Some classic Borg arguments

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Sothis
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Some classic Borg arguments

Post by Sothis »

I refer you all, to the wonder that is Shaolin Dolomite...
ummm how can the borg NOT adapt to firepower? its what they do. im not saying that the emps wont take out one or two, but to say that the borg wont adapt?

what makes you think that? that have adapted and assimilated every other huminod they have come in contact with? your firepower means nothing to the collective. destroy 100 ships, its means nothing, they have trillions of drones, and millions of ships.

and whats stoping them from beaming aboard your ships and assimilating you?

the emps cant stop the borg.
cubes are more manuvarable, by the time you turn you ship so your, so called gigaton lazers have them in sight, you ship is already ours, we have teleported on your bridge, assimliated your tech (canon) and assimlated your people (canon) so i ask again, what makes you think that one SD, could take one cube?
millions of ships, was said in voy, ill look up the esp. for you.

in first contact, it was picard and his still hearing the voices of the collective that allowed the fed ships to penetrate Borg shields in the first place. Add to that each ship was changing the freq. Of their weapons, it makes it a lot harder to adapt.

The Borg will have no such problem with SW. once they adapt to your only real weapon type. Its over for you.
Wow, that’s really easy to say when you don’t know how your own shields work. And I would love a quote where it says A.) you have neutronium in your armor, and b.) and a quote where it says we cant beam through neutronium. And finnaly c.) how your shields work at all.

And the same ST who were so devastating in the raid of the tantiven (sp) IV ?? where they couldn’t kill 5 guys in a hall way? And if your blasters are so devastating why didn’t those 5 rebels get totally blown apart? Their insides should have been sprayed all over the walls, but that’s not what happened. What happened was they got shot, they fell down, some even fell down in agony, hardly a quick death. And then there was the shot that leia took to her arm on endor which was not at all a grazing shot, because nothing hit the wall behind her, she got shot straight in the arm and her arm was barely bruised. So I see no reason why a Borg, who is superior to a humanoid on any day of the week (given the fact that they have nano-probes that regenerate them when they are wounded.) I find it hard to believe that, your scenario would play out like that at all. More likely it will be the Borg beaming into your engine rooms, and your bridge (I have never seen or heard of, or read, that ST are positioned on the bridge. And those imperials are easy pickings for a Borg., they will assimilated your ship, and with it your technologies, so in the future all your weapons will be completely useless against them.

And your blasters are plasma, hardly unknown technology in the ST galaxy.

Oh, and by the way, there are hirogen Borg, (unimatrix zero) and the voth are a nomadic people, they don’t have boarders, just because voyager met them in one place doesn’t at all mean that they stayed there. And the voth (I pretty sure now that you didn’t see that eps. and are going on 2nd hand info) are HARDLY primitive compared to the federation, their city ship is several km larger than a SD. In fact they made the journey from the alpha quadrant to the delta quadrant, when humans were still monkeys.
Also the hirgen are nomadic people as well, with no established boarders, in fact the largest concentration of them was a space station that they had turned into a giant holo-deck. and the first time VOY see the hirogen its 10,000 lightyears from borg space.
As you can see, he repeats a great many Borg fallacies.

More on the next post.
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Post by Sothis »

Well barely is still more maneuverable than an ISD. And yes you can SHOOT in any direction but since ISD hardly hit anything I don’t think that’s going to be a problem, and as far as your gigaton lazers which are located on the (port and starboard) sides of your ships, if a Borg cube stays in front or behind you. Your toast. And that’s before they adapt to your weapons. After you destroy one with your gigatons, the next one wont be so easy.

And you do realize that the Borg are not federation don’t you? Borg technologies are FAR superior to anything the federation has. Its canon that they beam through shields. So I don’t really understand why you are brining the federation into a fight that is just about Borg and ISD….

And ties don’t have shields at all, and they hardly carry gigaton lazers. Interceptors and bombers have shields, but still it would be like a fly to a rhino. The cube is going to fly right through you.

Not really ion pulse, which the equivalent to your ion canon. Have been used on the Borg before, and yes it will work once, but what about the next cube? And the one after that?
A reply to one of my posts...
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Do the Borg have limits to what they can adapt to? Yes- and those limits are defined by power generation- it all comes down to power
No, its limited in terms of biology. That’s the point your not getting. Their loss to species 8472 had nothing to do with power.
Species 8472 demonstrated firepower considerably greater than the Borg- they are after all, capable of destroying planets (even a funky chain-reaction-style weapon like theirs is going to need a lot more power than a Borg cube could generate), and the Borg, even after continued contact with 8472, were unable to adapt to their firepower.
The reason they could adapt to the power, is because they couldn’t assimilate species 8472 itself. Once they assimilated a ship, once they have assimilated 8472 itself, the out come would have been a different story. In that story TIME was a factor. And the Borg had ample opportunity to assimilate 8472 but COULDN’T because of their IMMUNE system.
What the warsie side is trying to contend is that the immune system of 8472 somehow extends to you. And what the trek side has said repeatedly is that you do not share the biological make up that 8472 has. You are human, (or humanoid, for the nit-pickers) and have all the trappings of a human. We have seen humans get assimilated. And your technology while different is still based of a power source hooked to something else with wires, that connect it to something else that does the function. Did you see anything on the 8472 ship that reminded you have anything the empire has? Was there a control panel somewhere that sparked an image of an ISD in you memory?
Yes your guns are powerful, (according to ics, not wong) and I guess wither I like it or not, its canon. But your power is built off of technology, its built off of power cores and wires, and to say that the Borg cant touch you, when all we ever see is them do is tear apart a world of humanoids in HOURS. Excuse us for thinking that you guys either just don’t know about trek at all, or that you guys are just to stubborn to except the fact. And remember that in no way am I saying that from the start the Borg are immune, that and I repeat THAT I AM NOT DOING. I am saying however, that once they assimilate a ship or two. Its over for you.
In First Contact, the combined firepower of the Federation field had weakened the cube enough so that it's hull had taken damage and it's powergrid was fluctuating.
Because picard had heard still the collective, and knew the weak spot and he told everyone to fire on the same spot in the same amount of time, not only where they changing their frequency (which by the way is STANDARD procurers when dealing with the Borg on any level) but they fired everything they had at the same spot.

If the empire can do this let me know, I would love to hear about the guy who can hear the Borg, and know exactly where to shoot, and get every other ship captain to shoot at the same spot accurately…
Borg adaptation abilities are nothing if you overwhelm them with sheer firepower- if the ship's power source only generates enough energy to hold back a 100 gigaton blast, and you hit it with a 1000 gigaton blast, then regardless of adaptation abilities, there is simply too much power to hold back. The Borg are fried.
You have no idea how Borg shielding will act, im not saying that we are immune to your weapons, (like many warses…..) I am saying that they will adapt. I am saying that if they take over your ship, then its now our technology and they will convert your whole ship. Its not that they make new technology to counteract a threat. They use that SPECIES technology against them ALONG with all the technologies they have acquired from 10,000 other species so far.. And to say that no ship anywhere, will ever be in danger of the Borg, that the Borg will not be able to assimilate the falcon for example is crazy.
Could the falcon defeat the Borg? NO…
does the falcon have the same type of shielding that the empire uses…. Yes….
Could the Borg assimilate that technology….yes…..
could they then use that technologies and make a new shield for themselves….yes…..
Then could they defeat the empire…. Ummm yeah….
Could they then have the technology for hyperdirve….. yeah….
Could they then have the technology for plasma based weapons…. Yeah….
Could they then use that technology to build a BIG plasma based weapon …. Yeah.

And that’s just what happens if they caught the falcon, or a ship similar in function or nature…
And here is the canon bit…. They assimilate all technology (VOY drone)
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Post by Darth Wong »

Simple rule: if you cannot apply some kind of quantification to it, then you have no business stating in unambiguous terms what it can and can't do.
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Post by Sothis »

Darth Wong wrote:Simple rule: if you cannot apply some kind of quantification to it, then you have no business stating in unambiguous terms what it can and can't do.
Unfortunately, Shaolin can't seem to accept the idea that the Borg have any kind of weakness. It's like... it's like... a brick wall.
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Post by Penfold »

Somebody needs to beat this boy with the Canon Stick.

In "Dark Frontier," we see two things:

1) Voyager encounters a Borg scout of roughly the same size and hands it its ass. In "Drone," Voyager can't damage a much larger Sphere even with help from One.

2) We get to watch the Borg assimilate a world. The defending ships (20 of them) were able to damage the two Cubes and Diamond present. After Seven of Nine's suggested adaptation is implemented, the Diamond continued to shake and throw sparks for the rest of the scene. True, it was not as bad as before the adaptation, but it didn't stop, even when Seven witnessed the people being assimilated.

Most species shown in Trek field weapons on par with the Feds. The only statement about phaser power made in uncertain terms is from the TM (yes, yes, non-canon), and is pathetic compared to turbolasers. The demonstrated firepower isn't so hot, either. So if these piddly shots can damage a Borg ship after adaptation, that particular defense will be negligible against 200 gigaton turbolasers.


Regarding the Vong: at the end of the episode, either the scientist was pretty much banished to a minor colony. Nomadic people don't have colonies.

Now, on to "First Contact."

The idea that Picard was necessary to damage the Cube is a flat-out lie. Dialog and visuals both point to the Cube being damaged prior to the arrival of the E-E.

Furthermore, I don't believe that Picard retains the ability to listen in on the Collective. He didn't display that ability in "I, Borg." My theory is that he didn't so much become a remote listener as he was IMed by the Collective, but that is for a different discussion.

Try some of that. It should be a nice Judo kick-to-the-nuts for Shaolin. :wink:
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Post by Darth Fanboy »

Get Walper on it.
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Post by Robert Walper »

Darth Fanboy wrote:Get Walper on it.
I don't see what the point would be of me smacking down his arguements. Others here are doing a dandy job already. 8)

Besides, I seem to be too comfortavble being on the other end of the arguement. ;)
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Post by Robert Walper »

Sothis wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Simple rule: if you cannot apply some kind of quantification to it, then you have no business stating in unambiguous terms what it can and can't do.
Unfortunately, Shaolin can't seem to accept the idea that the Borg have any kind of weakness. It's like... it's like... a brick wall.
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Post by Duken »

Darth Fanboy wrote:Get Walper on it.
Kind of sad that was the first thing I thought of when I saw he had posted.
Sothis wrote:Unfortunately, Shaolin can't seem to accept the idea that the Borg have any kind of weakness.
Could the entire "We are the Borg, Resistance is Futile. Now go clean your pants" while cruising in a straght line be considered a weakness? ROB forgive them if they do that to a place like 40k Terra...

Tangent question for Walper: Would a group (~ 20-30) of weapon platforms around a planet be enough to stall the assimilation process?
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Post by Darth Fanboy »

Robert Walper wrote:
Darth Fanboy wrote:Get Walper on it.
I don't see what the point would be of me smacking down his arguements. Others here are doing a dandy job already. 8)

Besides, I seem to be too comfortavble being on the other end of the arguement. ;)
Because you are Pope Borgatine of the collective and all the other drones must look to you? I would think that a borg-wanker would actually listen to a borg expert. Hence my comment was only half comedic :p
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Post by Darth Lucifer »

Where was/is this guy's debate with you? (if it could be called that; debates usually involve thinking and logic).

Thanks for posting all that. I needed a good laugh. :lol:
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Post by Darth Servo »

Mario1470 wrote:Where was/is this guy's debate with you? (if it could be called that; debates usually involve thinking and logic).

Thanks for posting all that. I needed a good laugh. :lol:
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Post by Robert Walper »

Duken wrote: Tangent question for Walper: Would a group (~ 20-30) of weapon platforms around a planet be enough to stall the assimilation process?
The question is far to vague to give a solid answer. What kind of weapon platforms, how powerful? What do you mean by "stall"? Any distraction will stall an attack for an undefined period of time.

If assuming these platforms are the equivalent of First Contact era Federation starships, they would buy some time. But not very much; I'd wager not even enough to make basic evacuation preperations practical (depending upon previous warning time though).
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Post by Robert Walper »

Darth Fanboy wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:
Darth Fanboy wrote:Get Walper on it.
I don't see what the point would be of me smacking down his arguements. Others here are doing a dandy job already. 8)

Besides, I seem to be too comfortavble being on the other end of the arguement. ;)
Because you are Pope Borgatine of the collective and all the other drones must look to you? I would think that a borg-wanker would actually listen to a borg expert. Hence my comment was only half comedic :p
I know. :P But my reputation doesn't extend beyond SDN really. I just don't have time for other boards or fellow geeks beyond here. ;)
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Post by wilfulton »

Ask him if a Borg drone can withstand being struck over the head repeatedly with a log of frozen salami.

(just ask).
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Post by Robert Walper »

wilfulton wrote:Ask him if a Borg drone can withstand being struck over the head repeatedly with a log of frozen salami.

(just ask).
The better question would be, would the swinger of the salami be able to strike the drone repeatedly without it responding to said attack with force?
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Post by Stark »

Robert Walper wrote:The better question would be, would the swinger of the salami be able to strike the drone repeatedly without it responding to said attack with force?
The BEST question is demanding canon examples of borg recognising spicy smallgoods as a threat and reacting! :D
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