Proving BaldStar Wrong

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2002-07-26 02:25am

Singular Quartet · Post by **Singular Quartet** » 2002-07-26 02:44am

First off, I would like to say, that isn't a mullet.

Secondly: Yeah, so? The enterprise can't turn at warp? Who said they could?

DarkStar · Post by **DarkStar** » 2002-07-26 04:08am

Lord Poe wrote:Did the E-D make a sharp warp turn in "Encounter at Farpoint"?

Nope.

I made screencaps of virtually every scene in the sequence. You will note, that the E-D is at warp before saucer seperation, during saucer seperation, after saucer seperation, but NOT DURING THE TURN. Then the stardrive section is back at warp.

More of your "warp star" silliness, I see. We already discussed this about
TOS, and I even mentioned early TNG examples of it to you. In short, early TNG-era FX sometimes made the 'error' of trying to show warp-driven ships at warp from a stationary observation point, and this stationary position would not have warp stars, even if the ship was at warp. For example, in this episode, moments before the separation, the Enterprise is running from Q at high warp, but the chase is shown from a stationary observation point as two flybys without "warp stars", as you can see here:
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_101.htm

You claim the stardrive section decelerated to impulse speeds, but this just
isn't so. Knowing how you are, I'll go ahead and "draw it out for you":

The ship was moving at a speed of at least warp 9.5, being chased by Q (
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_104.htm ).

Picard moves to the battle bridge with a plan to make good the escape of the saucer
( http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_116.htm ).

Just before Yar fires torpedoes in the hopes of blinding the Q at the moment of separation (dumb idea, but they didn't know he was omnipotent at the time), Picard tells Worf: "At the moment of separation, we'll reverse power just enough to get your saucer section out ahead and clear of us." Worf acknowledges
(http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_119.htm ).

We see the saucer separation, and we see the saucer appear to pull ahead by several dozen meters, just as Picard said.
(http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_132.htm ,
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_133.htm and
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_143.htm )

As you saw in that last shot, both sections were at warp speeds. With the
saucer "out ahead and clear", the stardrive section turns to face the Q.
The shot of the ship is from a stationary location, and we see the ship turn
on a dime and go flying back toward the Q. When it does so, there is no
"warp flash" of the ship going back into warp. Why? Because it never
dropped out of warp to begin with.
(http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_145.htm ,
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_146.htm ,
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_148.htm , and
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_150.htm )

There is then a moment's reaction shot of Picard, lasting about three
seconds. It should be noted that this is not long enough to allow for the
special effect of the ship going into warp that you see at the end of the
opening credits. When this reaction shot is over, there is a mobile (with
warp stars) shot of the stardrive moving at warp.
(http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_151.htm)

Shortly thereafter, Picard orders the ship to come to a stop. He says
"reverse power", then Data acknowledges: "Reverse power, decelerating."
The deceleration of the stardrive section from warp speeds takes six
seconds... we see the stars slow from "warp stars" to normal impulse-speed
"stars" on the bridge. (http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_152.htm ).

That is the nail in the coffin of your idea, beyond the simple fact of the
way warp was portrayed in early TNG. The fact that the ship took six
seconds to drop out of warp with reverse power means that the ship could not have dropped to impulse to make the hard starboard turn. It also means that the saucer section, which could not have reversed warp power, was still at warp in that shot.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2002-07-27 05:02am

DarkStar wrote:More of your "warp star" silliness, I see.

Yup, canon is so "silly".

We already discussed this about
TOS, and I even mentioned early TNG examples of it to you.

And you were wrong there, too.

In short, early TNG-era FX sometimes made the 'error' of trying to show warp-driven ships at warp from a stationary observation point,

Concession Accepted.

For example, in this episode, moments before the separation, the Enterprise is running from Q at high warp, but the chase is shown from a stationary observation point as two flybys without "warp stars", as you can see here:
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_101.htm

What you show here is Q's ball. Not the E-D.

You claim the stardrive section decelerated to impulse speeds, but this just isn't so.

Sorry, the canon episode disagrees with you.
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyi.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyj.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyk.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyl.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldym.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyn.jpg

The ship was moving at a speed of at least warp 9.5, being chased by Q (http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_104.htm ).

Showing warp-effect...

Picard moves to the battle bridge with a plan to make good the escape of the saucer
( http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_116.htm ).

Wow, how relevant....
[snip more loving crew shots that have nothing to do with warp effects]

We see the saucer separation, and we see the saucer appear to pull ahead by several dozen meters, just as Picard said.
(http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_132.htm ,
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_133.htm and
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_143.htm )

Yes, idiot, these are the exact same screencaps I made. padding your post with such useless crap is hardly impressing anyone.

As you saw in that last shot, both sections were at warp speeds.

Which was never in contention. (reread original post) The point you're trying to dodge is, is that the saucer and stardrive sections were NOT AT WARP when the stardrive turned away from the saucer section, supported once again by my screencaps:
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyi.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyj.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyk.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyl.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldym.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyn.jpg

..and that website you're so fond of:

http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/index_2.htm

thumbnails TNG101_141.jpg to TNG101_150.jpg.

The shot of the ship is from a stationary location, and we see the ship turnon a dime and go flying back toward the Q. When it does so, there is no"warp flash" of the ship going back into warp. Why?

Because the scene changed to Picard stroking his chin instead of showing the warp flash.

Because it neverdropped out of warp to begin with.

(To make it easier on the reader, BaldStar is referring to these screencaps:

TNG101_145.jpg
TNG101_146.jpg
TNG101_148.jpg
TNG101_150.jpg

All of which clearly show that the E-D was NOT at warp, due to the absence of a warp effect. Clearly in line with the facts of the show, since the saucer section can't maintain warp by itself.

There is then a moment's reaction shot of Picard, lasting about three
seconds. It should be noted that this is not long enough to allow for the
special effect of the ship going into warp that you see at the end of the
opening credits.

Red Herring. Its more than enough time for them to go to warp, as even from a standstill, they've done it faster (Q Who?) Its amazing how much a Trekkie will whore himself to try to win an argument.

DarkStar · Post by **DarkStar** » 2002-07-27 12:36pm

Lord Poe wrote:
DarkStar wrote:More of your "warp star" silliness, I see.
Yup, canon is so "silly".

You would appear to think so, given how you ignore it so readily.

We already discussed this about
TOS, and I even mentioned early TNG examples of it to you.

And you were wrong there, too.

You are the one who withdrew from the TOS argument after I proved your stupid lies were wrong.

In short, early TNG-era FX sometimes made the 'error' of trying to show warp-driven ships at warp from a stationary observation point,
Concession Accepted.

Yep, you do think canon Trek is "silly".

For example, in this episode, moments before the separation, the Enterprise is running from Q at high warp, but the chase is shown from a stationary observation point as two flybys without "warp stars", as you can see here:
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_101.htm
What you show here is Q's ball. Not the E-D.

No shit. That is Q's ball chasing the Enterprise at high warp.

You claim the stardrive section decelerated to impulse speeds, but this just isn't so.

Sorry, the canon episode disagrees with you.

Bullshit. Moments later with reversed engines, it took the stardrive section six seconds to drop out of warp. Even when Kirk's Enterprise lost warp speed in "Arena"[TOS], Sulu was able to read off their speed reduction, and did not involve reversed engines.

Your claim is that because you haven't watched enough TNG to know how warp drive is shown, the saucer and stardrive both must have magically dropped out of warp in 1/15th of a second, even though we know it takes the stardrive section 90 times longer to do that with reverse power.

Dumbass.

The ship was moving at a speed of at least warp 9.5, being chased by Q (http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_104.htm ).
Showing warp-effect...

No shit. The Enterprise is the observation point, and it is mobile.

Picard moves to the battle bridge with a plan to make good the escape of the saucer
( http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_116.htm ).
Wow, how relevant....
[snip more loving crew shots that have nothing to do with warp effects]

You're the one who doesn't know TNG. I figured you could use the introduction.

We see the saucer separation, and we see the saucer appear to pull ahead by several dozen meters, just as Picard said.
(http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_132.htm ,
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_133.htm and
http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/p ... 01_143.htm )
Yes, idiot, these are the exact same screencaps I made. padding your post with such useless crap is hardly impressing anyone.

This is the same message I smacked you down with before, moron. The fact that you need to be led to the water like a retarded horse isn't my problem. Drink, fool!

As you saw in that last shot, both sections were at warp speeds.

Which was never in contention. (reread original post) The point you're trying to dodge is, is that the saucer and stardrive sections were NOT AT WARP when the stardrive turned away from the saucer section, supported once again by my screencaps:
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyi.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyj.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyk.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyl.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldym.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyn.jpg

..and that website you're so fond of:

http://www.trek5.com/caps/tng/101-102/index_2.htm

thumbnails TNG101_141.jpg to TNG101_150.jpg.

And therefore, you are forced to claim the stupid idea that both sections of the ship magically dropped out of warp 90 times faster than the stardrive section could. Also, since Picard said he was going to reverse power just enough to let the saucer section get out ahead, the saucer section must have managed this feat without warp engines to reverse!

Your position is stupid. You ignore the canon method of showing warp travel, and the instances from this very episode that prove you wrong.

Fool.

The shot of the ship is from a stationary location, and we see the ship turnon a dime and go flying back toward the Q. When it does so, there is no"warp flash" of the ship going back into warp. Why?

Because the scene changed to Picard stroking his chin instead of showing the warp flash.

There wasn't time for them to go to warp, as I already showed you.

Because it neverdropped out of warp to begin with.
(To make it easier on the reader, BaldStar is referring to these screencaps:

TNG101_145.jpg
TNG101_146.jpg
TNG101_148.jpg
TNG101_150.jpg

All of which clearly show that the E-D was NOT at warp, due to the absence of a warp effect. Clearly in line with the facts of the show, since the saucer section can't maintain warp by itself.

There is no warp effect when the observation point is stationary, as it is in those scenes. It's just the same as the high-warp flybys we saw earlier in the episode, and all the other examples of warp flybys past stationary observation points throughout TNG. Just because the ship was turning around this time and not flying by does not mean the ship was not at warp. Further, your argument that the saucer section can't maintain warp by itself ignores the fact that it also can't reverse warp power by itself. It takes time for a warp-driven object to fall out of warp, as evidenced by the fact that Picard had to reverse power just enough for the stardrive section to back off a bit, as we saw. If the saucer would drop out of warp the moment it separated, the ship would have been destroyed, dumbass.

There is then a moment's reaction shot of Picard, lasting about three
seconds. It should be noted that this is not long enough to allow for the
special effect of the ship going into warp that you see at the end of the
opening credits.
Red Herring. Its more than enough time for them to go to warp, as even from a standstill, they've done it faster (Q Who?) Its amazing how much a Trekkie will whore himself to try to win an argument.

What scene of "Q Who?" The shot of the ship zipping forward and turning right?

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-27 12:47pm

DarkStar, are you seriously trying to tell us that the shots of the stardrive section that we see (without the warp effects) were taken from a stationary position of a ship at warp speed? If the ship was moving anywhere near the speed of light (or faster, for that matter) we would hardly be able to see the Enterprise for a few frames. Either RL science, or ST canon disagrees with your theory that the ship was at warp the whole time (or both). The Enterprise's stardrive was clearly not moving at anywhere near the speed of light, and certainly not any faster. Your theory is wrong.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2002-07-27 01:41pm

DarkStar wrote: Yup, canon is so "silly".
You would appear to think so, given how you ignore it so readily.

As shown in this thread, I'm the one sticking to canon. You're not.

You are the one who withdrew from the TOS argument after I proved your stupid lies were wrong.

Sorry, I just didn't have the time to keep cutting and pasting the truth to you, since, like an ignorant jackass, you can't accept the truth.

In short, early TNG-era FX sometimes made the 'error' of trying to show warp-driven ships at warp from a stationary observation point,

Concession Accepted.[/quote]

Yep, you do think canon Trek is "silly".
Tell me how your "Tng-era effects" whine enters into the canon of Star Trek?

What you show here is Q's ball. Not the E-D.
No shit. That is Q's ball chasing the Enterprise at high warp.

Oh, so now you have canon proof that Q uses a warp drive? Please state it.

Bullshit. Moments later with reversed engines, it took the stardrive section six seconds to drop out of warp.

So? They did it faster before the turning scene. Its canon; it happened.

Even when Kirk's Enterprise

Kirk's Enterprise has nothing to do with this thread. Please stay on topic.

Your claim is that because you haven't watched enough TNG to know how warp drive is shown,

I've never claimed that. Fuckface.

Showing warp-effect...
No shit. The Enterprise is the observation point, and it is mobile.

Doesn't matter. Warp effect is present. THAT matters.

[snip more loving crew shots that have nothing to do with warp effects]
You're the one who doesn't know TNG.

Oh no....I don't know TNG! How will I live with myself?

I know enough about it to kick your ass in every discussion.

Yes, idiot, these are the exact same screencaps I made. padding your post with such useless crap is hardly impressing anyone.
This is the same message I smacked you down with before, moron.

Ah, I see. You're just blindly cutting and pasting bullshit without checking if the facts are still relevant. I see.

And therefore, you are forced to claim the stupid idea that both sections of the ship magically dropped out of warp 90 times faster than the stardrive section could.

I'm not forced to claim anything, as the canon speaks for itself: The stardrive section was NOT AT WARP when it made the turn.

Your position is stupid. You ignore the canon method of showing warp travel, and the instances from this very episode that prove you wrong.

Your position is idiotic. You ignore the canon which shows when a ship IS and ISN'T at warp, and deliver an instance to attempt to prove your retard theory which has nothing to do with the E-D and warp drive.

Idiot. Concession Accepted.

DarkStar · Post by **DarkStar** » 2002-07-27 05:45pm

Master of Ossus wrote:DarkStar, are you seriously trying to tell us that the shots of the stardrive section that we see (without the warp effects) were taken from a stationary position of a ship at warp speed? If the ship was moving anywhere near the speed of light (or faster, for that matter) we would hardly be able to see the Enterprise for a few frames. Either RL science, or ST canon disagrees with your theory that the ship was at warp the whole time (or both). The Enterprise's stardrive was clearly not moving at anywhere near the speed of light, and certainly not any faster. Your theory is wrong.

Yes, yes, I know it was silly to show warp-driven ships flying by in what appeared to be realspace. That's probably why they pretty much stopped doing that later in the series. The fact remains, though, that they showed it that way, and it is canon. That, plus the canon facts of how quickly a ship can drop out of warp, plus the plot of the episode, all serve to make Darth Mullet's argument stupid, and contrary to canon.

The Enterprise-D stardrive section pulled a hairpin turn at warp speed. Deal with it.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-27 05:55pm

DumbShit, you moron! I was pointing out the fact that if the camera was as stationary as you claim, even if the Enterprise was able to generate that tight a turning radius at that speed (almost laughable for its improbability, given ST technology), the Enterprise would not have been within the view of a stationary camera for anywhere near enough time to create those pretty screen shots that you posted. The ship would be there one instant, and gone the next! Even if the ship started its turn right next to the camera, it would just be a little speck in the distance by the time the next frame rolled around. The stardrive section could not have been moving at warp speeds during that turn. Otherwise what we saw on camera could not possibly have happened. It HAD to have dropped out of warp for everything we saw to be fully explained.

How does the canon fact of how quickly a ship can drop out of warp count as a point against Lord Poe? It would seem to ADD weight to his argument, because it would potentially explain how the Stardrive section dropped out of warp so quickly and then executed the turn.

DarkStar · Post by **DarkStar** » 2002-07-27 06:08pm

Lord Poe wrote:
DarkStar wrote: Yup, canon is so "silly".
You would appear to think so, given how you ignore it so readily.
As shown in this thread, I'm the one sticking to canon. You're not.

1. You ignore canon representations of warp speed without warp stars.
2. You ignore canon fact about how long it takes the ships to drop out of warp.
3. You ignore the necessary plot elements of the episode.

All this, because you see warp-speed ships sometimes shown with warp star effects, and assume it is a universal idea.

You are the one who withdrew from the TOS argument after I proved your stupid lies were wrong.
Sorry, I just didn't have the time to keep cutting and pasting the truth to you, since, like an ignorant jackass, you can't accept the truth.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl ... om&rnum=55

Halfway down

In short, early TNG-era FX sometimes made the 'error' of trying to show warp-driven ships at warp from a stationary observation point,
Concession Accepted.

Yep, you do think canon Trek is "silly".
Tell me how your "Tng-era effects" whine enters into the canon of Star Trek?[/quote]

It is not whining... I am telling you and showing you the canon facts of Star Trek. Just because you want to ignore them is not my problem, and makes you look even stupider than your hair does.

What you show here is Q's ball. Not the E-D.
No shit. That is Q's ball chasing the Enterprise at high warp.

Oh, so now you have canon proof that Q uses a warp drive? Please state it.

Oooh, now there's a dishonest debating tactic. I never said Q was using warp drive. I said he was at warp speed. Tasha confirms this by reading off his speed in the episode.

Not that I'm surprised you would ignore canon facts like these.

Bullshit. Moments later with reversed engines, it took the stardrive section six seconds to drop out of warp.

So? They did it faster before the turning scene. Its canon; it happened.

What the hell are you talking about? The Enterprise wasn't at warp earlier in the episode, until she went to warp to escape the Q wall.

Even when Kirk's Enterprise
Kirk's Enterprise has nothing to do with this thread. Please stay on topic.

Any starship which loses warp propulsion is a valid comparison to the saucer section, which by your own surprisingly canon belief has no warp engines of its own.

Your claim is that because you haven't watched enough TNG to know how warp drive is shown,
I've never claimed that. Fuckface.

Quite true, you've never claimed not to have watched enough TNG. But it shows.

Showing warp-effect...
No shit. The Enterprise is the observation point, and it is mobile.
Doesn't matter. Warp effect is present. THAT matters.

The fact that it is mobile matters, whether you choose to ignore the fact or not.

[snip more loving crew shots that have nothing to do with warp effects]
You're the one who doesn't know TNG.

Oh no....I don't know TNG! How will I live with myself?

I know enough about it to kick your ass in every discussion.

What, like this one?

Puh-leeze. The stardrive section pulled a hairpin turn at high warp. Deal with it.

Yes, idiot, these are the exact same screencaps I made. padding your post with such useless crap is hardly impressing anyone.
This is the same message I smacked you down with before, moron.
Ah, I see. You're just blindly cutting and pasting bullshit without checking if the facts are still relevant. I see.

It is still valid, and you obviously didn't read it before. Otherwise, one would hope you would have dropped your stupid claims.

Of course, that would be giving you too much credit.

And therefore, you are forced to claim the stupid idea that both sections of the ship magically dropped out of warp 90 times faster than the stardrive section could.

I'm not forced to claim anything, as the canon speaks for itself: The stardrive section was NOT AT WARP when it made the turn.

If the canon speaks for itself, why are you putting your hand over its mouth by ignoring the fact that warp drive, when shown from a stationary observation point, would not be shown with warp stars? Why are you holding it down and tying it up so you don't have to watch it gesture or draw pictures in the sand to you about the fact that it took six seconds to drop out of warp with reverse power? Why are you stripping and butt-raping the Trek canon so you don't have to acknowledge the fact that the stardrive section made that turn at warp speeds?

Your position is stupid. You ignore the canon method of showing warp travel, and the instances from this very episode that prove you wrong.
Your position is idiotic. You ignore the canon which shows when a ship IS and ISN'T at warp, and deliver an instance to attempt to prove your retard theory which has nothing to do with the E-D and warp drive.

What, like the Enterprise at high warp without warp stars?

Idiot. Concession Accepted.

You misspelled "offerred".

DarkStar · Post by **DarkStar** » 2002-07-27 06:12pm

Master of Ossus wrote:DumbShit, you moron! I was pointing out the fact that if the camera was as stationary as you claim, even if the Enterprise was able to generate that tight a turning radius at that speed (almost laughable for its improbability, given ST technology), the Enterprise would not have been within the view of a stationary camera for anywhere near enough time to create those pretty screen shots that you posted. The ship would be there one instant, and gone the next!

No fucking shit, Sherlock. I recognize the fact. However, that is not how warp speed is shown in the canon. You can either accept the canon despite the scientific inconsistency, or you can place science over canon.

Of course, if you do that, you might as well stop debating.

How does the canon fact of how quickly a ship can drop out of warp count as a point against Lord Poe? It would seem to ADD weight to his argument, because it would potentially explain how the Stardrive section dropped out of warp so quickly and then executed the turn.

What? For Poe's point to be correct, the stardrive section, which takes six seconds to drop out of high warp with reverse power, would have had to do this in 1/90th the time. I really don't see how that helps his case at all.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-27 06:30pm

Look, DumbShit, here we have an example of something that doesn't appear to make sense unless we interpret it the way that Mr. Poe is telling us to. If you say that the stardrive never dropped out of warp, we can only assume that warp speed is nowhere near the speed of light. Since this is obviously not true, we must assume that the stardrive DID drop out of warp. You are falling for the fallacy of "dialogue over visual effects." The visual effects clearly showed that the ship was not moving at light speed. This we cannot write up as a visual effects screw-up. We must, therefore, assume that the ship dropped out of warp.

We have never conclusively seen the stardrive decelerate at its maximum value at any time during the series, so our conclusion should be that the stardrive was able to do so at any time, but that it had not for unclear reasons all of the other times in the series.

It is actually very unusual for us to see things in which we KNOW that there is an upper limit to technology. This is a rare occurance. More often we can only find the lower limits to technologies we see in Sci-fi when we see an example of a technology being used. This just has to be written up as one of those times, DarkStar. Deal with it, jack ass.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-07-27 06:32pm

I made an animation from Poe's stills to help prove his argument. The E-D is cleary out of warp while it's turning.

http://gallery.passion4art.com/members/ ... ldyani.gif
[Warning to fellow 56Kers, it's 445k!!]

Personally, I don't know where FuckFace is getting his conclusions.

Spanky The Dolphin · Post by **Spanky The Dolphin** » 2002-07-27 06:35pm

Oh, and Poe, I want to apologise for using your images without your permission first. Hope you don't mind too much. I'll take it down in about a week or so.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-27 06:42pm

Thanks, Spanky. BTW, you will notice that both the before and after shots of this maneuver clearly showed the stars moving in the classic "warp effect," but while the maneuver was going on no such effects can be observed.

Doomriser · Post by **Doomriser** » 2002-07-27 07:07pm

Hey Dorkstar, go watch "Arsenal of Freedom [TNG]" If the saucer separation sequence contains supposed GFX errors, how come they reuse the separation sequence in its entirety in another episode? Clearly, the producers accepted the scene entirely.

Besides, GFX errors are irrelevant. One could spend years arguing what is or isn't a GFX error. If its on-screen, its canon.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2002-07-27 09:13pm

1. You ignore canon representations of warp speed without warp stars.

Nope, you ignore clear canon visual evidence which shows that the stardrive is NOT AT WARP when it made its turn. Concession Accepted.

2. You ignore canon fact about how long it takes the ships to drop out of warp.

Nope, you ignore clear canon visual evidence which shows that the E-D DID in fact, drop out of warp almost immediately. Concession Accepted.

3. You ignore the necessary plot elements of the episode.

You ignore the fact that "plot elements" means about as much as your mom wondering if she should get an abortion now or later.

All this, because you see warp-speed ships sometimes shown with warp star effects, and assume it is a universal idea.

All this, because you refuse to accept clear canon visual evidence which shows that the stardrive is NOT AT WARP when it made its turn. Concession Accepted.

It is not whining... I am telling you and showing you the canon facts of Star Trek.

Canon facts do not contain "Tng-era effects were different! Waaaa!"

Oooh, now there's a dishonest debating tactic. I never said Q was using warp drive.

Yes you did. To prove there was no "warp effect" during warp, you offered up Q's ball. You've yet to prove Q needs to HAVE a "warp effect". Concession Accepted.

Any starship which loses warp propulsion

Kirk's Enterprise has nothing to do with this thread. Please stay on topic.

The fact that it is mobile matters, whether you choose to ignore the fact or not.

Doesn't matter. Warp effect is present. THAT matters.

I know enough about it to kick your ass in every discussion.
What, like this one?
Yup. And by using canon visual evidence you want to ignore. Imagine that.
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyi.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyj.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyk.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyl.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldym.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyn.jpg

If the canon speaks for itself, why are you putting your hand over its mouth by ignoring the fact that warp drive, when shown > from a stationary observation point, would not be shown with warp stars?

Q's ball isn't the E-D. Concession Accepted.
Why are you holding it down and tying it up so you don't have to watch it gesture or draw pictures in the sand to you about the fact that it took six seconds to drop out of warp with reverse power?

This canonically happened in the episode. Concession Accepted.
Why are you stripping and butt-raping the Trek canon so you don't have to acknowledge the fact that the stardrive section made that turn at warp speeds?

The canon speaks for itself: The stardrive section was NOT AT WARP when it made the turn.
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyi.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyj.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyk.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyl.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldym.jpg
http://h4h.com/louis/baldyn.jpg

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2002-07-27 09:16pm

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:Oh, and Poe, I want to apologise for using your images without your permission first. Hope you don't mind too much. I'll take it down in about a week or so.

Not a problem!

Cal Wright · Post by **Cal Wright** » 2002-07-28 12:34am

'What is going on here!' exclaimed Cal Wright as he entered the warehouse. Standing in a half circle were a group of teen super sleuths, and a dog. One was tall young man with blond hair, white shirt and an orange neckerchief. The next one was a slim red haired girl with a purple dress and hips that cried jailbate. Next to the attracitve barely eighteen red, was a girl with an orange sweater and glasses, apparently the brains of the operation. Even stranger was the duo at the end of the group. A tall slim jim guy with facial hair that hadn't been shaved in some time. His partner in crime was a brown dog, that...could talk?!?

'Mr. Wright we have finally apprehended the culpret of the 'Ignore cannon right in front of your face thread.'. Said Daphney the red haired whore.
'We believe he has been trying to inflate his post count at the Stardestroyer.net boards. He is none other than Mr. Poe himself!'

'Blasphemy you shameful excuse for a Wing Commander.' Outraged Wright looked at Shaggy and Scoop for an explanation.

'Like don't look at me man. I'm just looking for something to eat.'
'Yeah, yeah, munchies, heheheheh.' The dog laughed.

'I believe I can explain here.' Velma made her way to the center of attention. 'The culpret here, known as Darkstar is none other than Chris O'Farrell.' Everyone gasped and stepped back as the mask was removed and the truth revealed.

'I would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for these medlesome kids!!!' Chris yelled out.

'Tsk, tsk tsk, the Falcon can still dance around the Defiar while peppering her hull. Alright boys, take em away.' Wright motioned for the thread police to drag the criminal to a dark alley were he will be beaten profusally.

'Wait, wait! Fred, are you doing anything this weekend?' Chris asked.

'That's...just sick.' Wright cringed as he slapped the mask back on Chris/Darkstars' head. Then everyone laughed a harty laugh.

Look kids, don't ignore the cannon facts. Now we have this shitfest excuse of a thread because more than ONE person could not use thier eyes but instead thier ass when debating. Clearly, the E-D made no sharp turns during Warp.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-28 12:40am

I seriously cannot believe what he is trying to tell us. It makes NO sense. He appears to be deliberately disregarding what we see on screen in favor of a crappy, half-baked explanation he probably thought up just to argue with his arch-nemesis, Lord Poe. What he fails to realize is that in order to have an arch-nemesis, the two people must be reasonably well matched. That is, one cannot be much smarter/stronger/less hirstute than the other one. The problem is, well... Lord Poe is much smarter than he is and does not contradict what is seen on screen just to make posts. And DumbShit is, well.... Dumb as shit.

DarkStar · Post by **DarkStar** » 2002-07-28 01:12pm

Master of Ossus wrote:Look, DumbShit, here we have an example of something that doesn't appear to make sense unless we interpret it the way that Mr. Poe is telling us to. If you say that the stardrive never dropped out of warp, we can only assume that warp speed is nowhere near the speed of light. Since this is obviously not true, we must assume that the stardrive DID drop out of warp.

So every time they are at warp speed (no matter the plot), you would like to assume that the ship is at impulse unless there are warp stars. Well, that's fine, you can go and do that, but you're blatantly ignoring canon Trek visual representation when you do so.

You are falling for the fallacy of "dialogue over visual effects."

No, I am not. You and Poe keep ignoring the point which I have demonstrated... the visual effects of warp drive do not always require warp stars. The situation where this is known to occur is when the observation point is stationary.

Your ignorance of this point has forced you into a position where you must claim that the Trek canon is self-contradictory in every instance where warp drive is shown without warp stars.

A far better solution would be to simply take the canon for what it shows and says and determine its internal consistency that way, not force your own beliefs upon it. That's why you're ending up with contradictions.

We have never conclusively seen the stardrive decelerate at its maximum value at any time during the series, so our conclusion should be that the stardrive was able to do so at any time, but that it had not for unclear reasons all of the other times in the series.

Picard ordered reverse power to bring them to a stop, and it took six seconds. The saucer section would not have the luxury of reverse warp power, so it must have taken the saucer longer to drop out of warp than six seconds. Poe argues that the saucer dropped out of warp in 1/90th the time.

Do the math.

DarkStar · Post by **DarkStar** » 2002-07-28 01:15pm

Doomriser wrote:Hey Dorkstar, go watch "Arsenal of Freedom [TNG]" If the saucer separation sequence contains supposed GFX errors, how come they reuse the separation sequence in its entirety in another episode? Clearly, the producers accepted the scene entirely.

Besides, GFX errors are irrelevant. One could spend years arguing what is or isn't a GFX error. If its on-screen, its canon.

I'm not claiming an FX error.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-07-28 01:21pm

If you are not claiming an FX error, what the hell are you claiming? You're saying that the ship is moving at more than the speed of light, when we can clearly see that it is not. If it was moving faster than the speed of light, wouldn't we see it moving faster than the speed of light on camera? We have seen GCS's, and other ships, drop out of warp in less than 6 seconds. Are you saying that the stardrive section takes 6 seconds to drop out of warp, the saucer section takes longer than six seconds to drop out of warp, but together they drop out of warp in less time? That makes no sense, DimwittedStar.

Basically, DumbStar, you are either saying that there was an FX error, or you are telling us that ships do not have to look like they are traveling faster than the speed of light in order to be traveling faster than the speed of light. In either case, your argument is flawed and your position is inconsistent.

DarkStar · Post by **DarkStar** » 2002-07-28 01:34pm

Lord Poe wrote:
1. You ignore canon representations of warp speed without warp stars.

Nope, you ignore clear canon visual evidence which shows that the stardrive is NOT AT WARP when it made its turn. Concession Accepted.

You base your belief on the argument that warp stars must accompany warp speeds... a belief based on your ignorance of canon facts contrary to that belief. Concession accepted.

2. You ignore canon fact about how long it takes the ships to drop out of warp.

Nope, you ignore clear canon visual evidence which shows that the E-D DID in fact, drop out of warp almost immediately. Concession Accepted.

Same problem as above. You are attempting to rewrite the canon of Trek to suit your narrow vision. Concession accepted.

3. You ignore the necessary plot elements of the episode.

You ignore the fact that "plot elements" means about as much as your mom wondering if she should get an abortion now or later.

More of your "Trek canon is silly" belief, I see, along with the idea that you are at liberty to ignore it.

All this, because you see warp-speed ships sometimes shown with warp star effects, and assume it is a universal idea.

All this, because you refuse to accept clear canon visual evidence which shows that the stardrive is NOT AT WARP when it made its turn. Concession Accepted.

You made the error of assuming that warp must be represented with warp stars. Now that you have been shown this is not true, you make the error of refusing to accept it. The first was stupidity, the second was a decision to lie.

It is not whining... I am telling you and showing you the canon facts of Star Trek.

Canon facts do not contain "Tng-era effects were different! Waaaa!"

Ah, but they do. Your refusal to accept this doesn't alter the fact. Warp drive was usually not shown from a stationary position in later TNG-era episodes... this does not refute the fact that when it was done, it was done without warp stars.

Oooh, now there's a dishonest debating tactic. I never said Q was using warp drive.
Yes you did. To prove there was no "warp effect" during warp, you offered up Q's ball. You've yet to prove Q needs to HAVE a "warp effect". Concession Accepted.

I said he was at "high warp" and "warp speed", both of which are confirmed by Tasha. It is a lie for you to claim that I suggested he was using warp drive.

And since you obviously have the episode available, you know as well as I do that the Enterprise-D passed moments before the Q fireball, with the same background star effect. Any suggestion to the contrary is a lie on your part.

Any starship which loses warp propulsion

Kirk's Enterprise has nothing to do with this thread. Please stay on topic.

It lost warp propulsion; the saucer 'lost' it when it separated from the stardrive section. It is just another perfectly relevant canon fact you choose to ignore.

The fact that it is mobile matters, whether you choose to ignore the fact or not.

Doesn't matter. Warp effect is present. THAT matters.

Yes, and the ship is mobile, which fits nicely with my point. Concession accepted.

Yup. And by using canon visual evidence you want to ignore. Imagine that.

Your canon visual evidence is absolutely perfect. However, you never troubled yourself to check and see if your assumption that warp speeds required warp stars in the background was true... I have shown you that your assumption was false, and you choose to ignore this evidence. I am not ignoring canon visuals... that is your game... I am ignoring your stupid argument that is contrary to canon fact.

If the canon speaks for itself, why are you putting your hand over its mouth by ignoring the fact that warp drive, when shown > from a stationary observation point, would not be shown with warp stars?

Q's ball isn't the E-D. Concession Accepted.

The Enterprise passed moments before the screenshot was taken. You know this, if you watched the episode you've made screenshots from. Concession accepted.

Why are you holding it down and tying it up so you don't have to watch it gesture or draw pictures in the sand to you about the fact that it took six seconds to drop out of warp with reverse power?

This canonically happened in the episode. Concession Accepted.

Concession accepted? This disproves your point, fool.

Why are you stripping and butt-raping the Trek canon so you don't have to acknowledge the fact that the stardrive section made that turn at warp speeds?

The canon speaks for itself: The stardrive section was NOT AT WARP when it made the turn.

I see that logic, reason, and evidence are lost on you. Nevertheless, the fact remains that the stardrive section made a high warp turn with a radius of just a few kilometers.

Any further attempts on your part to argue the contrary are doomed to failure, because your argument rests on ignorance of canon fact.

DarkStar · Post by **DarkStar** » 2002-07-28 01:37pm

Master of Ossus wrote:If you are not claiming an FX error, what the hell are you claiming? You're saying that the ship is moving at more than the speed of light, when we can clearly see that it is not.

You do realize that any time the ship is at warp speeds, we shouldn't be able to see it, right?

We have seen GCS's, and other ships, drop out of warp in less than 6 seconds.

Examples?

Basically, DumbStar, you are either saying that there was an FX error, or you are telling us that ships do not have to look like they are traveling faster than the speed of light in order to be traveling faster than the speed of light. In either case, your argument is flawed and your position is inconsistent.

My position is perfectly consistent, and is consistent with all canon Trek.

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