ST/SW Weapons Ranges

Falkenhorst · Post by **Falkenhorst** » 2005-09-17 11:19am

Has there ever been a definitive breakdown of the ranges of various weapons in Trek and Wars posted here, based on the best evidence available? I've been browsing old ASVS topics and SDN and I have yet to find a comparative listing of weapon ranges. I'm also interested in fire control capability and sensor ranges and how that influences the effective range of the weapons in question. All the stuff I've seen seems to fluctuate back and forth based on what sources were used, so I guess my question is, what are the most generally accepted figures? If this has in fact been laid out somewhere else before, can someone post a link?

Alan Bolte · Post by **Alan Bolte** » 2005-09-17 12:03pm

Off the top of my head, SW heavy turbolasers, like the six to eight mounted on Star Destroyers, top out in the low tens of light minutes. This, however, is clearly assuming you can hit said target, considering it will take tens of minutes for your shot to get there. It helps to have tachyonic sensors, though I'm not sure if the speed(s?) of their sensor technologies have been properly quantified. The maximum, of course, would be hyperwave-based, which is essentially instantaneous across galactic distances. Away from that, though, it's going to vary quite a bit from weapon to weapon, based on aiming mechanism, fire control computers, etc.

In a fight, though, range just isn't going to be an issue. However far away a Trek ship can hit a target under optimal conditions, in normal combat they're lucky to be able to hit a target at the edge of visual range, and normally combat occurs at practically point-blank. This is the case with both torpedoes and phasers, because torpedoes generally seem to lack the manueverability and tracking capacity to hit an evading ship at longer ranges under common combat conditions. Wars ships, on the other hand, normally engage at the edge of or beyond visual range, and the two fleet combats we've seen in the movies are clearly established as unusual cases - interdiction of a fleeing invasion force in RotS, and unprecidented tactics in RotJ.

All my resources are elsewhere at the moment...

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-09-17 12:08pm

ST: standard combat range < 5km
SW:standard combat range(for capships) > 1000 km (infact anything <100km is point blank range))
from the "Star Wars vs Star Trek in Five Minutes" in the main page

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2005-09-17 01:38pm

ST: standard combat range < 5km

The problem here is that the FX people like to put multiple ships at spitting distance, while the writers are still thinking in TOS-style hundreds or thousands of kilometres. Just watch Yesterday's Enterprise; there's supposed to be two hundred kilometres between the E's in this shot.

It causes awkward descrepancies between what's said to be there and what's actually there.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-09-17 02:40pm

It causes awkward descrepancies between what's said to be there and what's actually there.

in those cases we normally go with what's actually there.

Besides I just copied Mike's numbers so don't complain to me.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2005-09-17 02:45pm

Lord Revan wrote:
It causes awkward descrepancies between what's said to be there and what's actually there.
in those cases we normally go with what's actually there.

Besides I just copied Mike's numbers so don't complain to me.

I wasn't complaining about your post.

Lord Revan · Post by **Lord Revan** » 2005-09-17 02:48pm

Bounty wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:
It causes awkward descrepancies between what's said to be there and what's actually there.
in those cases we normally go with what's actually there.

Besides I just copied Mike's numbers so don't complain to me.
I wasn't complaining about your post.

OK, Like I said if visual and dialoge conflict we generally(read: for intents and purposes always) go with the visuals.

Lord Sabre Ace · Post by **Lord Sabre Ace** » 2005-09-17 05:50pm

"The DBY-827's precise, long-range tracking mode enables it to hit a target vessel at distances of over ten light-minutes."- ROTS: ICS

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-09-17 09:57pm

Lord Sabre Ace wrote:"The DBY-827's precise, long-range tracking mode enables it to hit a target vessel at distances of over ten light-minutes."- ROTS: ICS

How far a gun can shoot is one thing. How far it can be targeted is another. For an example; just today I was shootin with my grandpa's .22 rifle. It could easily fire that little bit of lead over 200, 300 metres with the right inclination. However, it's not likely to hit anything beyond 20, 30 metres at most, certainly not without some sort of telescopic sight (which it's not made for). When you include motion into the equation, then it becomes even more complex.

The point is-- while the turbolasers of the Venator can certainly fire up to that distance, they would most undoubtedly be used in engagements at *much* shorter range than ten light-minutes...

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-09-17 10:06pm

The point is-- while the turbolasers of the Venator can certainly fire up to that distance, they would most undoubtedly be used in engagements at *much* shorter range than ten light-minutes...

That kind of range does count for something though. Think of it, an ISD BDZing your homeworld from literally beyond your sun.

The Original Nex · Post by **The Original Nex** » 2005-09-17 10:34pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
Lord Sabre Ace wrote: "The DBY-827's precise, long-range tracking mode enables it to hit a target vessel at distances of over ten light-minutes."- ROTS: ICS
How far a gun can shoot is one thing. How far it can be targeted is another. For an example; just today I was shootin with my grandpa's .22 rifle. It could easily fire that little bit of lead over 200, 300 metres with the right inclination. However, it's not likely to hit anything beyond 20, 30 metres at most, certainly not without some sort of telescopic sight (which it's not made for). When you include motion into the equation, then it becomes even more complex.

The point is-- while the turbolasers of the Venator can certainly fire up to that distance, they would most undoubtedly be used in engagements at *much* shorter range than ten light-minutes...

Sure they can be used in shorter ranger, but the ICS quote doesn't say that "The DBY-827 can fire bolts as far as ten light-minutes away," it says: "The DBY-827's precise, long-range tracking mode enables it to hit a target vessel at distances of over ten light-minutes."

So 10 Light Minutes IS how far it can be targetted.

Elheru Aran · Post by **Elheru Aran** » 2005-09-17 10:42pm

Noble Ire wrote:
The point is-- while the turbolasers of the Venator can certainly fire up to that distance, they would most undoubtedly be used in engagements at *much* shorter range than ten light-minutes...
That kind of range does count for something though. Think of it, an ISD BDZing your homeworld from literally beyond your sun.

Oh, I have no problem with that range being used on stations and planets, that kind of thing. It's just that when it comes to firing at ships, and the bolt takes ten minutes to get there... the ship's gonna sit there and suck it up? I don't think so

Lord Sabre Ace · Post by **Lord Sabre Ace** » 2005-09-17 11:31pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
Noble Ire wrote:
The point is-- while the turbolasers of the Venator can certainly fire up to that distance, they would most undoubtedly be used in engagements at *much* shorter range than ten light-minutes...
That kind of range does count for something though. Think of it, an ISD BDZing your homeworld from literally beyond your sun.
Oh, I have no problem with that range being used on stations and planets, that kind of thing. It's just that when it comes to firing at ships, and the bolt takes ten minutes to get there... the ship's gonna sit there and suck it up? I don't think so

It takes ten minutes to get there. But it would also take ten minutes to see it coming.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-09-17 11:47pm

It takes ten minutes to get there. But it would also take ten minutes to see it coming.

Long range sensors would register the bolt's energy signatures long before visual scanning could pick them up.

Lord Sabre Ace · Post by **Lord Sabre Ace** » 2005-09-17 11:58pm

Sorry, forgot about FTL sensors.

harbringer · Post by **harbringer** » 2005-09-18 12:12am

Hand phaser - 100m max on visuals.
Clone troopers rifle 7-15 km's in ATOC or the ICS for an exact number.

Verhicle mounted weapons:
ST - same as their hand weapons
SW - visually not been used at maximum range so the ICS here...

Ship mounted :
ST - visually not very far 5km more or less would be right, dialogue 300,000 was the maximum.
SW - visually line of sight, ICS as said elsewhere 10 light minutes (many orders of magnitude greater than the ST maximum).

The main problem is that the cannon policies are so very different for each franchise. Some trekkies try to ignore the ICS and also the fact that Gene Roddenberry stated "the only real star trek is what I say it is" or something to that effect. Going by Gene's statement then voyager, enterprise, deep space nine and TNG are all non cannon. B&B class everything on screen only and one novel as cannon. Star Wars anything not with an infinity label and not contradicted by the films is cannon. Thats why you get different numbers depending on the source.

nightmare · Post by **nightmare** » 2005-09-18 02:00am

General Veers: My Lord, the fleet has moved out of lightspeed. Comscan has detected an energy field protecting an area of the sixth planet of the Hoth System. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment.
Darth Vader: The Rebels are alerted to our presence. Admiral Ozzel came out of lightspeed too close to the system.
General Veers: He felt surprise was wiser...
Darth Vader: He is as clumsy as he is stupid. General, prepare your troops for a surface attack.
General Veers: Yes, my Lord.

This exchange suggests that Vader's original plan was to conduct a bombardment from far outside the Hoth system. Far, since already "too close to the system", means they were still outside the system. One could speculate what "system" actually means, but the explanation is clear: "the Hoth System".

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2005-09-18 08:37am

nightmare wrote:General Veers: My Lord, the fleet has moved out of lightspeed. Comscan has detected an energy field protecting an area of the sixth planet of the Hoth System. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment.
Darth Vader: The Rebels are alerted to our presence. Admiral Ozzel came out of lightspeed too close to the system.
General Veers: He felt surprise was wiser...
Darth Vader: He is as clumsy as he is stupid. General, prepare your troops for a surface attack.
General Veers: Yes, my Lord.

This exchange suggests that Vader's original plan was to conduct a bombardment from far outside the Hoth system. Far, since already "too close to the system", means they were still outside the system. One could speculate what "system" actually means, but the explanation is clear: "the Hoth System".

I doubt that as they wanted prisoners otherwise the AT-AT's would have opened at full power from long range and destroyed the base. Morelikely they could have sent in small strike teams after all the rebels couldn't have the complete system covered in sensors because that would be a deffinent give away.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2005-09-18 08:45am

dragon wrote:
nightmare wrote:General Veers: My Lord, the fleet has moved out of lightspeed. Comscan has detected an energy field protecting an area of the sixth planet of the Hoth System. The field is strong enough to deflect any bombardment.
Darth Vader: The Rebels are alerted to our presence. Admiral Ozzel came out of lightspeed too close to the system.
General Veers: He felt surprise was wiser...
Darth Vader: He is as clumsy as he is stupid. General, prepare your troops for a surface attack.
General Veers: Yes, my Lord.

This exchange suggests that Vader's original plan was to conduct a bombardment from far outside the Hoth system. Far, since already "too close to the system", means they were still outside the system. One could speculate what "system" actually means, but the explanation is clear: "the Hoth System".
I doubt that as they wanted prisoners otherwise the AT-AT's would have opened at full power from long range and destroyed the base. Morelikely they could have sent in small strike teams after all the rebels couldn't have the complete system covered in sensors because that would be a deffinent give away.

The AT-AT needed to knock down the shield, thus opening on the base would've done diddly and squat.

Actually since he did indicate a clean bombardment and the ability we've seen from gunners, he could well mean knock out their large defense systems.

Note that because of the shield they needed a ground assualt, knock out the shield and that ground assualt has air support, and more importantly the ability to land right next to the base.

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2005-09-18 09:33am

The Original Nex wrote:Sure they can be used in shorter ranger, but the ICS quote doesn't say that "The DBY-827 can fire bolts as far as ten light-minutes away," it says: "The DBY-827's precise, long-range tracking mode enables it to hit a target vessel at distances of over ten light-minutes."

So 10 Light Minutes IS how far it can be targetted.

I'll readily believe that a gun with a fine enough targeting system can hit a target-droid at ten light-minutes away.

Under real combat conditions, I don't think that gun could hit the broad side of a barnship at ten light-minutes.

Unless turbolaser have a magical/Force targeting/tracking system that I am unaware of, then once that TL bolt leaves the muzzle, it's beyond your control. That sucker is going to go in a straight line (actually a geodesic, but this is close enough) until it hits something. You can do a lot of maneuvering in ten minutes, and pilots/helmsmen who don't do a lot of juking about over the course of ten minutes aren't going to last long.

So the DBY-827 regularly misses at ten light-minutes, even though it has this "precise, long-range tracking mode," because under real conditions targeting information has a limited shelf-life, even if it is gathered with FTL sensors.

The effective combat range of any weapon is going to be a few seconds at the speed the bolt travels at (whether that's c or whatever) against very maneuverable craft (targeting information gets very stale very fast), tens of v-seconds against light cap ships (targeting information keeps longer, but still doesn't have a long shelf life), and maybe a few v-minutes for the largest cap ships (leviathan moving around = targeting information is still good for a few minutes).

So where does this "precise, long-range tracking mode enables it to hit a target vessel distances of over ten light-minutes" junk come from? What, don't you think the SW galaxy has hype?

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2005-09-18 09:55am

Well, an HTL bolt tagged a YV worldship in orbit around Coruscant from beyond the solar system. So the sensors are capable of tracking from 10 light-minutes away, just not in any real combat situation.

Wyrm · Post by **Wyrm** » 2005-09-18 12:51pm

Darth Yoshi wrote:Well, an HTL bolt tagged a YV worldship in orbit around Coruscant from beyond the solar system. So the sensors are capable of tracking from 10 light-minutes away, just not in any real combat situation.

I assume world ship == really big honkin' ship with the maneuverability of a pregnant whale, right? Well, then the advert shoulda clarified "target vessel" as a "big, huge vessel with a bullseye target painted on its side." THAT would be truth in advertising.

That the "ten light-minute" figure is yet another useless benchmark used in hype still stands.

Ace Pace · Post by **Ace Pace** » 2005-09-18 01:03pm

You would be correct, a worldship is huged, DS1 levels atleast.

Noble Ire · Post by **Noble Ire** » 2005-09-18 01:07pm

Ace Pace wrote:You would be correct, a worldship is huged, DS1 levels atleast.

120 km in diameter (roughly, Vong ship classes don't have definante dimensions) although certainly not as massive as a DS1 (a disk rather than a sphere.)

And worldships do have pretty bad manuverability, due to their size. One was unable to get out of the way of a ramming SSD.

Grandmaster Jogurt · Post by **Grandmaster Jogurt** » 2005-09-18 04:40pm

Wyrm wrote:
The Original Nex wrote:Sure they can be used in shorter ranger, but the ICS quote doesn't say that "The DBY-827 can fire bolts as far as ten light-minutes away," it says: "The DBY-827's precise, long-range tracking mode enables it to hit a target vessel at distances of over ten light-minutes."

So 10 Light Minutes IS how far it can be targetted.
I'll readily believe that a gun with a fine enough targeting system can hit a target-droid at ten light-minutes away.

Under real combat conditions, I don't think that gun could hit the broad side of a barnship at ten light-minutes.

Unless turbolaser have a magical/Force targeting/tracking system that I am unaware of, then once that TL bolt leaves the muzzle, it's beyond your control. That sucker is going to go in a straight line (actually a geodesic, but this is close enough) until it hits something. You can do a lot of maneuvering in ten minutes, and pilots/helmsmen who don't do a lot of juking about over the course of ten minutes aren't going to last long.

[snip]

Actually, there is evidence that the turbolaser's bolt is still under control after it is fired. At Endor, an X-wing is chasing a TIE in a loop, and the shots fired seem to fly straight relative to the looping X-wing, a feat which would require the shot to be accelerated. In the Hoth asteroid belt, there is a scene where one of the brim guns of an ISD fires and a few frames later, the bolt changes course to hit an asteroid.

I don't have the images on me, but since I see them posted every time a "what are turbolasers" debate pops up, someone should be able to provide them.