Klingons with X-Wings

[wautd]

Suppose Q gives the Klingons the technology to build and maintain X-Wings (- proton torps) at the same cost of a Bird of Prey. Is the alpha quadrant fucked if the Klingons change their tactics to fighter swarms or will they have too little to make a significant difference?

[brianeyci]

Klingons already fly around in swarms of Bird of Prey. Larger vessels are rarer than Bird of Prey, I don't know the exact numbers (who does), but if we take Kruge's "twenty-to-one" comment, perhaps Bird of Prey outnumber larger Negh'vars and K'vorts by twenty to one.

X-Wings certainly fit in with Klingon's self-glory mentality. Although I'm not sure how effective that would be in ST. Hasn't this been done a lot already, heavy losses of X-Wings? According to Alyeska, SF vessels have no problem hitting small targets.

Brian

[Darth Fanboy]

Suppose Q gives the Klingons the technology to build and maintain X-Wings (- proton torps) at the same cost of a Bird of Prey. Is the alpha quadrant fucked if the Klingons change their tactics to fighter swarms or will they have too little to make a significant difference?

If they can train decent enough pilots then your scenario turns into a simple SW Fighter vs. ST Capital Ship comparison, which has been noted in an above stickied thread.

If you are in charge of a military, and by some means acquired a weapon or weapons powerful enough to kick the ungodly snot out of your rivals and all it forces upon you is a slight change in tactics YOU DO IT.

The only downside I can think of is that the X Wings may not be capable of certain things a BoP can do with regards to its size, but the long range of hyperdrive and the power of proton torpedoes makes it worth it in my eyes.

[Darth Fanboy]

X-Wings certainly fit in with Klingon's self-glory mentality. Although I'm not sure how effective that would be in ST. Hasn't this been done a lot already, heavy losses of X-Wings? According to Alyeska, SF vessels have no problem hitting small targets.

Watch Wayne Poe's brilliant video "Trekmiss"

Doesn't matter how good they are at hitting the targets. Assuming competent pilots (which is a stretch considering Klingons) then the X wings would launch proton torpedos (given to us in the OP) outside of the range of the target ship in question. If by some way the X Wings dont get a lock, another capital ship like a Vor'Cha can feed the targeting info to the X Wings (as shown in the X-Wing novels)

If i'm incorrect and the Xwings torpedo range is not greater than that of say, a Federation ship's phasers or a Romulan Warbird's disruptors then it falls onto the strength of the starfighters lasers (which will not just bounce off the shields of the ship). The strength of which I am unfamiliar.

[wautd]

X-Wings certainly fit in with Klingon's self-glory mentality. Although I'm not sure how effective that would be in ST. Hasn't this been done a lot already, heavy losses of X-Wings? According to Alyeska, SF vessels have no problem hitting small targets.

Watch Wayne Poe's brilliant video "Trekmiss"

then the X wings would launch proton torpedos (given to us in the OP) outside of the range of the target ship in question

no I meant withouth proton torps ("-" as in minus)

[Darth Fanboy]

X-Wings certainly fit in with Klingon's self-glory mentality. Although I'm not sure how effective that would be in ST. Hasn't this been done a lot already, heavy losses of X-Wings? According to Alyeska, SF vessels have no problem hitting small targets.

Watch Wayne Poe's brilliant video "Trekmiss"

then the X wings would launch proton torpedos (given to us in the OP) outside of the range of the target ship in question

no I meant withouth proton torps ("-" as in minus)

Ah, specify that a weee better next time laddie

Okay then it all falls onto the strength/range of starfighter guns, and I know jack and shit bout that when it comes to VS debating.

[wautd]

Watch Wayne Poe's brilliant video "Trekmiss"

then the X wings would launch proton torpedos (given to us in the OP) outside of the range of the target ship in question

no I meant withouth proton torps ("-" as in minus)

Ah, specify that a weee better next time laddie

Okay then it all falls onto the strength/range of starfighter guns, and I know jack and shit bout that when it comes to VS debating.

They should be in the (low?) kiloton range and looking the rate of fire of which an X-wing can fire, they should be able to drain trek shields

[brianeyci]

This "scenario" is about how effective X-Wings piloted by Klingons would be against the Fed. It is a fighter vs capital ship scenario in disguise. I would not be too surprised if a mod locks it soon.

Watch Wayne Poe's brilliant video "Trekmiss"

Ground combat, not space combat, and I was talking specifically about Alyeska's claim that Federation phasers can hit small targets < 200 m in size with 90% accuracy. Red herring on your part.

Doesn't matter how good they are at hitting the targets. Assuming competent pilots (which is a stretch considering Klingons) then the X wings would launch proton torpedos (given to us in the OP) outside of the range of the target ship in question. If by some way the X Wings dont get a lock, another capital ship like a Vor'Cha can feed the targeting info to the X Wings (as shown in the X-Wing novels)

Somehow Klingons are incompetent pilots now? Got any proof for that generalization? Don't worry, since your statement is a universal quantification, I just need one example to refute it. But first show your proof first before I waste my time.

Federation ships don't have a problem locking onto small < 200m sized craft.

If i'm incorrect and the Xwings torpedo range is not greater than that of say, a Federation ship's phasers or a Romulan Warbird's disruptors then it falls onto the strength of the starfighters lasers (which will not just bounce off the shields of the ship). The strength of which I am unfamiliar.

Proton torpedoes yield at 120 kilotons, equivalent to a photon torpedo. So their protons can harm ST capital ships. Starfighter weapons 60 GJ. Order of magnitude less than what is required to harm a ST capital ship, which is rated in the terajoule range. There would have to be massive amounts of Klingon piloted X-Wings for them to be feasible against Fed capital ships. The op states that a BOP costs as much as an X-Wing. Taken at face value, that means the Klingons are better fielding BOP, because X-Wings can't harm ST capital ships except in large numbers, if we take the yields above, perhaps around 10 to 1 based on ten torpedoes taking out the shields of a Galaxy and 1-2 torpedoes on an X-Wing. Better to have 10 BOP, 3 of the larger K'Vort BOP can take out a Galaxy.

Brian

[wautd]

This "scenario" is about how effective X-Wings piloted by Klingons would be against the Fed.

Actually I gave them to Klingons because it would match with their "personal glory" more + they'll use it for asskicking. Just assume Klingons are as good as any fighterpilot

It is a fighter vs capital ship scenario in disguise. I would not be too surprised if a mod locks it soon.

Not really. I'm thinking of a real campain here. Like how much damage large groups of X-wings combined with superiour tactical speed can do

[brianeyci]

Actually I gave them to Klingons because it would match with their "personal glory" more + they'll use it for asskicking. Just assume Klingons are as good as any fighterpilot

Okay. How do Klingons use their smaller BOP? Fly around in swarms escorting their capital ships.

Not really. I'm thinking of a real campain here. Like how much damage large groups of X-wings combined with superiour tactical speed can do

Campaign? Klingons vs Romulans, Romulans die because they rely on hit-and-run and their warbirds have all their firepower mounted on two hugeass wing disruptors rather than array, although the smaller Romulan frigate we see in Nemesis might have been created to address this problem. Klingons vs Fed, depending on X-Wing numbers same or worse, but since the op specifically states that BOP costs as much as an X-Wing converting to X-Wing is stupid because a BOP is tactically superior to a single X-Wing, at least from the POV that three K'Vorts can take out a Galaxy and three X-Wings cannot, at least with standard warheads.

Brian

[omegaLancer]

Proton torpedoes yield at 120 kilotons, equivalent to a photon torpedo. So their protons can harm ST capital ships. Starfighter weapons 60 GJ. Order of magnitude less than what is required to harm a ST capital ship, which is rated in the terajoule range. There would have to be massive amounts of Klingon piloted X-Wings for them to be feasible against Fed capital ships. The op states that a BOP costs as much as an X-Wing. Taken at face value, that means the Klingons are better fielding BOP, because X-Wings can't harm ST capital ships except in large numbers, if we take the yields above, perhaps around 10 to 1 based on ten torpedoes taking out the shields of a Galaxy and 1-2 torpedoes on an X-Wing. Better to have 10 BOP, 3 of the larger K'Vort BOP can take out a Galaxy.

Actually that is incrorrect. Basically a proton torpedoe create a concertated beam of Protons on a single spot. As seen in "Survivor", the Enterprise was targeted by a Beam of antiprotons and positron with equivalent firepower of 400 gigawatts and that overloaded their shields.

If we assume even a 1 KT yield of the proton torpedo and it apply all the energy in a single second then the wattage of the proton beam would be 4.2 TW. At 120 KT that would be 504 KW, allowing each proton torpedo to cut thru the enterprise shield like a hot knife thru butter.

[/quote]

[Darth Fanboy]

This "scenario" is about how effective X-Wings piloted by Klingons would be against the Fed. It is a fighter vs capital ship scenario in disguise. I would not be too surprised if a mod locks it soon.

Watch Wayne Poe's brilliant video "Trekmiss"

Ground combat, not space combat, and I was talking specifically about Alyeska's claim that Federation phasers can hit small targets < 200 m in size with 90% accuracy. Red herring on your part.

Mentioning that was intended as humor, and the first ever 'Trekmiss' was spaceships, Trekmiss 2 was ground combat.[/quote]

[Ghost Rider]

And just for noted...1 KT/sec is a very low end estimate of the X-Wings gun capablities.

Merged with that they've shown a better refire rate and immensely more speed both in Sublight and FTL then Trek ships. The Klingons even with a small modicum of intelligence began ruling the alpha quadrant given they can dominat any naval scenario with ease with hit anywhere swarm tactics.

And actually why use Trekmiss as humor. Poe was only using it as such because it's funny as hell given the mantra of Trek has 95-99% percentile hit rate is abyssmally not so.

In fact, brian should not use the whole folly of appealing to Alyska as in an appela to authority to go "Trek can hit small ships"

Make the claim, provide the proof.

[Darth Fanboy]

Somehow Klingons are incompetent pilots now? Got any proof for that generalization? Don't worry, since your statement is a universal quantification, I just need one example to refute it. But first show your proof first before I waste my time.

I never SAID anywhere they were incompetent pilots. But they've been given alien technology and new pilots need to be trained fool. Nowhere in the Original post does it say that the Klingons are trained to use X-Wings. In fact when discussing the problem I assume that the Klingons already have trained pilots.

Federation ships don't have a problem locking onto small < 200m sized craft.

Did I ever say otherwise? Read my post, the strategies I feel are most effective would be firing off the proton torpedos outside of the ships weapons range and thats only if the range of said torpedo is greater than the weapons of the target.

There would have to be massive amounts of Klingon piloted X-Wings for them to be feasible against Fed capital ships. The op states that a BOP costs as much as an X-Wing. Taken at face value, that means the Klingons are better fielding BOP, because X-Wings can't harm ST capital ships except in large numbers.

with the proton torpedos I would disagree, long range volleys would be more effective than a BoP coming in close and being shredded by its more modern adversaries and getting damaged in the process. Especially since fleet engagements in Trek generally don't involve the sheer numbers seen in SW. Twenty capital ships on a side

without the proton torpedos I might agree, but even without then the BoP isn't the only capital ship in the Klingon fleet. REgardless of the effectiveness of X-wings starfighter weapons against a capital ship, one cannot discount the speed of hyperdrive, the ability of the X-Wing to perform in atmosphere, against ground based targets (as seen in Wraith and Rogue Squadron novels)

SEPARATE NOTES:

-Are the Klingons able to outfit any of these X-Wings with cloaking devices? Until now I have assumed this isn't the case. If it is legit to do so then I would take the X wings, get in close to the target, tear out a nacelle, or the bridge, and target neutralized.

-It could be argued that the BoP is more necessary not for combat needs but because even though it is a small capital ship it still falls somewhere in that range, the BoP is more able for longer missions and housing crew (duh DF!) than a one man fighter. If the BoPs were replaced with X-Wings though the Klingons could also delegate or devise a new ship for that role.

-X-wing lasers might not work against a shielded oppnent, but in a raiding situation where one drops in behind enemy lines and attacks say a shipyard or starbase. A surgical strike against a government building, no fighter or shuttle trek has can match an X wing. The ability of hyperdrive to scout systems.

[Ghost Rider]

Just as a small note guys.

The X-Wing if rate at 1 KT/Shot(per cannon)...which is low end given we're using Aethersprite firepower, but I digress, would mean 32000 GW per cannon.

The Ent-D shields are rated around....3370 GW.

Now, let's here from brian how the fuck that does not make the Klingons superior.

[Darth Fanboy]

And I sincerely apologise for perpetuating a SW Fighter vs ST Capship scenario. When the real question is Would an X Wing or BoP be more valuable to the klingon military (without torps). I say, Xwing.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Just as a small note guys.

The X-Wing if rate at 1 KT/Shot(per cannon)...which is low end given we're using Aethersprite firepower, but I digress, would mean 32000 GW per cannon.

The Ent-D shields are rated around....3370 GW.

Now, let's here from brian how the fuck that does not make the Klingons superior.

Uh, dude, if they'rated at 3000 gigawatts, how the fuck do they survive weapons rated at their lower limits at 10 to 30 terawatts against shields?

Also, despite the "Pegasus" quote, visuals show photon torpedoes hitting things with at least 5 megatonnage power, and visuals>dialogue.

[Ghost Rider]

Just as a small note guys.

The X-Wing if rate at 1 KT/Shot(per cannon)...which is low end given we're using Aethersprite firepower, but I digress, would mean 32000 GW per cannon.

The Ent-D shields are rated around....3370 GW.

Now, let's here from brian how the fuck that does not make the Klingons superior.

Uh, dude, if they'rated at 3000 gigawatts, how the fuck do they survive weapons rated at their lower limits at 10 to 30 terawatts against shields?

Also, despite the "Pegasus" quote, visuals show photon torpedoes hitting things with at least 5 megatonnage power, and visuals>dialogue.

That's because these are lower limits, or did I say somewhere these are the absolute high end for both sides?

Because last I saw...no I didn't. So don't Strawman me because I didn't go "THESE ARE BOTH SIDES LOW END, EVEN THOUGH IT'S FUCKING OBVIOUS!!!!!"

And thank for you for pulling high end for Torpedos...we've seen TNG shields and hull low ends at abyssmally low values as well, which is why this subject is in debate, because if your low end is within the other sides low end values then you consider the whole of the picture, not just go "We'll use an ultra high end figure and claim victoly!!!!!"

And in the end, before you can barging in like a bull in a china shop, how does this refute the idea that if the Klingons had X-Wings(sans torpedos...which makes the affair overkill) would not have an immense tactical advantage, given the speed and firepower that the ships have given their size?

[Mad]

Trek-style shields seem to be a kind of barrier shielding, acting like a second armor. They are decremented in percentages.

If we assume that Federation shields can take about 30 megatons before failing, and an X-wing can pump out about 10 kilotons per second (rough estimate of about 2 shots per second per gun, and they have 4 guns at about 1 kT each), then it'd take one X-wing 50 minutes to defeat the shields, assuming constant firing.

A squadron of 12 X-wings could do it in about 15 minutes. Sure, 5 minutes of constant firing would do it, but the fighters will need to evade and set up strafing runs. And account for any losses.

Given that the price is equivalent to a capital ship and that you'll need a couple dozen of them to ensure a quick kill, I'm not so sure the X-wings (without protorps) would be a cost effective way to attack enemy capital ships. Especially since a few BoPs should be able to do the same thing much more quickly and with less risk of a destroyed ship (i.e. cheaper).

[Ghost Rider]

Trek-style shields seem to be a kind of barrier shielding, acting like a second armor. They are decremented in percentages.

If we assume that Federation shields can take about 30 megatons before failing, and an X-wing can pump out about 10 kilotons per second (rough estimate of about 2 shots per second per gun, and they have 4 guns at about 1 kT each), then it'd take one X-wing 50 minutes to defeat the shields, assuming constant firing.

A squadron of 12 X-wings could do it in about 15 minutes. Sure, 5 minutes of constant firing would do it, but the fighters will need to evade and set up strafing runs. And account for any losses.

Given that the price is equivalent to a capital ship and that you'll need a couple dozen of them to ensure a quick kill, I'm not so sure the X-wings (without protorps) would be a cost effective way to attack enemy capital ships. Especially since a few BoPs should be able to do the same thing much more quickly and with less risk of a destroyed ship (i.e. cheaper).

I would disagree on a couple fronts.

One the ship in question is 12.5 meters vs a ship that easily rate 4-5 times that size. And I'm likely being extraordinarily generous. Size becomes a large accountable factor given Trek's accuracy on many accounts, especially against small craft.

Also given that Hyperdrives capabilities are that much greater...hit and fade tactics with swarms become a decisive advantage unless the opponent specifically creates traps to destroy all the party involved.

Essentially it's giving the Klingons a craft that can allow them to slowly pick away at most any enemy and maintain a small fleet that can sit in a non specific place to which they can determine conflicts better.

It doesn't replace their lager vessels but having a swarm of twenty to thirty craft along with a Vorcha coming at vectors you cannot detect is a huge advantage vs a 12 man craft that requires to decloak to apply the same advantage and still has the time and distacne problems.

[Lord Revan]

BTW isn't X-wing's gun considered powerfull compared to regural figther gun (the 1 kt number probaly comes from AOTC:ICS where Delta-7 had two 1 kt guns)

[Mad]

One the ship in question is 12.5 meters vs a ship that easily rate 4-5 times that size. And I'm likely being extraordinarily generous. Size becomes a large accountable factor given Trek's accuracy on many accounts, especially against small craft.

True, but a BoP can withstand more damage than an X-wing can. All it takes is one good hit to take out an X-wing. A swarm of BoPs or whatever will cost much less since there's less chance of losing them, though the bigger ships will take damage.

Sending bigger ships does put more lives at risk (a good hit can kill some crew without taking the ship out), but this isn't a concern for Klingons.

Also given that Hyperdrives capabilities are that much greater...hit and fade tactics with swarms become a decisive advantage unless the opponent specifically creates traps to destroy all the party involved.

True, this is their biggest capability in this scenario. But the X-wings won't have the support of bigger ships when this is done; they'll have to do it alone. But they can't do any heavy assaults.

Essentially it's giving the Klingons a craft that can allow them to slowly pick away at most any enemy and maintain a small fleet that can sit in a non specific place to which they can determine conflicts better.

The ability to quickly assist with any conflicts in a nearby area would be helpful. Once they arrive, combat would have begun. Then the X-wings can just start tearing apart the already damaged ships.

It doesn't replace their lager vessels but having a swarm of twenty to thirty craft along with a Vorcha coming at vectors you cannot detect is a huge advantage vs a 12 man craft that requires to decloak to apply the same advantage and still has the time and distacne problems.

Though the hyperdrive won't make a difference there.

There'd be a use, sure. But the lack of heavy assault means they'll be limited to strategic strikes against weakly defended areas and as reinforcements for conflicts. The enemy will be forced to put up a stronger defense inside its own territory, which will weaken their front lines. And that could be worth the cost.

But I don't think the advantage would be overwhelming unless they could be equipped with some kind of heavy ordinance.

Now, if the Klingons equipped a squadron of them with microtorpedoes (or developed microtorps for them)... then the X-wings might start to take enemy ships out on the first pass...

[Jordie]

Suppose Q gives the Klingons the technology to build and maintain X-Wings...

What's to stop the Klingons from applying the tech to other ships?

[brianeyci]

Just as a small note guys.

The X-Wing if rate at 1 KT/Shot(per cannon)...which is low end given we're using Aethersprite firepower, but I digress, would mean 32000 GW per cannon.

The Ent-D shields are rated around....3370 GW.

Now, let's here from brian how the fuck that does not make the Klingons superior.

I am using different numbers than you, probably outdated. If you look up, I link to a few older posts, 100 KT proton torpedoes, and 60 GJ per shot fighter firepower. These are the lower end that I could find while I was reading through the archive and main site. What numbers are you using, ICS?

Where did you get 3370 GW shielding? I am using 250k TJ shielding.

Also you are forgetting one thing. The op specifically states that it takes just as much to maintain one BOP as a fighter craft. Some BOP are capital ships in Trek, more maneuverable or less depending on the type of BOP. Take a look here. Now you honestly think the Klingons would want to trade in ships 320 m in size for the same number of smaller more easily destroyed ships? Please. And, it is not my fault that the op wasn't explicit in differentiating between types of BOP.

Hyperspace is one thing that I never considered, but I submit that Hyperspace is not that great of an advantage in this case unless the Klingons can bring to bear large numbers, because Federation outpotsts and colonies are shielded. I don't want to repeat myself, so I'll just link to it. In short, Angel One outpost's shields are thirty times more powerful than a GCS. And Fed archaeological outposts have two phaser arrays and possibly photon torpedoes, so most Fed colonies will be able to shoot back. Sure bring up Earth which is unshielded and doesn't seem to have fixed defenses (who knows why), but the Klingons already have a way to hit the Feds without them knowing. Its called cloak. Sure, hyperspace will allow the Klingons to use hit-and-run tactics and bring superior force concentration to bear, but remember you're replacing the majority of Klingon capital ship strength with far smaller craft, so there will be far less Klingons to take and hold ground, unless the larger Klingon craft can keep up. And Klingons like taking and holding ground, despite not being very good at it they are the best in Trek.

X-Wings would be highly useful against Klingons traditional enemies like Romulans and Cardassians, because their ships don't seem to have the right kind of weapons or accuracy to take out small fighter craft, as the Dominion war proved for the Cardassians and from observation of the Warbird. But trading in capital ships 320 m in size for the same amount of fighters? Ludicrous, just keep the BOP and save the trouble of training.

Brian

[brianeyci]

And before someone jumps on me and shouts "its explicit, of course he's referring to the smaller 12 man Bird of Prey"... in other ops I have found loopholes, one time Bride vs Aragorn and I suggested Bride use her gun and was commended for it. That's why I see ops needing to be more than just two sentences, and being more specific. I find a loophole in the op, too bad of course I'm going to exploit it, unless wautd closes it (he probably will, if he does not that means replacing K'Vorts and a lot of Klingon capital ship strength with X-Wings).

Brian