Crossover Maniac

[Darth Wong]

Hey CM, since you tried to start a debate about SW range vs ST range and the thread got closed for being a thread hijack and implicit concession of the original thread subject on your part (way to embarrass yourself by changing subjects and hoping no one would notice), I thought you might want to continue here.

Your assertion is that Star Trek combat ranges are tens of thousands of kilometres. I and many others have pointed out that Star Trek combat ranges are always more like 3 kilometres. You have used a dizzying array of fallacies in order to support your claim.

So let's have it out, shall we? Prove your claim that ST has effective combat weapon range of 40,000 km. While you're at it, explain why Voyager could not continue engaging Equinox after it went into the atmosphere unless it followed the other ship in. Explain why Worf could manually target weapons in "Redemption". Explain why Sisko ordered his crew to close to 500 metres before firing in TDiC (and no, they weren't cloaked at the time). See the clip.

[Lord Poe]

Hope you don't mind me sticking my nose in....

Hey CM, since you tried to start a debate about SW range vs ST range and the thread got closed for being a thread hijack and implicit concession of the original thread subject on your part (way to embarrass yourself by changing subjects and hoping no one would notice), I thought you might want to continue here.

BTW, as per his name, this guy mirrors threads from sb.com. I think its probably Demios.

Your assertion is that Star Trek combat ranges are tens of thousands of kilometres. I and many others have pointed out that Star Trek combat ranges are always more like 3 kilometres. You have used a dizzying array of fallacies in order to support your claim.

So let's have it out, shall we? Prove your claim that ST has effective combat weapon range of 40,000 km.

The longest range I've ever come across for Trek was in DS9's "Return to Grace." A Cardassian freighter was able to pop asteroids from 300,000 km away. This same weapon, however, was shrugged off by an unshielded Klingon BoP.

While you're at it, explain why Voyager could not continue engaging Equinox after it went into the atmosphere unless it followed the other ship in.

Heh. In the episode "Thirty Days", Voyager couldn't target the Delta Flyer from ORBIT, because it sank too far into an ocean. In "In The Flesh", Voyager's weapons range to the 8472 Starfleet bubble was 5,000km!

Explain why Worf could manually target weapons in "Redemption". Explain why Sisko ordered his crew to close to 500 metres before firing in TDiC (and no, they weren't cloaked at the time). See the clip.

I can't explain that one either.

[Darth Wong]

The longest range I've ever come across for Trek was in DS9's "Return to Grace." A Cardassian freighter was able to pop asteroids from 300,000 km away. This same weapon, however, was shrugged off by an unshielded Klingon BoP.

Heh heh. Asteroid shots are a theoretically ideal condition. Target's following a predictable path, there's zero ECM, your own ship is not maneuvering, etc. When Trekkies bring this up, I would point out that this is like hitting bulls-eyes on a shooting range and then expecting to have the same accuracy while running and shooting from the hip (not that we haven't come to expect this kind of "logic" from people like CM, of course )

[Kamakazie Sith]

I know this is you favorite episode but what about TNG "The Wounded"

The range was at least 200,000KM, and the Phoenix was able to effectively destroy those Cardassian ships at that range. Thus the conclusion is that they possess the range, but hardly ever employ use it because of unknown reason.....but one of those reasons is not because their weapons are ineffective at that range.

[AdmiralKanos]

I know this is you favorite episode but what about TNG "The Wounded"

The range was at least 200,000KM, and the Phoenix was able to effectively destroy those Cardassian ships at that range. Thus the conclusion is that they possess the range, but hardly ever employ use it because of unknown reason.....but one of those reasons is not because their weapons are ineffective at that range.

They used torpedoes. Missile range is dictated by fuel, not accuracy. I have no problem with torpedoes hitting a ship with inferior countermeasures and maneuverability from hundreds of thousands of km away. My problem is with the common Trekkie belief that a maneuvering vessel can actually hit another maneuvering vessel with direct-fire weapons from that range.

[Slartibartfast]

Before crossdressing_maniac comes and says something about visuals and slow/fast motion, let me point a huge flaw in this reasoning:

He actually thinks that when you play footage in fast forward you actually accelerate matter - he said that the destruction of Alderaan was in FF so the blast was actually barely enough to blow up the planet. So the debris wasn't actually fast enough to overcome gravity, yet thanks to magical Fast Forward it achieved enough velocity.

[Master of Ossus]

Before crossdressing_maniac comes and says something about visuals and slow/fast motion, let me point a huge flaw in this reasoning:

He actually thinks that when you play footage in fast forward you actually accelerate matter - he said that the destruction of Alderaan was in FF so the blast was actually barely enough to blow up the planet. So the debris wasn't actually fast enough to overcome gravity, yet thanks to magical Fast Forward it achieved enough velocity.

Does he actually think that? Is anyone actually that stupid?

[Kamakazie Sith]

Before crossdressing_maniac comes and says something about visuals and slow/fast motion, let me point a huge flaw in this reasoning:

He actually thinks that when you play footage in fast forward you actually accelerate matter - he said that the destruction of Alderaan was in FF so the blast was actually barely enough to blow up the planet. So the debris wasn't actually fast enough to overcome gravity, yet thanks to magical Fast Forward it achieved enough velocity.

[Ghost Rider]

Before crossdressing_maniac comes and says something about visuals and slow/fast motion, let me point a huge flaw in this reasoning:

He actually thinks that when you play footage in fast forward you actually accelerate matter - he said that the destruction of Alderaan was in FF so the blast was actually barely enough to blow up the planet. So the debris wasn't actually fast enough to overcome gravity, yet thanks to magical Fast Forward it achieved enough velocity.

I see once again when I believe I have seen the bottom...someone outdoes that

[AdmiralKanos]

Does he actually think that? Is anyone actually that stupid?

Yes, he says the Alderaan blast was time-lapse photography without giving any reason other than his claim that it can't be proven not to be. He also ignores the fact that Kenobi sensed the destruction of Alderaan and they came up on Alderaan in the same scene a few minutes later with no cutaways, and the planet was already so far gone that there was nothing left but a meteor shower.

CM thinks he's a lot more clever than he really is. For example, when confronted with the TDiC Defiant example, he gave me a lot of smart-ass remarks about how I was obviously too stupid to recognize that the Defiant has a cloaking device, and you always decloak close to the enemy to gain the advantage of surprise.

Small problem: I have the video clip of that incident on my website, so he can't bullshit about what happened. The Defiant approached from 50km to 500m with JH ships taking shots at it (and mostly missing) the whole time. And it was uncloaked. You've gotta love it when some guy tries to be a smart-ass in his rebuttal and just makes himself look ridiculous.

[Zaku-chan]

In the thread Wong is referring to, he shot his mouth off about weapons without fully researching them first. He was promptly set upon by Shinova, Necronlord, and myself, and tried to bluster his way out. Simple logic defeated pretty much all of his wild claims, which I think he thought up on the spot to avoid a Concession.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Before crossdressing_maniac comes and says something about visuals and slow/fast motion, let me point a huge flaw in this reasoning:

He actually thinks that when you play footage in fast forward you actually accelerate matter - he said that the destruction of Alderaan was in FF so the blast was actually barely enough to blow up the planet. So the debris wasn't actually fast enough to overcome gravity, yet thanks to magical Fast Forward it achieved enough velocity.

It's the same "artistic liscence" nonsense rabid Trekkies use as an excuse to give low weapon power for SW weapons. I believe he once said the blast wasn't all that powerful because the SW.com site mentioned survivors from Alderran.

[Antediluvian]

And Crossover Maniac claims he's studying to be an engineer?

I wondered if he was lying, and from seeing these examples, I think he probably was.

If he isn't, I'm staying far away from anything he's building.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Hey CM, since you tried to start a debate about SW range vs ST range and the thread got closed for being a thread hijack and implicit concession of the original thread subject on your part (way to embarrass yourself by changing subjects and hoping no one would notice), I thought you might want to continue here.

I'm getting a little sick and tired of you claiming I was trying to change the subject of the thread. The thread went like this:

CM: the range of the CC's frag cannon's are 45 metra (approximately 50 km)

SN (SirNitnam): So, what. ST ships have about the same range

CM: *So canon evidence that ST has a range of thousands of km*

SN: that's not backed by the visuals

CM: So what, the visuals in SW: ep IV doesn't back up a torpedo doing a 72,000 g turn, either, but I take your word for it that it does.

DarthWong: You changed the subject.

The subject was the range of ST ships. SN said we could only go by the visuals. I said the visuals were distorted to allow the audience to view both ships dispite the distances between them.

Your assertion is that Star Trek combat ranges are tens of thousands of kilometres. I and many others have pointed out that Star Trek combat ranges are always more like 3 kilometres. You have used a dizzying array of fallacies in order to support your claim.

Let's see. First I said the visuals were diberately distorted by the producers of the show. Then you claimed that's only valid for time duration (fast forwards and slow-mo) but not ranges. Then I said that assumption would effect your DS energy blast calculations. You then said it wouldn't because from the time Obi Wan felts the deaths of Alderaan through the Force to the time Han left hyperspace was only a few minutes without cutting to any other scenes. However, there was one cut.

INTERIOR: DEATH STAR -- CONFERENCE ROOM.

Imperial Officer Cass stands before Governor Tarkin and the
evil Dark Lord Darth Vader.

TARKIN: Yes.

OFFICER CASS: Our scout ships have reached Dantooine. They found the
remains of a Rebel base, but they estimate that it has been deserted
for some time. They are now conducting an extensive search of the
surrounding systems.

TARKIN: She lied! She lied to us!

VADER: I told you she would never consciously betray the Rebellion.

TARKIN: Terminate her...immediately!

Apparently, from the time Alderaan was blown to bits to the Falcon's arrival, Tarkin had time enough time to send out scouts ships to Dantooine to confirm Leia's claim that a Rebel base was on the planet. Taking into account that Tarkin sent a message to the nearest scout ships to Dantooine (which is in the Outer Rim) and hyperspace travel time, get into orbit, do a scan of the base (assuming they didn't land on the surface to look over the base for themselves), deduce from evidence that the base was abandom for a long duration of time, and do an extensive search of the planets, moons, and asteroid in the Dantooine system, it's still going to take more than 'a few minutes' for all of this to take place. It still leaves a possiblity of the destruction of Alderaan being showed in fast forward. I only said it was a possibility. I'm not here to debate how much overkill Tarkin used in destroying Alderaan.

So let's have it out, shall we? Prove your claim that ST has effective combat weapon range of 40,000 km. While you're at it, explain why Voyager could not continue engaging Equinox after it went into the atmosphere unless it followed the other ship in. Explain why Worf could manually target weapons in "Redemption". Explain why Sisko ordered his crew to close to 500 metres before firing in TDiC (and no, they weren't cloaked at the time). See the clip.

[/quote]

Well, I did tell you it was awhile since I saw the episode as a warning that I wasn't sure about it. I concede that I should have seen the episode for myself again before throwing out that possibility. See you Saturday after finals.

[Typhonis 1]

Well long range Torpedo fire against Imperil ships is useless 1 Torps cant damage a destroyers shileds 2 according to either Spector of the Past or Vision of the Future they can pop Proton torpedoes that are fired from long distance hitting a phototorp shouldnt be a big problem

[Dark Primus]

Well long range Torpedo fire against Imperil ships is useless 1 Torps cant damage a destroyers shileds 2 according to either Spector of the Past or Vision of the Future they can pop Proton torpedoes that are fired from long distance hitting a phototorp shouldnt be a big problem

Photon torps doesn't have good speed on screen either.

[Master of Ossus]

Hey CM, since you tried to start a debate about SW range vs ST range and the thread got closed for being a thread hijack and implicit concession of the original thread subject on your part (way to embarrass yourself by changing subjects and hoping no one would notice), I thought you might want to continue here.

I'm getting a little sick and tired of you claiming I was trying to change the subject of the thread. The thread went like this:

CM: the range of the CC's frag cannon's are 45 metra (approximately 50 km)

SN (SirNitnam): So, what. ST ships have about the same range

CM: *So canon evidence that ST has a range of thousands of km*

SN: that's not backed by the visuals

CM: So what, the visuals in SW: ep IV doesn't back up a torpedo doing a 72,000 g turn, either, but I take your word for it that it does.

DarthWong: You changed the subject.

In other words, you changed the subject. You guys had been talking about the range of CC weapons, and ST weapons. You then introduced the red herring of SW weapons. That had nothing to do with anything, if not an attempt to high-jack the thread.

The subject was the range of ST ships. SN said we could only go by the visuals. I said the visuals were distorted to allow the audience to view both ships dispite the distances between them.

How can you make such an assumption? Remember that we are working under suspension of disbelief. Characters can be mistaken, visuals cannot. Moreover, if the ships were a large distance apart, we would expect to see the ships firing, leading each other with their weapons fire, or even ceasing fire while re-acquiring targets, while the beam fired was still propogating towards its target. We see none of this.

Your assertion is that Star Trek combat ranges are tens of thousands of kilometres. I and many others have pointed out that Star Trek combat ranges are always more like 3 kilometres. You have used a dizzying array of fallacies in order to support your claim.

Let's see. First I said the visuals were diberately distorted by the producers of the show.

Demonstrate that the ranges were altered. We are still operating under suspension of disbelief.

Then you claimed that's only valid for time duration (fast forwards and slow-mo) but not ranges.

Time dilation can usually be observed, and documented when it is taking place. We see no evidence that the ranges are artificially shortened in the ST show.

Then I said that assumption would effect your DS energy blast calculations. You then said it wouldn't because from the time Obi Wan felts the deaths of Alderaan through the Force to the time Han left hyperspace was only a few minutes without cutting to any other scenes. However, there was one cut.

In other words, you completely changed the subject again. Instead of debating ST vs. CC, you took to attacking SW for no reason.

INTERIOR: DEATH STAR -- CONFERENCE ROOM.

Imperial Officer Cass stands before Governor Tarkin and the
evil Dark Lord Darth Vader.

TARKIN: Yes.

OFFICER CASS: Our scout ships have reached Dantooine. They found the
remains of a Rebel base, but they estimate that it has been deserted
for some time. They are now conducting an extensive search of the
surrounding systems.

TARKIN: She lied! She lied to us!

VADER: I told you she would never consciously betray the Rebellion.

TARKIN: Terminate her...immediately!

Apparently, from the time Alderaan was blown to bits to the Falcon's arrival, Tarkin had time enough time to send out scouts ships to Dantooine to confirm Leia's claim that a Rebel base was on the planet. Taking into account that Tarkin sent a message to the nearest scout ships to Dantooine (which is in the Outer Rim) and hyperspace travel time, get into orbit, do a scan of the base (assuming they didn't land on the surface to look over the base for themselves), deduce from evidence that the base was abandom for a long duration of time, and do an extensive search of the planets, moons, and asteroid in the Dantooine system, it's still going to take more than 'a few minutes' for all of this to take place. It still leaves a possiblity of the destruction of Alderaan being showed in fast forward. I only said it was a possibility. I'm not here to debate how much overkill Tarkin used in destroying Alderaan.

The superlaser shot of the Death Star must also have been sped up, but this is not what we see. Its beam propogated at (surprise) the same speed as the beam in RotJ, in which it would have been impossible to speed up the shooting speed without also speeding up the starships involved. The explosions began before the DS beam stopped firing, and the debris from the first explosion can be seen as not speeding up or slowing down significantly, at least until the large secondary explosions are seen. Thus, unless you are claiming that the producers shot the DS attack on Alderaan in real-time and then arbitrarily decided to speed it up at the precise instant of the stopping of the second explosion (while simultaneously slowing down the mysterious rings for no apparent reasons), you have no case that this is true. And you claim to be an engineer?

So let's have it out, shall we? Prove your claim that ST has effective combat weapon range of 40,000 km. While you're at it, explain why Voyager could not continue engaging Equinox after it went into the atmosphere unless it followed the other ship in. Explain why Worf could manually target weapons in "Redemption". Explain why Sisko ordered his crew to close to 500 metres before firing in TDiC (and no, they weren't cloaked at the time). See the clip.

Well, I did tell you it was awhile since I saw the episode as a warning that I wasn't sure about it. I concede that I should have seen the episode for myself again before throwing out that possibility. See you Saturday after finals. [/quote][/quote]

I look forward to it.

[SPOOFE]

Apparently, from the time Alderaan was blown to bits to the Falcon 's arrival, Tarkin had time enough time to send out scouts ships to Dantooine to confirm Leia's claim that a Rebel base was on the planet.

Yeah. And the problem with this is...?

[Darth Wong]

I'm getting a little sick and tired of you claiming I was trying to change the subject of the thread.

You started attacking SW in a CC vs ST thread. Gee, how unreasonable of me to think you changed the subject

Let's see. First I said the visuals were diberately distorted by the producers of the show.

"Deliberate" requires intent. You must produce evidence of that intent before claiming it as fact.

Then you claimed that's only valid for time duration (fast forwards and slow-mo) but not ranges.

Correct, because slow-mo and time-lapse footage exists in real life.

Then I said that assumption would effect your DS energy blast calculations.

It is not an assumption; it is an application of real-world principles.

You then said it wouldn't because from the time Obi Wan felts the deaths of Alderaan through the Force to the time Han left hyperspace was only a few minutes without cutting to any other scenes. However, there was one cut.

No, the Falcon's destination buzzer sounds and Han says "looks like we're coming up on Alderaan" and then gets up to go to the cockpit before the cut-scene you mention. There is a single continuous scene between Obi-Wan sensing the destruction of Alderaan and the Falcon arriving at the target system.

Apparently, from the time Alderaan was blown to bits to the Falcon's arrival, Tarkin had time enough time to send out scouts ships to Dantooine to confirm Leia's claim that a Rebel base was on the planet. Taking into account that Tarkin sent a message to the nearest scout ships to Dantooine (which is in the Outer Rim) and hyperspace travel time, get into orbit, do a scan of the base (assuming they didn't land on the surface to look over the base for themselves), deduce from evidence that the base was abandom for a long duration of time, and do an extensive search of the planets, moons, and asteroid in the Dantooine system, it's still going to take more than 'a few minutes' for all of this to take place.

Justify that claim. Keep in mind that you don't know how close the nearest scout ship was to Dantooine, and that an abandoned base is probably obvious from orbit.

It still leaves a possiblity of the destruction of Alderaan being showed in fast forward. I only said it was a possibility. I'm not here to debate how much overkill Tarkin used in destroying Alderaan.

It is not enough to show that something is a "possibility". Alien abductions are a "possibility" too, but that doesn't mean we should take them seriously without something more substantial.

Well, I did tell you it was awhile since I saw the episode as a warning that I wasn't sure about it. I concede that I should have seen the episode for myself again before throwing out that possibility.

Then you shouldn't have shot your mouth off with smart-ass wisecracks about something which you didn't even know to be true.

[XPViking]

So if I record myself using a camcorder and then watch it later on the TV, do I conclude that I can move really fast if I hit the fast foward button?

XPViking

[Slartibartfast]

So if I record myself using a camcorder and then watch it later on the TV, do I conclude that I can move really fast if I hit the fast foward button?

XPViking

Actually more like: if I record you running really slow and jumping over a chasm, and you don't have enough velocity and fall and die, if I play it later on FF you'll move really fast and you make it to the other side

[SirNitram]

*rolls in in wheelchair, dragging his IV*

Wow, I'm being slandered by a fucking moron.

Funny, I'm not surprised. Sadly, I'm in no mental state, nor psychological mood, to deal with your bullshit, CM. The thread was ST vs. FS. You were dancing around the '45 metras' quote like a naked guy at a bonfire, and what a pity, your nuts got burned when I pointed out that's equal or superior to ST range. You, in fact, introduced two subject changes: First, skipping forward to TNG for your range figures, and two, bringing SW in the range party.

Of course, you will no more admit to this than admit to your first attempt at a fallacy in the face of superior intellect, your claiming of bias against myself against IG-88E.

If you don't check threads in the OT forum, I'm just back from the hospital. I am not going to debate you yet. Of course, if you're so stupid you still believe these claims once I am back up and running, I will gladly rape you with proof.

Now someone send me a goddamn nurse with an outfit two sizes smaller than it ought to be!

[XPViking]

Slartibartfast,

It's simply astounding.

XPViking

[Kamakazie Sith]

Now someone send me a goddamn nurse with an outfit two sizes smaller than it ought to be!

She is in the mail.........

[Crossover_Maniac]

Hey CM, since you tried to start a debate about SW range vs ST range and the thread got closed for being a thread hijack and implicit concession of the original thread subject on your part (way to embarrass yourself by changing subjects and hoping no one would notice), I thought you might want to continue here.

I'm getting a little sick and tired of you claiming I was trying to change the subject of the thread. The thread went like this:

CM: the range of the CC's frag cannon's are 45 metra (approximately 50 km)

SN (SirNitnam): So, what. ST ships have about the same range

CM: *So canon evidence that ST has a range of thousands of km*

SN: that's not backed by the visuals

CM: So what, the visuals in SW: ep IV doesn't back up a torpedo doing a 72,000 g turn, either, but I take your word for it that it does.

DarthWong: You changed the subject.

In other words, you changed the subject. You guys had been talking about the range of CC weapons, and ST weapons. You then introduced the red herring of SW weapons. That had nothing to do with anything, if not an attempt to high-jack the thread.

So, it's okay to discount the visuals such as the slow speed the proton torpedo turned as a distortion, but it isn't if it's in Trek's favor?

The subject was the range of ST ships. SN said we could only go by the visuals. I said the visuals were distorted to allow the audience to view both ships dispite the distances between them.

How can you make such an assumption? Remember that we are working under suspension of disbelief. Characters can be mistaken, visuals cannot. Moreover, if the ships were a large distance apart, we would expect to see the ships firing, leading each other with their weapons fire, or even ceasing fire while re-acquiring targets, while the beam fired was still propogating towards its target. We see none of this.

At a distance of 40,000 km, phasers will only take 0.13 seconds to transverse that distance. That's not much time to do any of the above while the beam is still propagating.

Your assertion is that Star Trek combat ranges are tens of thousands of kilometres. I and many others have pointed out that Star Trek combat ranges are always more like 3 kilometres. You have used a dizzying array of fallacies in order to support your claim.

Let's see. First I said the visuals were diberately distorted by the producers of the show.

Demonstrate that the ranges were altered. We are still operating under suspension of disbelief.[/quote]

I suppose you can show two ships at 40,000 km in the proper scale. Sorry, but the pixel size will be larger than the two ships if you showed a scene with two ships 40,000 km between each other.

Then you claimed that's only valid for time duration (fast forwards and slow-mo) but not ranges.

Time dilation can usually be observed, and documented when it is taking place. We see no evidence that the ranges are artificially shortened in the ST show.

And yet you have no evidence for the 72,000 g turn made by Luke's torpedo. No, no double standard here.

Then I said that assumption would effect your DS energy blast calculations. You then said it wouldn't because from the time Obi Wan felts the deaths of Alderaan through the Force to the time Han left hyperspace was only a few minutes without cutting to any other scenes. However, there was one cut.

In other words, you completely changed the subject again. Instead of debating ST vs. CC, you took to attacking SW for no reason.

So, in a discussion about messing around with the time scale, it's off-topic to talk about calculations that would be affected if the time scale was different. I was only pointing out that sword cuts both ways.

INTERIOR: DEATH STAR -- CONFERENCE ROOM.

Imperial Officer Cass stands before Governor Tarkin and the
evil Dark Lord Darth Vader.

TARKIN: Yes.

OFFICER CASS: Our scout ships have reached Dantooine. They found the
remains of a Rebel base, but they estimate that it has been deserted
for some time. They are now conducting an extensive search of the
surrounding systems.

TARKIN: She lied! She lied to us!

VADER: I told you she would never consciously betray the Rebellion.

TARKIN: Terminate her...immediately!

Apparently, from the time Alderaan was blown to bits to the Falcon's arrival, Tarkin had time enough time to send out scouts ships to Dantooine to confirm Leia's claim that a Rebel base was on the planet. Taking into account that Tarkin sent a message to the nearest scout ships to Dantooine (which is in the Outer Rim) and hyperspace travel time, get into orbit, do a scan of the base (assuming they didn't land on the surface to look over the base for themselves), deduce from evidence that the base was abandom for a long duration of time, and do an extensive search of the planets, moons, and asteroid in the Dantooine system, it's still going to take more than 'a few minutes' for all of this to take place. It still leaves a possiblity of the destruction of Alderaan being showed in fast forward. I only said it was a possibility. I'm not here to debate how much overkill Tarkin used in destroying Alderaan.

The superlaser shot of the Death Star must also have been sped up, but this is not what we see. Its beam propogated at (surprise) the same speed as the beam in RotJ,

No, it didn't. They both took about the same time to hit their target, but the shot taken at Alderaan was a distance of 75,000 km according to Curt Saxton's Star Wars Technical Commentary. The distance between the Rebel ships and the Death Star couldn't have been more than a few thousand km. The Alderaan beam propagated faster.

in which it would have been impossible to speed up the shooting speed without also speeding up the starships involved. The explosions began before the DS beam stopped firing, and the debris from the first explosion can be seen as not speeding up or slowing down significantly, at least until the large secondary explosions are seen. Thus, unless you are claiming that the producers shot the DS attack on Alderaan in real-time and then arbitrarily decided to speed it up at the precise instant of the stopping of the second explosion (while simultaneously slowing down the mysterious rings for no apparent reasons), you have no case that this is true.

You seem to miss the entire point I was making. You want to use differing time frames when I suits your purpose. When it doesn't you get uptight with me. Sorry, but unless you don't want to be accused of changing the standards in debate, I suggest stop flip-flopping about what standard you use in the debates.

And you claim to be an engineer?

I wasn't aware that extensive knowledge of Star Wars was needed to be considered an engineer.

Look, I started the entire ST vs. Farscape debate because of a brain bug that seem to infecting a lot of sci-fi shows. It started with the ST:TNG episode, Night Terror. The writers thought that a chemical explosive was more powerful than weapons with weapons with nuclear weapon-level yields. I mean, it was utter crap. Then it happened again in ST:Insurrection. The metryon gas Riker used against the So'na creating a chemical explosive. Then I saw the same brain bug in Farscape dealing with the chakan oil. I mean, PK's use this as the power source of their weapons? What the hell?!? I figured that, if it's agreed that nuclear weapon-level yields weapons> chemical incendiary weapons, according to the Wong commentaries, it would interesting to see if I post a NX-01 vs. CC fight. What happen was I realized how wrong I was. I'm sorry SirNitram for using the canon material you didn't like and not the canon material you wanted me to use. I'm sorry IG-88e for thinking that what Wong said about chemical weapons vs. multi-megaton weapons was valid for sci-fi ships besides ST ( I mean, what was I expecting from you? Proving metryon gas insn't hypermatter). Good bye. I'm sorry I troubled you trying to use a consistant standard for judging ships in vs. debates.