that we don't exclude anyone who may or may not be superior, but I went ahead and went with the two more prominent species stereotypes.

[Darth Fanboy]

Oh bloody hell I accidentally put it in PSW instead of VS. I am shamed

*committs seppuku with a frisbee*

[Trytostaydead]

It always seemed liked the Ferengis were two-bit conmen.

[Vympel]

Moved.

[Darth Fanboy]

Vympel j00 are the man. your first appearance in UPF shall be one of honour.

As for the Ferengi's being Two bit and Common, I can only say that even a seemingly small time guy like Quark dealt in some heavy stuff from time to time. also, not every Hutt is as fat/phat as Jabba.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

You got to give the Ferengi credit: they border on the most powerful nation in near space, it's communist, but they still manage to make a profit.

[Gunhead]

I would never ever give a ferengi credit, not if my life depended on it... Specially if my life depended on it.

I'm siding with the Hutts anyway, mostly because they can hire Mr. Fett, and the ferengi can't for obvious reasons.

-Gunhead

[harbringer]

I'll bite I think the hutts would have trouble with the law unless they can buy them off, but otherwise have the cruelty survivability and experience to win this.

[Petrosjko]

I voted Ferengi, but that's contingent on the nature of the scenario. If they're starting out basically with no resources beyond a quantity of cash, the Hutts would have more difficulty because by and large they operate from old, well-established networks. The Hutt clans have operated for millennia, and stripped of that comfort zone and forced to build new networks on the fly? They probably could do it, but they'd be behind the curve. The Ferengi already work like that, so this scenario is to their advantage.

Of course, the group that ends up with all of boths sides' money in the end is the liability lawyers, the most ruthless alien species ever spawned, so I should've voted 'other'. Ah well.

[Darth Wong]

The Ferengi are highly accomplished at the art of dishonest business dealings. The Hutts, however, have a stranglehold on organized crime in the Outer Rim of their galaxy.

Given the scenario where they both start out with "comparable resources", which I take to mean that neither group has an intrinsic advantage, the Hutts' propensity for murder will mean that they overcome the Ferengis, one way or another.

[brianeyci]

I vote Ferengi, but only because I've seen a lot more Ferengi than Hutt. Quark, a small-time bar owner, dealt in weapons by the thousands and contraband.

Also, don't think all Ferengi are cowardly Quark-types who won't kill to seal a deal. Quark got one of his Ferengi friends who was a mercenary/assassin type in DS9 to do the dirty work, and when Ferengi first showed up in TNG they were pretty mean. Not all Ferengi are pussies like Quark, and if they are they'll hire Ferengi which aren't.

I don't know much about SW EU either, all I know about Jabba is what I've seen in the movies, he controls a large crime network, but how good is he at avoiding the law? Can't tell me the Imperials couldn't have shut Jabba down if they wanted to. However Quark... Odo was trying to shut him down all the time, and there was only one time Odo let Quark off the hook.

Brian

[Gunhead]

In SW it ain't about avoiding the law, it's about buying/blackmailing/extorting/cheating the right people so the law ignores you. If the Imps want you, they'll get you.
Odo was upholding the law. Imps bust in with stormies and declare you an enemy of the state. If you're lucky you'll die in the arrest. If not, you'll linger on in Kessel for a time, then die.

-Gunhead

[brianeyci]

In SW it ain't about avoiding the law, it's about buying/blackmailing/extorting/cheating the right people so the law ignores you. If the Imps want you, they'll get you.
Odo was upholding the law. Imps bust in with stormies and declare you an enemy of the state. If you're lucky you'll die in the arrest. If not, you'll linger on in Kessel for a time, then die.

-Gunhead

Depends on what universe this vs is set in then, and whether or not law or force is the rule of the land.

Brian

[Darth Wong]

In SW it ain't about avoiding the law, it's about buying/blackmailing/extorting/cheating the right people so the law ignores you. If the Imps want you, they'll get you.
Odo was upholding the law. Imps bust in with stormies and declare you an enemy of the state. If you're lucky you'll die in the arrest. If not, you'll linger on in Kessel for a time, then die.

-Gunhead

Depends on what universe this vs is set in then, and whether or not law or force is the rule of the land.

Brian

Do you even watch Star Trek? Criminal syndicates in Star Trek merely set themselves up on planets not controlled by the Federation. See the Orion Syndicate. They can expand far more quickly in that kind of anarchistic environment than people whose specialty is trickery. Without the entire Ferengi interstellar financial empire to sustain them, the Ferengi would be fucked. The Hutts are accustomed to working without that kind of officially recognized infrastructural support.

[brianeyci]

Do you even watch Star Trek? Criminal syndicates in Star Trek merely set themselves up on planets not controlled by the Federation. See the Orion Syndicate. They can expand far more quickly in that kind of anarchistic environment than people whose specialty is trickery. Without the entire Ferengi interstellar financial empire to sustain them, the Ferengi would be fucked. The Hutts are accustomed to working without that kind of officially recognized infrastructural support.

What the Orion Syndicate does is irrelevant in terms of what Ferengi would do.

Ferengi have worked without "officially recognized infrastructural support". See the case of the Ferengi conning natives to recognize them as gods. Even with Quark, I do not remember him ever calling the bank of Ferenganar for a loan, he was working in a vacuum hunted by a shapeshifter. Ferengi took over Ent-D without any support from the Ferengi government. Ferengi can definitely use force when needed, and of course "every man has his price" Rule of acquisition #98, DS9 "In the Pale...". I do not see why you think Ferengi could not work in an environment without support. Throw a Hutt into a structured environment where rules and law are the way of the land, officials can't be bribed, finding a good bounty hunter is hard to impossible, then Ferengi rule. And I don't see why you can't have "shady economics" in a structured environment.

Brian

[NecronLord]

the Hutts' propensity for murder will mean that they overcome the Ferengis, one way or another.

I don't know about that. Quark wasn't much of a killer true, but the TNG ferengi seemed quite fine with killing those who got in their way.

[Techno_Union]

Ferengi took over Ent-D without any support from the Ferengi government.

Brian

You do remember that they did so with two BoPs and set a trap for the Ent-D by making them think the planet was in danger (technically it was). Not to mention the Ent-D's crew acted rather stupid, and the episode also showed that Worf can be taken down by a Ferengi. But not before Worf fires and misses the Ferengi standing not more than 5 meters away.

Not a very good example as it also shows the Ferengi being rather stupid. I reference the part where Riker confused a Ferengi, and of course all the scenes where the children were able to trap the Ferengi, even if it was with the limited help of the computer.

[brianeyci]

You do remember that they did so with two BoPs and set a trap for the Ent-D by making them think the planet was in danger (technically it was).

They bought the ships, it wasn't some sort of government grant.

Not to mention the Ent-D's crew acted rather stupid, and the episode also showed that Worf can be taken down by a Ferengi. But not before Worf fires and misses the Ferengi standing not more than 5 meters away.

Irrelevant in terms of Ferengi business ability.

Not a very good example as it also shows the Ferengi being rather stupid.

It shows that there are different types of Ferengi, and that Ferengi can use force when necessary.

I reference the part where Riker confused a Ferengi, and of course all the scenes where the children were able to trap the Ferengi, even if it was with the limited help of the computer.

So what, I brought up this point to prove that Ferengi can use force. You want intelligence? Use Quark.

Brian

[Lord Pounder]

The fact of the matter is we've rarely if ever seen the Ferengi use force to get their way, the Hutts prefer force. If the Ferengi where smart the 1st thing they shoul have done when they took the E-D was to execute the officers once they had the bridge. Sure the computer was locked down but how much would the Romulan goverment have paid for even a locked down Gakaxy Class ship, and now just any Galaxy the flag ship of the fleet.

I've always seen the Ferengi as conmen and the Hutts as bullys.

In any versus between the 2 cultures they eventually merge, but only on the Hutts terms and only after the Grand Negus has his lobes removed in public.

[Techno_Union]

They bought the ships, it wasn't some sort of government grant.

Bought? I thought they stole them too?

Irrelevant in terms of Ferengi business ability.

No, it has relevance on their abilities when it comes to force. The example you cited ("Rascals"), showed an instance of Ferengi aggressiveness, but it showed that there was more to it then "Ferengi took over the Ent-D" as you said.

It shows that there are different types of Ferengi, and that Ferengi can use force when necessary.

What good is the force they can use if they still act incompetent when they use it?

So what, I brought up this point to prove that Ferengi can use force. You want intelligence? Use Quark.

Brian

Again, force is great and all (even though there was more to their take over of the Ent-D), but they showed that even when they used their force, they were still incompetent overall. But that IS just one group of Ferengi.

[brianeyci]

Bought? I thought they stole them too?

LURIN
We're not affiliated with the
Ferengi Alliance. We're... in
business for ourselves.
(smiles)
And yes, it will be highly
profitable. For an investment of
two surplus Klingon ships... a few
repairs... and some weapons...
we've netted a Federation starship
and her crew, not to mention a
planet rich in Vendarite.

Investment hints at bought, although investment could mean that they stole them... but more likely means they bought them.

No, it has relevance on their abilities when it comes to force. The example you cited ("Rascals"), showed an instance of Ferengi aggressiveness, but it showed that there was more to it then "Ferengi took over the Ent-D" as you said.

The only thing I wanted to show was that Ferengi were not queasy about using force, responding directly to the point that Ferengi don't use force. Quark's a pussy, doesn't mean all Ferengi are pussies.

What good is the force they can use if they still act incompetent when they use it? Again, force is great and all (even though there was more to their take over of the Ent-D), but they showed that even when they used their force, they were still incompetent overall. But that IS just one group of Ferengi.

They were not incompetent, there were a specific set of circimstances that let Riker gain back control. Specifically, that Picard, Ro Laren and Guinan had been turned into children and were able to strategize and use the main computer. Remember that the Ferengi beamed all adults down to the surface. They had Riker under guard, there was no reason for them to think that children would do anything, just like there is no reason for Jabba to think that Luke would be a Jedi Knight (although there was reason for him to be wary, how could Jabba know of Mind Trick without knowing about The Force, but I digress).

Brian

[brianeyci]

The fact of the matter is we've rarely if ever seen the Ferengi use force to get their way, the Hutts prefer force.

The only reason why we "rarely" see Ferengi use force to get their way is because we see a lot of Quark, and Quark is stuck on a space station with a changeling watching his every move. TNG shows Ferengi do use force.

I do not see how the ability to hire goons to kill whoever you don't like is any indication of business ability at all. Any two-bit villian can do that.

If the Ferengi where smart the 1st thing they shoul have done when they took the E-D was to execute the officers once they had the bridge. Sure the computer was locked down but how much would the Romulan goverment have paid for even a locked down Gakaxy Class ship, and now just any Galaxy the flag ship of the fleet.

The Ferengi had time. Remember they beamed all adults down to the surface. The Ferengi were also mining the planet, so they needed to sit there. Might as well try and keep Riker alive to open up the main computer. Remember Lucet would have started killing people if Riker had stalled any longer. Once Lucet's minion went to him and said he didn't understand anything, Lucet would have put someone competent on Riker to see through his bullshit, and it would have been all over.

Also you need to have the main computer unlocked, for command functions to work. Translation, you need main computer unlocked to move the Ent-D anywhere. Might as well unlock it for the Romulans, and get more latinum, especially when you have the time.

I've always seen the Ferengi as conmen and the Hutts as bullys.

I've always seen Ferengi as dangerous until Quark came along, and then Hutts as fatassed fuckers who wanted a piece of Leia pussy.

In any versus between the 2 cultures they eventually merge, but only on the Hutts terms and only after the Grand Negus has his lobes removed in public.

Says who, Ferengi would happily work under the Imperial boot just like Quark happily worked under the Cardassian and Federation boot. Ferengi wouldn't declare war against the Imperials, and who says the Imperials would declare war on Ferengi rather than work with them when they see the Ferengi can be bought? Ferengi would be the first to get in line to supply the Empire with schematics, weapons (even though the Imps don't need them) and whatever else once they realized the AQ was finished.

Brian

[Darth Servo]

the Hutts' propensity for murder will mean that they overcome the Ferengis, one way or another.

I don't know about that. Quark wasn't much of a killer true, but the TNG ferengi seemed quite fine with killing those who got in their way.

yet they have zero confirmed canon kills and they were then pussified in DS9 to the point that a Ferengi that was actually skilled in combat was considered a freak.

[brianeyci]

yet they have zero confirmed canon kills and they were then pussified in DS9 to the point that a Ferengi that was actually skilled in combat was considered a freak.

All subjective (who wouldn't consider mercenary who kills people for pleasure a freak), and you forget that true power lies in the threat of force rather than the blatant use of force.

Brian

[Gandalf]

yet they have zero confirmed canon kills and they were then pussified in DS9 to the point that a Ferengi that was actually skilled in combat was considered a freak.

Quark kills 2 Jem'Hadar guards in Sacrifice of Angels.

Leck and another one I can't remember killed 2 Jem'Hadar in The Magnificent Ferengi.