Crossover Univers

[Adam Reynolds]

I was looking at Crossover Univers and I read their pages on wars vs. trek.

http://www.crossoveruniverse.com/trekvwr2.htm

http://www.crossoveruniverse.com/vs25.htm

http://www.crossoveruniverse.com/vs4.htm

http://www.crossoveruniverse.com/vs2.htm

these guys are total trekies and ignore true evidence

[Jon]

OMG LOLOLZ Teh ST00P1D TR3KKIEz!!!!1!!1:@@

Old!

[Stark]

But its so funny to see their 'no numbers' approach

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

And their bullshit about how good a fighter Worf is and Borg fanwanking.

[Praxis]

DOUBLE POST:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=63425

[Praxis]

DOUBLE POST:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=63425

CRAP, I misread. Mods please delete my post here. Where's that dang edit button.

[Praxis]

I sent this email to the authors:

Hey, I've just noticed a lot of inaccuracies on your Star Wars Vs pages.

I'll handle three of them...plus the "Huh?" wars page.

For the "Huh?" wars page...
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 66#1482066

That should explain most of the "inconsistencies" you note.

For "Luke Skywalker vs Spider-Man"...don't get me wrong. Spider-man rules. But he wouldn't stand a chance.

While Luke Skywalker wouldn't use the force to throttle him to death, we do know that Luke will use force choke to paralyze opponents (see the Gammorean guards in ROTJ). You state that the first one to slip up will lose...did you forget about Luke's Mind Trick ability? He could make Spider-Man walk into a wall.

Force push would prevent Spidey from getting within two feet of him, and he could sense wherever Spidey runs. Precognitive abilities would let him sense where Spidey's attacks are coming from.

Spidey wouldn't have a chance unless Luke held back from using force push or mind tricks.

Next one...
Defiant vs Millenium Falcon.

With almost all of your Star Wars vs. pages, you seem to make the assumption that the weapons are the same.

Some quotes from that page:
"Although the Millennium Falcon is probably a lot quicker and more maneuverable at sublight speeds, the Defiant simply has far greater firepower. It's also more solidly built and seems to have much tougher shields (it was designed to take on the Borg, after all). The Falcon, even with its concussion missiles, probably couldn't even put a dent in it."

"Yeah, I would like to see the Falcon's puny gun turrets take on the Defiant's extreme firepower! The Millennium Falcon doesn't have HALF the firepower of the Defiant, and the Defiant has got to have much stronger shields."

Where the heck are you guys getting this stuff?

In the TNG episode, "Pegasus", it was stated it would take the Enterprise-D's entire photon torpedo payload to destroy a MOSTLY HOLLOW (the Enterprise could fit in it) 10 km diameter asteroid. The E-D has 600 Photon torpedoes. Compare that to the SINGLE MINE from the Slave-1.

According to the ICS, the only Star Wars tech manual to be declared canon by LucasArts, the tech manual that was written by an astrophysicist while working with George Lucas, an Acclamator class ship has heavy turbolasers that dish out 200 gigatons per shot. 200 GIGATONS! This fits the movies. Have you seen The Empire Strikes Back? Watch in slow motion. One of those asteroids was over 100 meters diameter (the length of the Defiant, and the Defiant is a lot less tall). It took a hit from a light turbolaser and was vaporized in 1/10th of a second and there was NO DEBRIS. Assuming they were made of pure iron (iron has a much lower melting point than rock, so if we assume it was rock the number is even higher), then it took 2 gigatons to accomplish this with a light turbolaser.

Amusingly...according to the TNG Tech Manual, a photon torpedo has a yield of 64 megatons.

We've seen torpedoes hit asteroids, and they only blew them apart, not vaporized them.

I think it's a reasonable assumption that Star Wars weaponry is ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE greater than Trek. It makes sense, since Star Wars has had galactic civilization for 25,000 years according to the EU (and it was specificly stated in Episode 2 that there hadn't been a war in a thousand generations)- Trek has only been in space for 300 years.

A single Star Destroyer turbolaser hit does more damage than a full VOLLEY from the Defiant, and the Falcon took a lot of those hits.

Since the Falcon's weapons are designed for hitting Star Wars ships...
I don't know about the cannons, but the Falcon's missles should have no problem taking out the Defiant if he gets off a few shots.

Calculations on the power of a turbolaser:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/index.html
Be warned: Very nerdy mathematics inside
I also suggest reading through this site.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/

Next one...

http://www.crossoveruniverse.com/trekvwr2.htm

Star Trek vs Star Wars...

"But the Federation and the other major powers of the Star Trek galaxy aren't going to just stand by and let themselves be conquered. A war seems inevitable, and the forces of Star Trek are more than willing to give the Empire the fight of its life to protect its territories and citizens."

This first bit of the setup seems unrealistic.

When the Dominion invaded, the Cardassians ALLIED with them, the Klingons and Federation declared war on them, and the Breen and Romulans signed non-agression treaties. The Romulans only declared war after the Federation tricked them and assassinated their senator (making them believe the Dominion did it), and the Breen later joined the Dominion.

Seems to me they wouldn't all jump at the chance for another war.
But whatever, lets just pretend they do.

"Energy weapons: Although from what we've seen in the Star Wars films versus what we've seen in the Star Trek shows, the phasers may seem much more powerful than Star Wars lasers, we've received a lot of technical info and have discovered on our own that Star Wars lasers are far more powerful than the simple name "laser" might imply. Turbolasers or the superlaser for example use a highly focused, stored energy burst to deliver a highly powerful blast designed to punch through a large ship's shields, or in the case of the superlaser, even destroy an entire planet in one shot. The nature of this energy is unknown, but it clearly does not seem to be focused light, like a true laser."

See the turbolaser commentaries page above in the email.

"Even so, phaser energy seems to have the ability to actually disintegrate matter itself, something Star Wars lasers clearly cannot do. The phaser can also maintain a beam for a prolonged period of time, as opposed to the short bursts of fire give off by Star Wars lasers."

Incorrect. We've seem that a phaser has the ability to begin an NDF reaction that disintegrates ORGANIC matter. It has almost no effect on normal matter.

Consider. TOS, a creature made out of silicon (which is a very weak substance) was nearly impervious to phasers because it wasn't organic.

In TNG and DS9 and Voyager, people often take cover behind PACKING CRATES, and phasers barely scratch them.

In the TNG episode "Gambit", Worf hid behind a pile of rocks and phasers didn't even damage the rocks.

Phasers barely burn metal walls.

See the SD.net page on phasers.


Ship vs ship, phasers are not more powerful. They are, in fact, less. We saw Cardassian heavy phasers blowing apart asteroids in DS9, asteroids which would have been vaporized by a turbolaser. In "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River", Jem Hadar phasers barely cracked apart asteroids made of ICE!

Phasers are vastly inferior to Turbolasers.

"An even further advantage is that they can be fired while a ship is traveling at warp speed, with the missiles themselves traveling at warp speeds as well. This would allow Star Trek ships to fire the missiles not only a great distance from their targets, but would make the missiles themselves virtually impossible to intercept."

Not quite right. In no episode have we EVER seen a ship at warp firing on a ship in realspace. We've seen ships at warp fire at ships at warp, and ships in realspace firing at ships in realspace, but never warp vs realspace (in fact, they always drop out of warp to fire. See the Picard Maneuver). In fact, the TNG TM even states that they are unable to fire phasers outside of the warp bubble.


"Wildcard Factors: One of our readers mentioned the existence of the warp bomb...a collapsible warp field generator that destroys all matter in its range. This range is limited to only 19.2 meters when it is within 1 astronomical unit of a star, but away from stars, the range seems to be much greater and could deliver quite a devastating blow to any ships in its path. Once again, this would give Star Trek quite an advantage in the weapons category."

Where the heck does this come from?

And why would any ship fight away from stars? Ships don't fight in deep space (at least in Star Wars, hyperdrive is so fast that you jump from system to system too fast to engage someone in space), so that won't work very well.

"Wildcard factors: In Return of the Jedi, we saw the Empire employ a virtually impenetrable shield that it used to protect the half completed Death Star. According to the novel, this shield also surrounded Endor. In fact, according to the RPG's , planetary shielding seems to be quite common in the Star Wars Universe, whereas this seems much less common in Star Trek. Used in conjunction with something like the Death Star, this type of shielding would make this already very powerful weapon virtually indestructible as well. This would also allow the Empire to very effectively protect any planets it occupied from orbital attacks."

I should point out that according to the EU (which is semi-canon according to Lucas, as long as its not contradicted by movies), nearly every important planet in SW has a planetary shield, and Coruscant's shield was stated to be able to repel an entire fleet of Star Destroyers for over a week. As a result, ships in Star Wars have to blockade planets and dig in the trenches for a few days when conquering them.

In Star Trek, they just attack and conquer.

This gives Wars a big advantage, since Trek ships are not used to having to do this and the wait time gives SW time to bring reinforcements. Meanwhile, Trek planets are completely unprotected.

For Warp vs Hyperdrive, you've got it right on the mark. Hyperdrive is thousands of times faster, but its so fast that you never even see whats in front of you before you slam into it (Warp is slow so you actually see where you are going) so an exact course must be plotted.

You say Warp would give an advantage in ship to ship combat. Why would this be necessary? Star Wars ships will not just randomly waltz into neutral space and fight random ships like Star Trek ships do, because of the speed of Hyperdrive. They'll jump straight to a planet and bombard it. So all battles will take place over planets, just like they do in Star Wars.

You can't just go warping in and out of the system when the planet is under attack, unless you intend to allow them to drop landing troops on the planet! That would ground Trek ships and allow the Star Wars ships to crush them.

"It was also suggested by another reader that since Star Trek ships can scan subspace, they could also detect ships traveling through hyperspace. This seems like a reasonable hypothesis. Scanning subspace also gives Trek ships the ability to scan great distances, even across the span of a few light-years. This would allow the Trek sensors to detect the Empire before it mounted an attack as well. Granted, since the ships traveling through hyperspace are traveling very quickly, it wouldn't give the Federation much time to react, but it would still give them an at least potentially sufficient warning to defend themselves against the coming onslaught."

From the data we have, I know this sounds silly, but...
According to the episodes we've seen and the TMs, Star Trek transmissions move at 200,000c. Star Wars ships move at approx. 5 million c average. (c is light speed)

So a Trek ship picks up a Star Wars ship zooming past them for a split second toward Earth. It transmits to Earth, "You're going to be attacked!" However, the Star Wars ship is moving faster than the transmission! So that's sorta...useless.



"Cloaks The Empire and the Forces of Star Trek seem to be just about equal in this area. The Timothy Zahn novels and the video game Rebel Assault II have even established the same weakness on the part of Star Wars cloaks that the Star Trek cloaks have... that they can't fire their weapons or raise shields when cloaked. Both Star Trek and Star Wars cloaks render a ship completely invisible, both visually and to sensors. Trek cloaks have been known to give off an energy signature that is potentially detectable by sensors. It's never been made clear though whether or not Star Wars cloaks have such a weakness."

The EU novels clear this up.

Star Wars ships have their sensors blinded when they are cloaked (so they can't detect anything), but their shields are up and weapons are online.

So if you fire at a cloaked Wars ship, they'll take the hit on the shields, and fire back in the direction your weapons fire is coming from, but won't be able to see who is attacking them.

If you fire at a cloaked Trek ship, they'll see you coming but with no shields...kaboom.

I also want to point out the existance of CGT sensors on Star Wars space stations. They're gravitic sensors that can pick up cloaked ships by their exact mass and gravitic signature. And unless you're going to say Trek cloaked ships are invulnerable to gravity and can go through a black hole (lol), they'd be detected by stations.


"Wildcard factors: In an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation, they established that Starfleet had at one time, illegally developed a phased cloak. This rendered a ship not only completely invisible, but also allowed the ship to phase through solid matter. Being in this state also makes the ship untouchable....A phantom ship such as this would be quite a difficult thing for the Empire to have to deal with. All Starfleet has to do is reopen the project and start equipping its ships with this technology to use for the war."

It was destroyed, however.

"But the forces of Star Trek have a few advantages of their own. When it comes to a man-to-man type of battle, the hand-held phaser clearly beats the hand-held blaster. A phaser can instantly disintegrate matter... A blaster can't do that. Of course, against a fellow human being, the blaster kills just as effectively as the phaser does, even if it doesn't disintegrate a target. But against the Empire's ground vehicles, a simple handheld phaser could more than likely disintegrate enough of say, an AT-ST walker's hull, or another vital part of its structure, like a foot, and cause a lot of damage. And even an AT-AT Walker would quickly find the larger, ground mounted phasers you would find at a typical Federation installation to be more than enough to take these massive, walking vehicles out as well."

As I pointed out, phasers only disintegrate ORGANIC matter. So against an AT-ST or AT-AT, it'd be nearly useless.


"As for transporters, this would probably be one of the Empire's biggest bane's. Once an Imperial ship's shields are down, Star Trek ships can beam just about anything they want over to the enemy...troops, bombs, tribbles...you name it. Once again, the Empire is not going to have much of a defense against that. And in a ground based conflict on a planet's surface, this gives Star Trek the same advantage Hyperdrive gives Star Wars...the ability to move troops, weapons, and other resources over great distances very quickly."

1) Transporters can't go through heavy armor or rare ores, as seen in Insurrection and almost every TNG episodes. What about Durasteel?
2) How are the puny ST weapons gonna take out the Star Destroyers shields? It's not that easy.

"The Federation could, after all, do the same thing with the Superlaser, or Ion cannon, or whatever the case may be."

The Federation has never been shown any ability to build anything on the scale of the Superlaser.

The biggest Starbase ever constructed is still smaller than a Super Star Destroyer.

I doubt they could build a superlaser.


Conclusion:

Trek is completely crushed by Wars. A 300 year old Federation of 150 planets and three equal-sized groups (Romulans, Klingons, and Cardassians) vs a 25000 year old ultra-militaristic galactic civilization that can build a DEATH STAR with more mass than the Federation's entire fleet in less than 6 months.

There is no comparison. Trek gets steam-rolled.