Trek-Verse Alliance vs Rebel Alliance

[Rommie2006]

I've got a new scenario here.

Let's say we combine all the Trek forces together - Federation, Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians, Dominion and Borg (no don't ask how they form this alliance). Timeframe shortly after VOY returns, screw the temporal directive (i.e. retain transphasic torpedoes, ablative armor generator)
They all co-operate and share technology, i.e. so we assume the highest technology base feasible. e.g. meaning everyone has transwarp tech, ablative armor *generator* (bat-mobile), etc.

Pit this unholy alliance against an invading Rebel Alliance (during the height of their power whatever it may be).

Who do you think will win? I say the Trek-Verse Alliance may be able to win the Rebel Alliance, but I don't really have all the facts in at my fingertips. For example, exactly how many planets do the Rebel Alliance control, and what is the size of their fleet?

[Ghost Rider]

Ummm...given that the disparity in tech still exists, the Rebels still quash them...it just takes well...a little longer.

Also do some searches if you can...we've had arguments about single ISD nearly toppling vast portions of the Trek Galaxy, let alone an organization.

[Sarevok]

Same thing happens. The Empire wins but has more targets to shoot at. ISD gunners get more target practice.

[Kuja]

Pit this unholy alliance against an invading Rebel Alliance (during the height of their power whatever it may be).

At the height of their power, the New Republic (formerly the Rebel Alliance) controlled the vast majority of the galaxy. Although military funding was slack compared to the Empire at its height, the New Republic still had plenty of Star Destroyers, Mon Cal cruisers, and a little sweetheart named the Lusankya. The New Republic could still crush the unified Milky Way if they so chose.

[Patrick Degan]

Even without Imperial superweapons at the Rebels' disposal, this still screams "horrific mismatch" —and all on the Rebels' side.

[Blazican]

Well i think the rebels still take this one. When you think about it SW has always built ships/weapons for pure over kill. when you look at a strident star defender and a mon remonda cruiser, i think the Trek allience would just turn around and run.

[The Original Nex]

Rebels would have destroyed the Trek Alliance, they'd just do it slower than the Empire would. Their morals might get in the way a bit too, but they would take the win in the end.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Don't be so sure. By my own calcs, the entire Borg collective, assuming perfect tactical coordination, could take anywhere between 50 and 200 Star Destroyers- but considering that this was calculated wherein they get englobement and swarming in every scenario, this is bunk.

However, if the Federation and allies got the future-tech, I'd say they could defeat the Rebel Alliance- note that the OP never said anything about the New Republic, so this would be limited to the 50 or so Mon Calamari cruisers and support craft.

With Scimitar perfect cloaking, and those phase-cloaking torpedoes, I actually think the Trek-alliance might just win. For a change.

[Ghost Rider]

Ummm...so how exactly are phase cloaking torpedos and Scimitar's supposed perfect cloak going to do anything against ships that take in the upwards of hundreds of TT damge to the upwards of low Petaton damage.

Everytime I've heard this I have never been given a satisfactory answer, it's always been something speculative and really, given what we saw of ST vs what of SW....seriously I understood how the old debates have fire.

But the barring Trek getting GT weaponry in the multi hundreds, does not compete. Literally they are geting ships slaughtered by single Mon Cal crusiers...let alone fleet tactics who can take them at ranges they don't reach. Let alone the speed category.

And given this is wholesale...let's remind people that this means they can outfit their fightercrafts with MultiGT warheads and other such fun stuff making their fighter craft threats.

So please...tell me again how?

It takes longer, yes...but given that it would literally take hundreds to thousands of their ships to kill one of the big ones...how again is this a concievable conflict?

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Quite simply, from what little evidence we have these phase-cloaking torpedoes seem to fly through armour/shielding and detonate inside whatever's attacking them. We must assume that they will have the same capabilities even against big cruisers. An Akira outfitted with these and a cloaking device could conceivably fly at distance and hit those Mon Cals at least a few times before one of those turbolasers firing blind blasts it into oblivion.

Now, I'm not saying that the victory would be easy- even with these measures, a single blind shot will disable or destroy any ST craft, so I'd expect hundreds of ships to die even with their shooting beneath the hull against even small groups- but if captains like Jellico and Necheyev can take command, these tactics would work well, since they bypass the main object that would allow single cruisers to cut through fleets like butter- that is, teraton/petraton level shielding.

[Ghost Rider]

Ummm....exactly how is destroying a Borg Cube with more then one torpedo leapt to the conclusion that it will pentrate a foreign shield and armor, again?

Seriously the whole point of those things were to penetrate the modulator shields of the Borg, I don't remember anywhere going they go through any and all armor and shields.

I mean you are using that leap of logic, and it's hardly sound.

And we are talking THOUSANDS. Hundreds is a small esitamte of how much ONE Mon Cal can take if....standing there...firing....without manuvering....whatsoever.

So please...once again...provide something other then a assumption of how they are winning?

[Stark]

Has the jump been made between 'Transphasic torpedoes' and 'phase cloaked torpedoes'? That is hilarous.

They ain't phase cloaked, natch. You can see them, there's an impact explosion, etc. They PHYSICALLY PENETRATE borg ships. They ain't bypassing no bitches shields.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Then this is the point of contention at which I stop debating.
From my viewing, it seemed as though these torpedos were modified to phase-cloak through target shields and explode on impact. But an argument could be made that they simply are to be used against borg modulating shields. Seeing as there is equal evidence either way, and it is unlikely that either side will relinquish their views, I will now step down so that I don't get into another debate that doesn't go anywhere.

[Praxis]

Then this is the point of contention at which I stop debating.
From my viewing, it seemed as though these torpedos were modified to phase-cloak through target shields and explode on impact. But an argument could be made that they simply are to be used against borg modulating shields. Seeing as there is equal evidence either way, and it is unlikely that either side will relinquish their views, I will now step down so that I don't get into another debate that doesn't go anywhere.

I disagree. Transphasic torpedoes don't phase through shields, I believe (there are no official details). My opinion on Transphasic torpedo is that they rapidly change their frequencies and phase to prevent the Borg from adapting, and are armor-peircing.

Remember that a shuttle can turn its engines and shields off and go right through Borg shields? Transphasic torpedoes are just anti-borg torpedoes that are designed to:
A) Go through Borg shields (perhaps they turn off their nav shields before impact?), which is quite easy
B) Be nearly impossible to adapt to
C) Peirce armor and explode inside.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

Like I said, it's a point of contention with no clear victor, so it's pointless debating it.

[Rommie2006]

Don't be so sure. By my own calcs, the entire Borg collective, assuming perfect tactical coordination, could take anywhere between 50 and 200 Star Destroyers- but considering that this was calculated wherein they get englobement and swarming in every scenario, this is bunk.

However, if the Federation and allies got the future-tech, I'd say they could defeat the Rebel Alliance- note that the OP never said anything about the New Republic, so this would be limited to the 50 or so Mon Calamari cruisers and support craft.

With Scimitar perfect cloaking, and those phase-cloaking torpedoes, I actually think the Trek-alliance might just win. For a change.

My sentiments exactly. I know ST-verse is really outclassed by SW-verse, but let's maintain some sense of objectivity here ok?
And yes I was referring to the Rebel Alliance NOT the New Republic.
I admit I have no details of the industrial or military capabilities of the Rebel Alliance, but from ROTJ it appears that they are limited to only a few hundred cap ships (unless the bulk of their fleet did not join the Battle of Endor for some weird reason). Their industrial capacity is probably limited to a few hundred systems at best.

Compare this to the proposed Trek Alliance. We are uniting the Alpha, Delta and Gamma quadrant powers, giving them the industrial capacity of several thousands of star systems. Admittedly, their ships are outclassed, but they do make up for their numbers. Numerically, I think their ships can numbers to almost 100k (say Borg 50k, Fed 10k, Romulans 10k, Cardassians 10k, Klingons 10k, Dominion 20-30k). Plus the era is post VOY tech plus Dominion/Borg tech combined. Meaning that we are getting the best tech out of every race.

Romulan perfect cloaks, Federation phase cloak, Federation transphasic torps, Borg regeneration, Borg weaponry, Borg transwarp, Fed ablative armor generator, Dominion/Breen energy weapons, Jem-Hadar soldiers, Borg industrial capabilities.



So IMO I think that the Trek Alliance has a good chance to beat the ragtag Rebel Alliance.

[Junghalli]

My opinion on Transphasic torpedo is that they rapidly change their frequencies and phase to prevent the Borg from adapting, and are armor-peircing.

Forgive my ignorance, but exactly how does a torpedo have a frequency?

[Kuja]

How long would it take 50 Mon Cals to BDZ Earth? A few minutes?

If the Rebel Alliance is given decent background information, they could cripple this Milky Way Alliance in a few days? All they have to do is dish out repeated headshots:

Hyperjump to Earth, blamblamblam, hyperjump to Quo'Nos, blamblamblam, jump to Romulus, blamblamblam, jump to Cardassia Prime, etc, etc, etc until this Alliance is effectively shattered and leaderless. Then the majority of the fleet can zip out to the edge of the galaxy while a couple of quick ships remain to keep an eye on things, maybe even make demands. The lack of planetary shielding and tight, solid defenses of Trek planets, plus the speed of hyperdrive and the power of turbolasers are what brings victory to the Rebels.

[Stark]

NAB, look at the evidence. There's an impact explosion, for fucks sake. Your theory appears to be based solely on the name, which is pretty tenuous.

[Locutus_8472]

Would this proposed Trek Alliance include the Voth from VOY: Distant Origin?

They had tech in some ways on par with SW, transwarp that could cover 90 light years in a matter of minutes, more advanced phase cloak and sufficiently advanced computer systems that they could take Voyager over in seconds, plus the transporter capability to transpost the entire starship Voyager into their hanger bay. ST computer tech is not very far behind SW computer tech that I have read about. If they can remotely power down Voyager could the same be done to Mon Cal cruises.

We have seen or had reference to a variety of "super-races" (not including Q) that could potentially give SW a run for its money, the race from VOY with the subspace munitions testing range comes to mind.

[Stark]

That is funny shit. You troll for a living!

Voth tech AIN'T comparable, but even if it was there's hardly very many Voth, so no real difference there.

Again, even assuming SW IT isn't that far ahead of ST IT (a, frankly, ludicrous assumption), SW ships don't fly around with open ports, listener services running, indiscriminate execution of recieved code, etc. I don't see anyone taking a MC over: and everything has local control anyway,so it wouldn't be a war winner ANYWAY.

[Locutus_8472]

That is funny shit. You troll for a living!

No, I prefer doing fun stuff, like Modding HW2. Those boards at least are profanity-free.

[Stark]

Hey, I like posting here: these boards are largely STUPID MORON free. HAH! Geddit? You're a stupid moron, these boards are largely.... oh never mind. The REAL humour comes when you appreciate that stupidity is a permanent, life-crippling problem, whereas profanity really isn't a problem at all. See? It's got hidden depths.

People like you are actually quite amusing: you show up, make a bunch of utterly retarded claims, get them shot down, then cry 'you bad man, you said I was stupid!'. Prove your points... if you can.

[Nick Lancaster]

When folks say, oh, I was talking about the Rebel Alliance, not the New Republic ... what, pray tell, did you think the New Republic was? It's the Rebel Alliance, pinheads.

And again, instead of talking facts, we're talking magic-wishful-thinking tech, supercalifragilistic phasing torpedos that somehow change frequencies.

Ahem. The nature of a torpedo is a controlled matter/anti-matter reaction. There is no frequency, unless you're positing that the reaction occurs and it is somehow channeled/transmitted by the torpedo mechanism, which is still more Trek idiot-tech. Never use a hammer when you can use a multiphasic Feinberger. (And how many of you Trek weenies even know what a Feinberger is, anymore?)

Furthermore, it's assumed that the 'ignore the shuttle' tactic that worked in BOBW will naturally continue to work in all instances, against all Borg ships, conveniently ignoring the Borg's adaptive capabilities. What, you don't think they can adapt to a trojan horse tactic?

Why even assume the Borg will participate in your parade? The Borg don't give a rat's ass about your Federation. In order to win their cooperation, you have to have something they want, or be able to threaten them in a meaningful fashion. "Here, assimilate me, I just drank multiphasic rat poison! Up yours, Queenie!"

Why even assume that 'all the ships of the Federation, the Klingons, the Romulans, the Cardassians, etc.' are going to go head-to-head with the Rebel fleet in some glorious battle? This is the same tired line where 'the Enterprise will outmaneuver the Star Destroyer' and seems to assume that the enemy is sitting there waiting for their proper whupping at the hands of the Uber-Federation.

Right, resources. The Uber-Federation has resources. I'm sure they have permission slips from their mommies and daddies, too. One of the first objectives in war is to identify enemy resources and lines of supply and take them away. (And it still takes time to build starships in large quantities, go listen to Shelby's pitch at the end of BOBW.)

10,000 ships in the Federation alone? Laughable. If the Federation had 10K ships, Wolf 359 would have been a minor setback, and that was a desperation, last-minute, all-hands push.

And your assumption that you get the best tech out of every race is also flawed. Is the technology so bland that gizmo x from the Dominion ship works the exact same way on the Federation ship? You may have the massed technology, but that's a long way from your 100,000 ships all having the same tech.

As for the Borg 'industrial capabilities' - that's NONE. Zero, zilch, zip. They assimilate, not build. Ask the Borg to retrofit your ship, you get a Borg ship ... not a Federation one. Their design protocols are meant for Borg - not for humans or any other species.

Ablative armor? Hah. I thought your shields were impervious to our (or the Rebels') wimpy 'lasers'. And the concept of regenerating ablative armor was an idiot plot device from the very start. Or are you telling me you magically materialized sufficient material to absorb punishment from Borg weapons, but somehow, it all comes out of nowhere and goes back to nowhere? That the SIF manages to hold up not only the original hull, but this steel (?) bubble of slightly larger volume, which is magically suspended around the ship?

And all that crossed your fanboy brains was, wow, that looks cool, I'm gonna put it on my starship and be da 733t *4733t dood?

Amazing.

[Praxis]

My opinion on Transphasic torpedo is that they rapidly change their frequencies and phase to prevent the Borg from adapting, and are armor-peircing.

Forgive my ignorance, but exactly how does a torpedo have a frequency?

Don't ask me to explain. The BOP was able to adjust the frequency on their torpedoes in Generations, and Borg ships are obviously able to adapt to the torpedoes.

Perhaps its the nav shields the torpedoes have that have the frequency? Or perhaps its the explosion of the torp? *shrug*

But by ST canon, somehow, torpedoes have frequencies.