Upper limit photon torpedoes...
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Upper limit photon torpedoes...
The following is Mike Wong's calculation for the maximum theoritcal yield for photon torpedoes:
1.5 kilograms(anti-matter) x 1.5 kilograms(matter) = 64.3 megaton yield
His conclusion states that we can reasonably expect a photon torpedo to deliver between 10 to 32 megatons of energy at any given target. However, while the calculation itself is sound, the basis of this calculation not. His reference source, the "Deep Space Nine Technical Manual", is a non-canon source in which his figures could have been plucked randomly out of thin air by the authors.
The following is a canon statement made by Seven of Nine from Star Trek Voyager "Scorpion Part 2":
"Voyager's torpedo inventory; 32 photon torpedo complement, maximum yield 200 isotons."
Since this episode, many Trekkies have pounced on this information in attempts to extrapolate it's exact meaning in order to get a clear view of the maximum yields of Federation torpedoes. A couple of examples:
"Take the statement literately." - Unfortunately, this isn't the best way to go. Isoton basically means "singular tons", and using our *current* system for measuring explosives, this would mean 200 tons of TNT...a rather pitiful warhead explosion for a technologically advanced human race. In comparison to the real world's largest detonated nuclear explosive (57 megatons, detonated by the Russians during the Cold War), Voyager's most powerful warhead would be 285,000 times less powerful.
"The 1.5 kilogram reference source was referred to as 25 isotons, therefore the 200 isotons is 8 times more powerful than that, approximately 514 megatons." - This is certainly more creative than the first example, and has some merit if one uses the Techical Manual as a reference source. Strangely enough, some Star Wars fans have claimed that one cannot do this because the TM declares 25 isotons as the maximum photon torpedo yield. Essentially, they attempt to imply one must except every word in the TM as factual, or ignore it (jeez, maybe some Warsies should do this with their "official" literature). Anyhow, if one were willing to selectively use information from the TM(similar to how some Warsies will selectively use information from novels, and declare the rest inaccurate), then this calculation works.
"200 isotons is a unknown measurement for explosive power, and therefore it's anyone's guess." - No disputes here. I personally agree with it.
The following is my theory(and I'm the first to admit it is very sketchy at this point) as to what 200 isotons means. Clearly, we cannot use it literately as TNT explosive power(canon examples of photon torpedoes have given them lower limits ranging in kilotons), and it doesn't seem likely the Federation would use 200 tons of uranium or plutonium as explosive power measurements. One theory is that 200 isotons of explosive force is the equivalent of 200 metric tons of anti-matter and matter anihilating eachother(and yes, I'm aware this is a theory based upon a single statement). Example:
1 kilogram anti-matter x 1 kilogram matter = 42.86 megatons (calc based from information assimilated at www.stardestroyer.net )
1000 kilograms(1 metric ton) anti-maater x 1000 kilograms(1 metric ton) matter = 42,860 megatons(1 x isoton)
From this calculation, it is determined that 1 isoton of explosive force is the equivalent of 42,860 megatons. Taking a 200 isoton yield we get:
200,000 kilograms(200 metric tons) anti-matter x 200,000 kilograms(200 metric tons) matter = 8,572,000 megatons = 8,572 gigatons = 8.572 teratons
So, utilizing the theory that 1 isoton is literately 1 ton of anti-matter and 1 ton or normal matter reacting, a 200 isoton torpedo would have a maximum theoritical yield of 8.572 teratons. If the isoton refers to total mass of both quantities in question, we would merely divide any such calculation by 2. Do note that factors such a reaction ineffiency and actual blast radius hitting the target haven't been applied here, so effective yield could be considerably lower(my guess is that 50% would be a very generous estimate).
Let me strongly stress (especially to you mindless flamers) that this is only a theory that throws around some impressive numbers. Personally, I'm a little cautious myself as to how valid this assumption is, but it cannot be ruled out as impossible since we are dealing with a fiction reality in the first place. I'd like to address common objections and problems with this theory:
"It's highly unlikely 200 tons of matter and anti-matter can be placed safely or crammed inside such small torpedo cases that have been seen." - From our current technology level and understanding, such criticism has merit. However, we are dealing with a futuristic military power which may have highly sophisticated ways of accomplishing such feats. For instance, if one were to go back to 1900 and claim a 9 foot long explosive device could release over 5 megatons of TNT explosive force, physicists of the time would claim you mad and explain to their fellows that 5 millions tons of TNT cannot possibly be crammed into such a small container(and they'd be right!). The point being that while the Federation may have the technological means to "cram" 200 tons of matter and anti-matter into small containers(perhaps some type of mass "lightening technology), it's also quite possible that anti-matter and matter are not the explosive components of photon torpedo warheads. Similar to how nuclear warheads explode with the force of 5 millions tones of TNT, despite not actually utilizing TNT. From all accounts known to myself, anti-matter as torpedo explosive material has only been established in non-canon Technical Manuals.
"Trek ships hit with torpedoes have never been damaged too such a degree to suggest such yields." - One of the easier claims to deal with, it has several problems. First off, it ignores other Federation technology at work, such as "structual integrity fields". These "SIF"'s are apparently some type of energy barriers(commonly called forcefields) that reinforce the hull of starships(not to mention the durability of Federation hulls is still in dispute). Additionally, the power fed to these SIF's cannot be determined, since power generation of such starships is also in dispute. Secondly, this objection also assumes that such starships would *always* be armed with such weaponry, and *always* use them.
"Trek ships should always use such powerful weaponry all the time to swiftly defeat enemies." - If any military power were to apply this line of thinking in the deployment of military units, soldiers would *always* be equipped with nuclear firing canons, and tanks along with fighter aircraft would routinely engage eachother with nuclear warheads instead of conventional weaponry such as bullets, shells and missiles. The main problem with equipping units with mass destruction payloads for routine use is the high risk of self anihilation and/or damage. As we know, Trek battles typically engage at very close range, usually within a few kilometers(undoubtably due to high sublight speeds that shrink weapons range within seconds). Deployment of high yield torpedoes, especially those calculated above, could easily destroy the ship launching them as well(Commander Riker once stated that photon torpedos just detonating near the Enterprise D could cripple her. Of course, this was only *after* previous attacks(phasers) failed). Additionally, if a enemy vessel can be disabled with much smaller yield weaponry, why waste the resources for mega weaponry when much smaller(cheaper) weapons will do the job? This is one of the reasons why jet fighters don't fire nuclear warheads at eachother; a typical missile will do just fine, and not destroy the fighter firing it. However, this does not mean that if faced with an enormous or powerful target/enemy, a jet fighter cannot deploy nuclear forces against it. The same goes for soldiers, tanks, etc. Also note, most military units don't typically carry nuclear armaments, and must be equipped beforehand. So in situations where such yields may be beneficial, they may not be available onhand immediately.
"In Star Trek 6, the Enterprise A got a direct hit on it's hull by a photon torpedo and suffered damage resembling that of a mere explosion of TNT." - This arguement also ignores the SIF componenet of Federation hulls. Additionally, the torpedos in question were launched by a prototype Klingon vessel that fired these weapons while cloaked, which could easily contribute explainations for firepower limitations. It's proximity to the Enterprise was obviously very close, as seen when it was destroyed, and the Kilngon commander was in no rush to destroy his targets as he was teasing and taunting his victims. An analogy would be the ability to cloak a jet fighter from enemy radar(like the F22 Raptor), and then equip it with nuclear warheads to destroy other aircraft. Clearly not very practical, nor is it done.
"Commander Riker said the entire torpedo payload of the Enterprise wasn't sufficient to destroy a mostly hollow 5 mile long asteroid in "Pegasus"." - There are multiple problems with this claim, some based on the fact it's been some time since I've seen this episode myself. I'll list some questions I'd like answered before drawing a reasonable conclusion from this *single* incident: How big really was this asteroid? How was the 5 mile size reached, and is it accurate? Why does one cavern inside this asteroid immediately translate as the entire asteroid being hollow? What was the Enterprise's torpedo payload at the time? Were they prepared for battle and equipped with high yield weaponry? How long does it take to increase the yield on variable yield photon torpedoes?(these Federation torpedoes can be scaled back to a "display" blast in planetary atmospheres) Does the Enterprise have sufficient materials on hand to increase it's torpedo yields by high factors? What was the Enterprise's proximity to the asteroid? Just how long did they have to destroy the asteroid before the Romulan warbird showed up? Was Commander Riker sufficently aware of the size and material composition of the asteroid in question? Could it be he was simply wrong, guilty of a minor lapse in reasoning, perhaps due to pressing time and nervousness of an enemy warship closing?(apparently Federation officers are infallible when their comments weaken their military capabilities, but not vice versa) Anyhow, the list goes on, and I suspect alot of those who rant this particular arguement have over-simpified the scenario.
Once again, I stress that this in only a theory of mine, and I'm currently considering it. This does not mean that I think the Federation's fleets could be equipped with entire payloads of such weaponry on short notice. (And yes, the reason it is posted here is for all to poke holes into it. That's what makes debating fun! )
If anything, I hope this post brought up some interesting points. However, even if this type of potential yield for photon torpedoes were to be accepted(HA!), it should be noted I still strongly hold that the Empire could swiftly defeat the Federation with superior numbers, speed, and sufficent firepower against unprotected planetary targets. Though, the might want to get their hands on those torpedoes once sufficient resources are firmly in their military grasp.
1.5 kilograms(anti-matter) x 1.5 kilograms(matter) = 64.3 megaton yield
His conclusion states that we can reasonably expect a photon torpedo to deliver between 10 to 32 megatons of energy at any given target. However, while the calculation itself is sound, the basis of this calculation not. His reference source, the "Deep Space Nine Technical Manual", is a non-canon source in which his figures could have been plucked randomly out of thin air by the authors.
The following is a canon statement made by Seven of Nine from Star Trek Voyager "Scorpion Part 2":
"Voyager's torpedo inventory; 32 photon torpedo complement, maximum yield 200 isotons."
Since this episode, many Trekkies have pounced on this information in attempts to extrapolate it's exact meaning in order to get a clear view of the maximum yields of Federation torpedoes. A couple of examples:
"Take the statement literately." - Unfortunately, this isn't the best way to go. Isoton basically means "singular tons", and using our *current* system for measuring explosives, this would mean 200 tons of TNT...a rather pitiful warhead explosion for a technologically advanced human race. In comparison to the real world's largest detonated nuclear explosive (57 megatons, detonated by the Russians during the Cold War), Voyager's most powerful warhead would be 285,000 times less powerful.
"The 1.5 kilogram reference source was referred to as 25 isotons, therefore the 200 isotons is 8 times more powerful than that, approximately 514 megatons." - This is certainly more creative than the first example, and has some merit if one uses the Techical Manual as a reference source. Strangely enough, some Star Wars fans have claimed that one cannot do this because the TM declares 25 isotons as the maximum photon torpedo yield. Essentially, they attempt to imply one must except every word in the TM as factual, or ignore it (jeez, maybe some Warsies should do this with their "official" literature). Anyhow, if one were willing to selectively use information from the TM(similar to how some Warsies will selectively use information from novels, and declare the rest inaccurate), then this calculation works.
"200 isotons is a unknown measurement for explosive power, and therefore it's anyone's guess." - No disputes here. I personally agree with it.
The following is my theory(and I'm the first to admit it is very sketchy at this point) as to what 200 isotons means. Clearly, we cannot use it literately as TNT explosive power(canon examples of photon torpedoes have given them lower limits ranging in kilotons), and it doesn't seem likely the Federation would use 200 tons of uranium or plutonium as explosive power measurements. One theory is that 200 isotons of explosive force is the equivalent of 200 metric tons of anti-matter and matter anihilating eachother(and yes, I'm aware this is a theory based upon a single statement). Example:
1 kilogram anti-matter x 1 kilogram matter = 42.86 megatons (calc based from information assimilated at www.stardestroyer.net )
1000 kilograms(1 metric ton) anti-maater x 1000 kilograms(1 metric ton) matter = 42,860 megatons(1 x isoton)
From this calculation, it is determined that 1 isoton of explosive force is the equivalent of 42,860 megatons. Taking a 200 isoton yield we get:
200,000 kilograms(200 metric tons) anti-matter x 200,000 kilograms(200 metric tons) matter = 8,572,000 megatons = 8,572 gigatons = 8.572 teratons
So, utilizing the theory that 1 isoton is literately 1 ton of anti-matter and 1 ton or normal matter reacting, a 200 isoton torpedo would have a maximum theoritical yield of 8.572 teratons. If the isoton refers to total mass of both quantities in question, we would merely divide any such calculation by 2. Do note that factors such a reaction ineffiency and actual blast radius hitting the target haven't been applied here, so effective yield could be considerably lower(my guess is that 50% would be a very generous estimate).
Let me strongly stress (especially to you mindless flamers) that this is only a theory that throws around some impressive numbers. Personally, I'm a little cautious myself as to how valid this assumption is, but it cannot be ruled out as impossible since we are dealing with a fiction reality in the first place. I'd like to address common objections and problems with this theory:
"It's highly unlikely 200 tons of matter and anti-matter can be placed safely or crammed inside such small torpedo cases that have been seen." - From our current technology level and understanding, such criticism has merit. However, we are dealing with a futuristic military power which may have highly sophisticated ways of accomplishing such feats. For instance, if one were to go back to 1900 and claim a 9 foot long explosive device could release over 5 megatons of TNT explosive force, physicists of the time would claim you mad and explain to their fellows that 5 millions tons of TNT cannot possibly be crammed into such a small container(and they'd be right!). The point being that while the Federation may have the technological means to "cram" 200 tons of matter and anti-matter into small containers(perhaps some type of mass "lightening technology), it's also quite possible that anti-matter and matter are not the explosive components of photon torpedo warheads. Similar to how nuclear warheads explode with the force of 5 millions tones of TNT, despite not actually utilizing TNT. From all accounts known to myself, anti-matter as torpedo explosive material has only been established in non-canon Technical Manuals.
"Trek ships hit with torpedoes have never been damaged too such a degree to suggest such yields." - One of the easier claims to deal with, it has several problems. First off, it ignores other Federation technology at work, such as "structual integrity fields". These "SIF"'s are apparently some type of energy barriers(commonly called forcefields) that reinforce the hull of starships(not to mention the durability of Federation hulls is still in dispute). Additionally, the power fed to these SIF's cannot be determined, since power generation of such starships is also in dispute. Secondly, this objection also assumes that such starships would *always* be armed with such weaponry, and *always* use them.
"Trek ships should always use such powerful weaponry all the time to swiftly defeat enemies." - If any military power were to apply this line of thinking in the deployment of military units, soldiers would *always* be equipped with nuclear firing canons, and tanks along with fighter aircraft would routinely engage eachother with nuclear warheads instead of conventional weaponry such as bullets, shells and missiles. The main problem with equipping units with mass destruction payloads for routine use is the high risk of self anihilation and/or damage. As we know, Trek battles typically engage at very close range, usually within a few kilometers(undoubtably due to high sublight speeds that shrink weapons range within seconds). Deployment of high yield torpedoes, especially those calculated above, could easily destroy the ship launching them as well(Commander Riker once stated that photon torpedos just detonating near the Enterprise D could cripple her. Of course, this was only *after* previous attacks(phasers) failed). Additionally, if a enemy vessel can be disabled with much smaller yield weaponry, why waste the resources for mega weaponry when much smaller(cheaper) weapons will do the job? This is one of the reasons why jet fighters don't fire nuclear warheads at eachother; a typical missile will do just fine, and not destroy the fighter firing it. However, this does not mean that if faced with an enormous or powerful target/enemy, a jet fighter cannot deploy nuclear forces against it. The same goes for soldiers, tanks, etc. Also note, most military units don't typically carry nuclear armaments, and must be equipped beforehand. So in situations where such yields may be beneficial, they may not be available onhand immediately.
"In Star Trek 6, the Enterprise A got a direct hit on it's hull by a photon torpedo and suffered damage resembling that of a mere explosion of TNT." - This arguement also ignores the SIF componenet of Federation hulls. Additionally, the torpedos in question were launched by a prototype Klingon vessel that fired these weapons while cloaked, which could easily contribute explainations for firepower limitations. It's proximity to the Enterprise was obviously very close, as seen when it was destroyed, and the Kilngon commander was in no rush to destroy his targets as he was teasing and taunting his victims. An analogy would be the ability to cloak a jet fighter from enemy radar(like the F22 Raptor), and then equip it with nuclear warheads to destroy other aircraft. Clearly not very practical, nor is it done.
"Commander Riker said the entire torpedo payload of the Enterprise wasn't sufficient to destroy a mostly hollow 5 mile long asteroid in "Pegasus"." - There are multiple problems with this claim, some based on the fact it's been some time since I've seen this episode myself. I'll list some questions I'd like answered before drawing a reasonable conclusion from this *single* incident: How big really was this asteroid? How was the 5 mile size reached, and is it accurate? Why does one cavern inside this asteroid immediately translate as the entire asteroid being hollow? What was the Enterprise's torpedo payload at the time? Were they prepared for battle and equipped with high yield weaponry? How long does it take to increase the yield on variable yield photon torpedoes?(these Federation torpedoes can be scaled back to a "display" blast in planetary atmospheres) Does the Enterprise have sufficient materials on hand to increase it's torpedo yields by high factors? What was the Enterprise's proximity to the asteroid? Just how long did they have to destroy the asteroid before the Romulan warbird showed up? Was Commander Riker sufficently aware of the size and material composition of the asteroid in question? Could it be he was simply wrong, guilty of a minor lapse in reasoning, perhaps due to pressing time and nervousness of an enemy warship closing?(apparently Federation officers are infallible when their comments weaken their military capabilities, but not vice versa) Anyhow, the list goes on, and I suspect alot of those who rant this particular arguement have over-simpified the scenario.
Once again, I stress that this in only a theory of mine, and I'm currently considering it. This does not mean that I think the Federation's fleets could be equipped with entire payloads of such weaponry on short notice. (And yes, the reason it is posted here is for all to poke holes into it. That's what makes debating fun! )
If anything, I hope this post brought up some interesting points. However, even if this type of potential yield for photon torpedoes were to be accepted(HA!), it should be noted I still strongly hold that the Empire could swiftly defeat the Federation with superior numbers, speed, and sufficent firepower against unprotected planetary targets. Though, the might want to get their hands on those torpedoes once sufficient resources are firmly in their military grasp.
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ermm wow.
Your theory relies upon painting isoton as tons of antimatter while this is a possible yield it could also be a great many other things, theres no real way to know either way (prehaps its tons of uber antimatter or Garth of Izar's 20 oz world vaping chemical or tons of some other material ).
I think I will leave now, remember people there isn't always a need to flame till they are crispy.
Your theory relies upon painting isoton as tons of antimatter while this is a possible yield it could also be a great many other things, theres no real way to know either way (prehaps its tons of uber antimatter or Garth of Izar's 20 oz world vaping chemical or tons of some other material ).
I think I will leave now, remember people there isn't always a need to flame till they are crispy.
It doesn't matter if the asteroid were hollow, or if it were 50 miles in diameter, not 5. About 2600TT would be needed to vaporize the 50-mile wide (iron) asteroid. That would take roughly the entire E-D torpedo inventory to destroy, at 5TT per torp. This assumes that the asteroid is 10x the diameter we've seen, assumes it is iron (instead of something less heat-resistant), assumes it is totally solid, and assumes that the asteroid was to be completely vaporized.
Clearly torpedos are nowhere near 5TT.
Of course, you could have seen that just as easily if you had a brain.
Clearly torpedos are nowhere near 5TT.
Of course, you could have seen that just as easily if you had a brain.
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These must be the most insane numbers i have ever seen anyone put to torps.Anyways its interesting that they would have to somehow have the ability to cram 200 metric tonns of anti-matter and matter to a 2 meter torpedo casing, and then it should be light enough to be lifted by a human.
Allso this would indicate that a single torpedo has a higher yield than the warp core of an E-D can produce.
Allso this would indicate that a single torpedo has a higher yield than the warp core of an E-D can produce.
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The problem here is that we know that ST ships cannot easily lower the yields of their weapons. In "Q Who?" [TNG], the Enterprise is stated by Data to be at risk if it fires its own torpedoes at a Borg cube, which appears to be several kilometers away. In "Nth Degree" [TNG], the Enterprise is stated to be at similar risk, albeit with a much smaller range, until Barclay uses technobabble to increase the shielding of ST ships. This demonstrates that it is not easy for a ST ship to lower its torpedo yield, at least below a certain point, or they should have used such methods in both episodes.Trek ships should always use such powerful weaponry all the time to swiftly defeat enemies." - If any military power were to apply this line of thinking in the deployment of military units, soldiers would *always* be equipped with nuclear firing canons, and tanks along with fighter aircraft would routinely engage eachother with nuclear warheads instead of conventional weaponry such as bullets, shells and missiles. The main problem with equipping units with mass destruction payloads for routine use is the high risk of self anihilation and/or damage. As we know, Trek battles typically engage at very close range, usually within a few kilometers(undoubtably due to high sublight speeds that shrink weapons range within seconds). Deployment of high yield torpedoes, especially those calculated above, could easily destroy the ship launching them as well(Commander Riker once stated that photon torpedos just detonating near the Enterprise D could cripple her. Of course, this was only *after* previous attacks(phasers) failed). Additionally, if a enemy vessel can be disabled with much smaller yield weaponry, why waste the resources for mega weaponry when much smaller(cheaper) weapons will do the job? This is one of the reasons why jet fighters don't fire nuclear warheads at eachother; a typical missile will do just fine, and not destroy the fighter firing it. However, this does not mean that if faced with an enormous or powerful target/enemy, a jet fighter cannot deploy nuclear forces against it. The same goes for soldiers, tanks, etc. Also note, most military units don't typically carry nuclear armaments, and must be equipped beforehand. So in situations where such yields may be beneficial, they may not be available onhand immediately.
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Oh come on. This is just flaming for flaming's sake. The guy hasn't come across too badly.Howedar wrote:Of course, you could have seen that just as easily if you had a brain.
Well, I think anyway. I don't involve in these types of threads much.
200 GT TLs.
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6 MT Point defence guns.
1 KT Starfighter cannon (Near-Hiroshima-level damage!)
STAR WARS STRIKES BACK!!!
1) The density they stor this stuff at is described as a slush. Now admittedly I didn't do any checking yet, but I am doubtful you can cram 400 tons of anything in a slush form into a casing the size of the photon torpedo
2) Torpedoes get their load from the ship itself. This means aGCS could only carry 50 type 6 torps. So either the smaller intrepic carries an assload more AM then the GCS, or your figures are off.
2) Torpedoes get their load from the ship itself. This means aGCS could only carry 50 type 6 torps. So either the smaller intrepic carries an assload more AM then the GCS, or your figures are off.
بيرني كان سيفوز
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in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
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ipsa scientia potestas est
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Nuclear Navy Warwolf
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in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
Very well. For the moment, let's call it open season on photon torpedo yield.Robert Walper wrote: The following is Mike Wong's calculation for the maximum theoritcal yield for photon torpedoes:
1.5 kilograms(anti-matter) x 1.5 kilograms(matter) = 64.3 megaton yield
His conclusion states that we can reasonably expect a photon torpedo to deliver between 10 to 32 megatons of energy at any given target. However, while the calculation itself is sound, the basis of this calculation not. His reference source, the "Deep Space Nine Technical Manual", is a non-canon source in which his figures could have been plucked randomly out of thin air by the authors.
So, we seem to be once again trying to define the elusive "isoton".Robert Walper wrote: The following is a canon statement made by Seven of Nine from Star Trek Voyager "Scorpion Part 2":
"Voyager's torpedo inventory; 32 photon torpedo complement, maximum yield 200 isotons."
Since this episode, many Trekkies have pounced on this information in attempts to extrapolate it's exact meaning in order to get a clear view of the maximum yields of Federation torpedoes.
Alas, that's not terribly inconsistent with some things we've actually seen torpedoes accomplish (the incident from ST6 you mentioned, for instance). A blast equivalent to a few dozen tons of TNT is also compatible with statements from Riker and Laforge about the Enterprise-D's power output only coming to about one terawatt ("The Dauphin" and "The Masterpiece Society", respectively), since the combined output of the ships phasers and photon torpedoes comes to less than the ship could direct through the main deflector dish in a controlled manner ("Best of Both Worlds" and "Night Terrors"), and they couldn't possibly put more through the deflector than the ship's power systems can generate.Robert Walper wrote: A couple of examples:
"Take the statement literately." - Unfortunately, this isn't the best way to go. Isoton basically means "singular tons", and using our *current* system for measuring explosives, this would mean 200 tons of TNT...a rather pitiful warhead explosion for a technologically advanced human race. In comparison to the real world's largest detonated nuclear explosive (57 megatons, detonated by the Russians during the Cold War), Voyager's most powerful warhead would be 285,000 times less powerful.
Although we generally dismiss any weapon with less than thermonuclear yields in debates, a blast equivalent to 200 tons of TNT is nothing to sneeze at. There's no reason to assume it wouldn't do substantial damage to any starship, especially if the projectile penetrated the hull and the payload detonated inside. One such projectile would be equivalent to dozens of modern cruise missiles with conventional warheads or many salvoes from a WW2 battleship. I really don't see any reason to dismiss that possibility that 200 isotons is equal to 200 tons of TNT (metric tons if you want a little extra potency).
Quite frankly, I don't see any reason to dismiss this argument either. If you're going to accept its implications for the yield of 25 isoton torpedoes, you might as well extrapolate those same terms to include 200 isoton torpedoes. The problem is that the ST:TMs are extremely suspect sources these days.Robert Walper wrote: "The 1.5 kilogram reference source was referred to as 25 isotons, therefore the 200 isotons is 8 times more powerful than that, approximately 514 megatons." - This is certainly more creative than the first example, and has some merit if one uses the Techical Manual as a reference source. Strangely enough, some Star Wars fans have claimed that one cannot do this because the TM declares 25 isotons as the maximum photon torpedo yield. Essentially, they attempt to imply one must except every word in the TM as factual, or ignore it (jeez, maybe some Warsies should do this with their "official" literature). Anyhow, if one were willing to selectively use information from the TM(similar to how some Warsies will selectively use information from novels, and declare the rest inaccurate), then this calculation works.
That really just means that you don't have any clear definition of the unit, so you have to try to evaluate yield based on depicted usage. If you can determine the yield of the weapon, you can then attempt to calculate the value of the unit.Robert Walper wrote: "200 isotons is a unknown measurement for explosive power, and therefore it's anyone's guess." - No disputes here. I personally agree with it.
Let's start by examining those events, then. Show us the incidents in which a photon torpedo has a minimum yield in the kiloton range. It shouldn't be too hard, of course; 24th century technology should be able to produce such a blast easily.Robert Walper wrote: The following is my theory(and I'm the first to admit it is very sketchy at this point) as to what 200 isotons means. Clearly, we cannot use it literately as TNT explosive power (canon examples of photon torpedoes have given them lower limits ranging in kilotons),...
It's always possible that a payload equivalent to 25 to 200 metric tons of TNT is the "conventional" warhead, while a "special" warhead with nuclear yield can be attached if circumstances require it.
The problem here is that anti-matter seems to be the richest energy source available to the Federation, and I don't see how they could possibly get 200 tons of matter/anti-matter payload into a 2-meter torpedo casing, especially with containment system, a propulsion unit and a guidance system, too. Equivalence to 200 tons of TNT is far more plausible, even when supposing extremely advanced technology.Robert Walper wrote: ... and it doesn't seem likely the Federation would use 200 tons of uranium or plutonium as explosive power measurements. One theory is that 200 isotons of explosive force is the equivalent of 200 metric tons of anti-matter and matter anihilating eachother(and yes, I'm aware this is a theory based upon a single statement). Example:
1 kilogram anti-matter x 1 kilogram matter = 42.86 megatons (calc based from information assimilated at www.stardestroyer.net )
1000 kilograms(1 metric ton) anti-maater x 1000 kilograms(1 metric ton) matter = 42,860 megatons(1 x isoton)
From this calculation, it is determined that 1 isoton of explosive force is the equivalent of 42,860 megatons. Taking a 200 isoton yield we get:
200,000 kilograms(200 metric tons) anti-matter x 200,000 kilograms(200 metric tons) matter = 8,572,000 megatons = 8,572 gigatons = 8.572 teratons
The possibility of forcing 200 tons of material into a few cubic meters of space stretches plausibility beyond all possible credibility, IMO. Beyond that, we have no indication that the Federation possesses a denser form of energy containment; even in TOS, whenever they needed an extraordinarily large ka-boom, they turned to anti-matter. Consequently, I will consider this particular objection to be extremely legitimate until you can show some actual evidence that the Federation has the technology to solve the problem. Simply saying "we don't know what kind of containment technology or high explosive materials they might have" isn't going to cut it. I believe this particular argument falls under the category of Appeal to Ignorance.Robert Walper wrote: *snip*
Let me strongly stress (especially to you mindless flamers) that this is only a theory that throws around some impressive numbers. Personally, I'm a little cautious myself as to how valid this assumption is, but it cannot be ruled out as impossible since we are dealing with a fiction reality in the first place. I'd like to address common objections and problems with this theory:
"It's highly unlikely 200 tons of matter and anti-matter can be placed safely or crammed inside such small torpedo cases that have been seen." - From our current technology level and understanding, such criticism has merit. However, we are dealing with a futuristic military power which may have highly sophisticated ways of accomplishing such feats. For instance, if one were to go back to 1900 and claim a 9 foot long explosive device could release over 5 megatons of TNT explosive force, physicists of the time would claim you mad and explain to their fellows that 5 millions tons of TNT cannot possibly be crammed into such a small container(and they'd be right!). The point being that while the Federation may have the technological means to "cram" 200 tons of matter and anti-matter into small containers(perhaps some type of mass "lightening technology), it's also quite possible that anti-matter and matter are not the explosive components of photon torpedo warheads. Similar to how nuclear warheads explode with the force of 5 millions tones of TNT, despite not actually utilizing TNT. From all accounts known to myself, anti-matter as torpedo explosive material has only been established in non-canon Technical Manuals.
Structural integrity fields obviously don't have the same capabilities as defensive shields, or defensive shields wouldn't be necessary. The apparent purpose of SIFs is to help the ship's structure handle static loads; I don't see much reason to think they'd be much good at anything else, particularly since Federation starship have separate systems to deal with other hazards. You are, of course, welcome to produce quantitative evidence of the capabilities of SIFs to resist collisions from projectiles like photon torpedoes.Robert Walper wrote: "Trek ships hit with torpedoes have never been damaged too such a degree to suggest such yields." - One of the easier claims to deal with, it has several problems. First off, it ignores other Federation technology at work, such as "structual integrity fields". These "SIF"'s are apparently some type of energy barriers(commonly called forcefields) that reinforce the hull of starships(not to mention the durability of Federation hulls is still in dispute). Additionally, the power fed to these SIF's cannot be determined, since power generation of such starships is also in dispute. Secondly, this objection also assumes that such starships would *always* be armed with such weaponry, and *always* use them.
I certainly don't dismiss the possibility that Federation weapons can have a wide range of yields, but what you're suggesting is that the captain of a Federation starship can, at any time, elect to employ a weapon with a yield of more than 8 teratons. Please explain to me why they wouldn't use such a weapon against certain implacable enemies (the Borg, for instance). If they would, then please explain why we haven't seen any evidence of 8+ teraton explosions in battle against such foes.Robert Walper wrote: "Trek ships should always use such powerful weaponry all the time to swiftly defeat enemies." - If any military power were to apply this line of thinking in the deployment of military units, soldiers would *always* be equipped with nuclear firing canons, and tanks along with fighter aircraft would routinely engage eachother with nuclear warheads instead of conventional weaponry such as bullets, shells and missiles.
*snip*
No amount of SIF would have held that ship together if a teraton-range weapon had exploded inside it.Robert Walper wrote: "In Star Trek 6, the Enterprise A got a direct hit on it's hull by a photon torpedo and suffered damage resembling that of a mere explosion of TNT." - This arguement also ignores the SIF componenet of Federation hulls.
I believe that researchers have been able to compare the size of the asteroid to the size of the Enterprise-D as the E-D was entering the internal cave system.Robert Walper wrote: "Commander Riker said the entire torpedo payload of the Enterprise wasn't sufficient to destroy a mostly hollow 5 mile long asteroid in "Pegasus"." - There are multiple problems with this claim, some based on the fact it's been some time since I've seen this episode myself. I'll list some questions I'd like answered before drawing a reasonable conclusion from this *single* incident:
How big really was this asteroid? How was the 5 mile size reached, and is it accurate?
I believe that people consider it largely hollow because the Enterprise was able to maneuver inside without great difficulty and spent a fair amount of time searching for the wreck of the Pegasus.Robert Walper wrote: Why does one cavern inside this asteroid immediately translate as the entire asteroid being hollow?
There is no reason to think they were substantially below their nominal capacity of 275 torpedoes; nor is there any reason to think those torpedoes weren't capable of maximum yield.Robert Walper wrote: What was the Enterprise's torpedo payload at the time? Were they prepared for battle and equipped with high yield weaponry?
How long does it take to "scale them back"? As I recall, Tasha Yar managed to do that from her console in just a few seconds. Do you have some reason to think it would be more complicated to increase the yield to maximum?Robert Walper wrote: How long does it take to increase the yield on variable yield photon torpedoes? (these Federation torpedoes can be scaled back to a "display" blast in planetary atmospheres)
Are you now arguing that not all Federation torpedoes are capable of multi-teraton yields? That Voyager happens to carry 32 of these excessive weapons while the "Federation flagship" doesn't carry any? Or are you suggesting that the yield of Federation torpedoes jumped by orders of magnitude between the last season of TNG and "Scorpion".Robert Walper wrote: Does the Enterprise have sufficient materials on hand to increase it's torpedo yields by high factors?
Not terribly far away, as I recall.Robert Walper wrote: What was the Enterprise's proximity to the asteroid?
A few minutes, perhaps.Robert Walper wrote: Just how long did they have to destroy the asteroid before the Romulan warbird showed up?
I believe that already had a general idea of its composition, although he might not have known how much of it was hollow.Robert Walper wrote: Was Commander Riker sufficently aware of the size and material composition of the asteroid in question?
I am never slow to admit the fallibility of Federation personnel. Character-error is one of the few ways to resolve a multitude of inconsistencies.Robert Walper wrote: Could it be he was simply wrong, guilty of a minor lapse in reasoning, perhaps due to pressing time and nervousness of an enemy warship closing? (apparently Federation officers are infallible when their comments weaken their military capabilities, but not vice versa)
Consider it poked.Robert Walper wrote: Once again, I stress that this in only a theory of mine, and I'm currently considering it. This does not mean that I think the Federation's fleets could be equipped with entire payloads of such weaponry on short notice. (And yes, the reason it is posted here is for all to poke holes into it. That's what makes debating fun! )
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Re: Upper limit photon torpedoes...
<--snip-->Robert Walper wrote:The following is a canon statement made by Seven of Nine from Star Trek Voyager "Scorpion Part 2":
"Voyager's torpedo inventory; 32 photon torpedo complement, maximum yield 200 isotons."
Well, if that's the exact quote, has anyone thought that Seven meant the entire compliment of 32 torpedoes = 200 isotons? That seems to fit quite well with what she said.
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In "Night Terrors," the entirety of the Enterprise's photon torpedo load was insufficient to match the explosive power of a chemical reaction.
In Star Trek VI, the explosion of a photon torpedo on the Bird of Brey's hull did not induce a torque consistent with multi-teraton energy releases. Also, the detonation of a torpedo inside the Enterprise's hull had effects equivalent to those of a modern hand grenade, and failed to vaporize any surrounding hull material. In fact, all it did was scortch the outer hull.
In Star Trek V, a photon torpedo fired at God demonstrated explosive power no more impressive than that of a few kilograms of C4 explosives.
In Star Trek VI, we saw a photon torpedo moving down the line with Spock and McCoy playing with its innards. If it carried matter and antimatter in the tonnage range, the friction between the torpedo and its mount would have been utterly insufficient to overcome the torpedo's inertia due to the force required to move a massive object like that around. We also saw the torpedo being dropped from its mount into the firing tube. If it weighed many tons, it would have crushed the grating support underneath it. Same thing in Star Trek II when we saw a torpedo moving down a loading line.
In Star Trek VI, the explosion of a photon torpedo on the Bird of Brey's hull did not induce a torque consistent with multi-teraton energy releases. Also, the detonation of a torpedo inside the Enterprise's hull had effects equivalent to those of a modern hand grenade, and failed to vaporize any surrounding hull material. In fact, all it did was scortch the outer hull.
In Star Trek V, a photon torpedo fired at God demonstrated explosive power no more impressive than that of a few kilograms of C4 explosives.
In Star Trek VI, we saw a photon torpedo moving down the line with Spock and McCoy playing with its innards. If it carried matter and antimatter in the tonnage range, the friction between the torpedo and its mount would have been utterly insufficient to overcome the torpedo's inertia due to the force required to move a massive object like that around. We also saw the torpedo being dropped from its mount into the firing tube. If it weighed many tons, it would have crushed the grating support underneath it. Same thing in Star Trek II when we saw a torpedo moving down a loading line.
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Durandal: this is trek you are dealing with remember, chemical reactions can give out more energy than AM/M reactions (Garths 20 oz planet killer).
ST 6: Im sure that the solution is that the photon torp wasn't upto full power (it could possibly of gone rogue after all).
God could have absorbed the power of the torp or the Key might of not wanted to kill the 3 captains that happened to be standing at ground zero.
I'm not saying I agree (I dont) but those aren't exactly enough to disprove his theory (although it is he who must prove it which I don't think he has done).
ST 6: Im sure that the solution is that the photon torp wasn't upto full power (it could possibly of gone rogue after all).
God could have absorbed the power of the torp or the Key might of not wanted to kill the 3 captains that happened to be standing at ground zero.
I'm not saying I agree (I dont) but those aren't exactly enough to disprove his theory (although it is he who must prove it which I don't think he has done).
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Oh, and one more thing. The TM quotes are extremely generous to Trek. Observation of explosions produced by photon torpedoes don't look any more powerful than modern chemical warheads. You may not think that 64 megatons is a lot, but the explosion would be utterly massive, at least as large as the Enterprise itself.
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Welcome to reality. It's utterly impossible to release any more than 9E16 J of energy from 1 kg of matter, through any process. If we throw physics out the window just because Trekkies want inflated numbers from dialogue (from someone who claimed that a few centimeters cubed of metal could withstand gigawatt-level electrical discharges, no less), then we can only assume that the laws of physics in Star Trek are radically different from ours, and that any attempt to bridge the two universes would wind up in chaos.Durandal: this is trek you are dealing with remember, chemical reactions can give out more energy than AM/M reactions (Garths 20 oz planet killer).
So they reduced its payload by 6 or 7 orders of magnitude?ST 6: Im sure that the solution is that the photon torp wasn't upto full power (it could possibly of gone rogue after all).
Fair enough.God could have absorbed the power of the torp or the Key might of not wanted to kill the 3 captains that happened to be standing at ground zero.
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Or simple incompetency on the part of the crew. These are the people that quantify energy in Watts, and point to giant blue things in space and say, "Look! A spacetime distortion!"TheDarkling wrote:Durandal: I know its impossible but still.. there it is, same with the uber antimatter.
There are no doubt other examples but there is at least two examples of a material having more energy than it should.
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You mean "examples of a material having more energy than it should if we choose to interpret verbal hyperbole in an ultra-literal fashion despite obvious problems, the way Biblical fundamentalists do."TheDarkling wrote:Durandal: I know its impossible but still.. there it is, same with the uber antimatter.
There are no doubt other examples but there is at least two examples of a material having more energy than it should.
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If you go for the latter, then how the fuck do you ever intend to pit the two universes against each other? Why are you even bothering participating in a thread which attempts to quantify photon torpedo yield in SI units if you're just going to wave a magic wand and throw the laws of physics to the wind, anyway?TheDarkling wrote:They also live in a universe where event horrizon have holes in them and you can travel FTL (not to mention ships are lit up in space).
Given the choice between mass stupidity on the parts of multiple trained people and altering their universes physical laws I go for the latter, its just my choice.
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You honestly think altering the laws of physics is a more reasonable choice than just admitting that your precious starfleet officers make mistakes?TheDarkling wrote:They also live in a universe where event horrizon have holes in them and you can travel FTL (not to mention ships are lit up in space).
Given the choice between mass stupidity on the parts of multiple trained people and altering their universes physical laws I go for the latter, its just my choice.
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Hmmmm ... believes in inerrancy of anointed person's words over the laws of physics and direct observation ... insists that if logic and observation contradict a person, they should be discarded rather than question the person ... this attitude sounds so familiar. Where is it from ... hmmmm ... I can't place it ...TheDarkling wrote:They also live in a universe where event horrizon have holes in them and you can travel FTL (not to mention ships are lit up in space).
Given the choice between mass stupidity on the parts of multiple trained people and altering their universes physical laws I go for the latter, its just my choice.
Wait, I know! TheDarkling is a Star Trek Fundie!!
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
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http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
Correct me if im wrong, but dont the power output figures for ISDs require us to annihilate really, really insane amounts of antimatter? (assuming they were powered by A-M annihliation, which they are not).
Ulitmately, no defense of ST in a ST/SW crossover situation is possible until/unless the ST people find some way to divorce themselves from Antimatter=Antimatter. If I recall correctly, we already have some cases of a thing being called in a movie/T.V. show/whatever by some term other than the real-world identical one.
Ulitmately, no defense of ST in a ST/SW crossover situation is possible until/unless the ST people find some way to divorce themselves from Antimatter=Antimatter. If I recall correctly, we already have some cases of a thing being called in a movie/T.V. show/whatever by some term other than the real-world identical one.
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It is irrelevant whether ST antimatter is real antimatter. What matters is results, and when it comes to observed results of weapons, what have we seen? The TDiC planet was not even glowing as brightly as a forest fire. They couldn't blast the Pegasus asteroid (not even 10 km wide) in a single shot, or they would have done so. This makes the Enterprise inferior to Slave-1.Marcus wrote:Ulitmately, no defense of ST in a ST/SW crossover situation is possible until/unless the ST people find some way to divorce themselves from Antimatter=Antimatter. If I recall correctly, we already have some cases of a thing being called in a movie/T.V. show/whatever by some term other than the real-world identical one.
SLAVE-1. A one-man patrol craft with a fucking kid's booster seat installed in the back, like the family station wagon.
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC
"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness
"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html