Finally working on the main website again!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-09-01 02:21am

I have finally figured out how to get working on the main website again. Of course, there is the slowly developing page of ROTS Revelations, but I have long been unhappy with the way the whole website is laid out. This is a structural problem which led me to feel a general sense of dissatisfaction and malaise.

I finally figured out the problem: the website is basically a collection of articles. The articles largely deal with technical issues. But its multiple objectives are often incompatible: one objective is to entertain, which a slightly tongue-in-cheek approach (and the fanfics) are designed to do. But another objective is to inform, which is what the more serious articles do. And finally, the third objective is to refute Trektard bullshit, which I have clumsily attempted to do by forcibly shoehorning Trekkie arguments and rebuttals into the site wherever they would fit: in the body of articles, in the Myths section, etc.

This is an extremely unfocused ad hoc approach, and it led to the site growing but not really flourishing, in the sense that its growth tended to produce more in the way of clunkiness and unwieldiness than organization. Articles that would otherwise be taut and clean are bloated and diffused by numerous attempts to anticipate Trektard objections and respond to them, and the whole Myths section is haphazardly organized, with divisions that seem much too arbitrary.

So I have decided that the solution to this problem is to split the Trektard arguments and rebuttals out of the website's articles. This will obviously take a long time, but I think that eventually (although this may take years), the site will be much better for it. The articles will lay out a position clearly and articulately, while anticipated objections and rebuttals will be handled elsewhere.

And where is "elsewhere"? Why of course, an Argument Database. I ported the code for this database over from my creationism website where a similar version has been running for some time. A test page is already up at http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Database/Search.php although it only has three arguments in it at this time, just hastily added in order to test the engine and get feedback on what people think of the idea.

So, what do you think? Does this overhaul make sense to you? Or do you think I should just forget about it and work on the ROTS pages and long-dormant fanfic? One of the reasons I've had trouble working on those pages was my general nagging dissatisfaction with the entire site, which has been weighing on my mind whenever I think about updating any part of it.

The Cleric · Post by **The Cleric** » 2005-09-01 02:24am

I like the idea of a more streamlined layout. However, I personally would like to see something on ROtS first. The fanfic can wait, but the analysis of the last movie can't

.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-09-01 02:34am

I have to agree finnish the ROTS analysis first then the main site after that work on fanfic, that's my opinion.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-09-01 02:36am

Lord Revan wrote:I have to agree finnish the ROTS analysis first then the main site after that work on fanfic, that's my opinion.

Ghetto edit:you could also change the colors in ROTS analysis pages to the same as rest of the site.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2005-09-01 05:53am

Organization is A and O in my experience. It doesn't matter much for a small website, but once you reach medium and continue to grow it's a critical factor for a pleasing, easy to navigate and understand layout, which in turn do much to seperate a good website from a bad one.

In other words, I'm wholly for a logical structure like the one outlined, although it is clearly a long-term project to fully work through. The goal should be that once the structure is implemented, one could simply add single standing articles to existing ones, or modify/update an old one without the necessity of touching the rest of the website to make it coherent.

As it is I mainly use the site index to find the page I'm looking for. Many pages tie into or after each other, but are sometimes hard to find in a logical order.

One problem with the Argument Database is the need to find the right keywords, kind of like the old text-based RPGs. I would recommend some kind of browse function added to it.

Ah, and there may still be some more relevations to add to the ROTS article, though I fear a discussion thread might just go bonkers again. For example, projectile weapons appear to be more common in the prequel era for some reason.

Ubiquitous · Post by **Ubiquitous** » 2005-09-01 09:10am

Maybe you could work on layout etc. until the ROTS DVD comes out, and then focus your attention on that? Every time a DVD comes out we always get new infomation - info that may be missed if you do your ROTS analysis now.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2005-09-01 10:42am

Good idea. Although it would be nice if the search engine could search the entire website. I know, that would probably be a royal pain in the ass. Glad to hear the good work continues though.

Dooey Jo · Post by **Dooey Jo** » 2005-09-01 01:12pm

nightmare wrote:One problem with the Argument Database is the need to find the right keywords, kind of like the old text-based RPGs. I would recommend some kind of browse function added to it.

There is one: "Show Complete list"

But I agree. An over-haul would be in order.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2005-09-01 02:18pm

Eventually I'll probably add a "Category" field so that the full list of arguments can be broken up into separate groups.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » 2005-09-01 03:11pm

Just to throw my hat into the ring, I think you should finish the ROTS page first. The site overhaul sounds like it will take quite a while to accomplish, and I'm pretty sure many people besides myself would like to see the Analysis page sometime soon in the near future.

Also agree about a "Category" drop-down field for the Argument Database

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-09-01 03:33pm

If I may make a small suggestion?

I have always admired the cleanness and simplicity of SWTC. Now, I'm not saying you should aspire to become another SWTC, but I think perhaps you could consider a similar format.

In other words, have a dispassionate, scientific analysis of each series under its own category. Show the calcs, accompanying canon/visual evidence (if available for the latter), and so forth.

THEN, have the comparison category-- rather like what your site is now, just a bit cleaned up.

And after that, you could go with the Arguments page.

Finally, link to the boards for anybody who wants further discussion.

To illustrate...

Code: Select all

 
        Star Trek    Star Wars
             \                  /
              \                /
               \              /
              Comparisons
                      |
                      \/
               Arguments
                      |
                      \/
         This message board

Just a thought, is all...

drachefly · Post by **drachefly** » 2005-09-01 03:57pm

I second that structural notion.

Also, if you're going to add a field, add it before you populate the database.

Also, your star wars propaganda front page looks cool and all, but it does make the nature of the site confusing. How about making that the head page just for the SW section?

Silver Jedi · Post by **Silver Jedi** » 2005-09-01 04:45pm

I'll toss my opinion in, for what it's worth.
I agree you should try to finnish the ROTS page some time soon, though it doesn't really have to be your primary focus right away. I like Elheru Aran's suggestion aboot organisation. You could have a page each on Imperial and federation technology in various catagories (similar to how you have it now), with links from each to the other page, and to a comparison page, and possably relavent database entries.

drachefly wrote:Also, your star wars propaganda front page looks cool and all, but it does make the nature of the site confusing. How about making that the head page just for the SW section?

You could also make a similar federation page ("alien invaders from another galaxy" and all that) to head the federation section.

Just my $0.02

Post by **Dalton** » 2005-09-01 10:06pm

Mike, I think you're an excellent writer and would love to see more fiction from you.

SCRawl · Post by **SCRawl** » 2005-09-01 10:19pm

Dalton wrote:Mike, I think you're an excellent writer and would love to see more fiction from you.

Seconded. You don't even need the qualification "for an engineer".

Bertie Wooster · Post by **Bertie Wooster** » 2005-09-01 10:20pm

I've been enjoying reading your web-site since 1998 and remember quite well eagerly awaiting the new chapters for Conquest as they came out. So as a long-time fan of the site, I believe it would be nicer over-hauling the website to once again making it a project of which you're proud and for which you're enthusiastic about making updates.

Setzer · Post by **Setzer** » 2005-09-02 02:43pm

I as well. However, I hadn't seen TNG yet, so I pictured Q as Desmond Lwellyn.

Srynerson · Post by **Srynerson** » 2005-09-03 12:04am

SCRawl wrote:
Dalton wrote:Mike, I think you're an excellent writer and would love to see more fiction from you.
Seconded. You don't even need the qualification "for an engineer".

Thirded. I'd prefer to see the fanfic completed first, then the RotS analysis, then, if you really feel the site needs it, the re-org. (I think the site's organization is fine myself.)

wilfulton · Post by **wilfulton** » 2005-09-03 11:44am

I always thought your site was pretty good the way it was, of course anymore, I mostly just go to it to use the handy calculators. The only thing I've really been wishing for was a means to calculate orbital velocities, but I've found calculators elsewhere for that.

Outside of that, I've never really noted any problems with it, and I've always found it both informative and entertaining.

Mark S · Post by **Mark S** » 2005-09-03 12:05pm

To keep the original style of the site yet make the changes, you could perhaps structure things like an Imperial basic training manual, with sections like 'Know Yourself', 'Know Your Enemy', 'Technologies Comparison', and 'History' (for the movie revelations pages). These would be hard fact sections. Then you add a 'Question and Answer Period' section to break out the smacking down of stupid assumptions and treck-tardery as you are hoping to do. It would be pretty close to what you have now but would be more in line with an impartial training tool since you want to cut the editorializing out of the articles.

As for timing, my buck-o-five is that the ROTS stuff needs to be added first for completeness of the site's information in general. After that, start reworking the layout. The fanfics should be something you work on when the inspiration hits you so they'll come when they come.

Ford Prefect · Post by **Ford Prefect** » 2005-09-03 07:10pm

The argument database is a good idea, if you ask me. It really would streamline other parts of the site. However, perhaps it would be better for you to get the ROTS pages up, as well of an update on that fanficition, which has lain dormant and cold for too long. It's a ghost ship for God's sake, it needs to be finished.

Trekdestroyer · Post by **Trekdestroyer** » 2005-09-03 10:31pm

I think this for one thing is long been put aside. I understand that the site is very low priority for Mike, but you know that old tune. I wish that this had come up long before now and that there wouldn't be this discussion. I can't imagine changing anything because the web site is good enough already. I was mentaly kicking around making a Spanish translation of the main site's articles and eventualy translating the Hate Mail pages. I haven't told Mike my idea, but I feel a PM will be needed for several reasons. First, what Mike posts is his intellectual property and I need his permission, and second, I need Mike to post this on his site. I guess if he approves, I might begin work right away and be done with an article every month or so...I don't want to take too long though.

Adrian Laguna · Post by **Adrian Laguna** » 2005-09-03 10:54pm

I would much prefer the ROTS Revelations page to be set-up as soon as possible. The Episodes I and II pages described a lot of things that I hadn't realized about the movies. They complimented and enhanced the experience of watching them.

Personally, the site layout is fine as is, but 'fine' doesn't mean it can't improve. Your ideas for site organization are interesting, I think that you should go ahead with them.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2005-09-12 06:19pm

A suggestion...

Since you have a large pool of people who are potentially eager to assist, you might consider "contracting out" the reconstruction of individual pages.

You've already established the basic parameters for the edits: discuss specific technologies on dedicated pages, removing the "versus" comparisons for their own dedicated pages. I think you have people on the board both willing and able to carry out these tasks to expedite the site revision. A few trusted lieutenants for editing and you should be able to update much of the content very quickly.

Post by **Vympel** » 2005-09-12 06:54pm

I'd like to see the site be extensively updated; the layout idea is IMO a good one, the search function is invaluable already in the canon database section.