The Praxis Explosion, could the Feds have done it??

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-12-19 10:08pm

Is it possible that the Federation could be responsible for the Praxis Explosion. Say if Section 31 used a Subspace weapon (Top secret) on the Klingon Moon, that caused a chain reaction on it that created the powerful explosion and subsequent shockwave. It's a question that I'm curious of b/c I've been working on a fanfic regarding the situation and I'm curious to see if it's a possibility.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-12-19 10:38pm

Well....

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2002-12-19 10:45pm

Flying pink fairies could have done it too.
Or EDust Goldfish.
Or Magical Dancing Pandas.
Or Mechs sniping from building tops.

I don't suppose you have the slightest bit of support for your idea?

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-12-19 10:47pm

Howedar wrote:Flying pink fairies could have done it too.
Or EDust Goldfish.
Or Magical Dancing Pandas.
Or Mechs sniping from building tops.

I don't suppose you have the slightest bit of support for your idea?

I don't, but I think it's good speculation.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-12-19 10:50pm

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:I don't, but I think it's good speculation.

No, you have wild speculation. There is no reason to suppose it's anything but an accident. You need to have something, anything to back it up. You've got nothing.

Master of Ossus · Post by **Master of Ossus** » 2002-12-19 11:06pm

We, obviously, have no idea if the Feds could be responsible for it or not.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-12-19 11:21pm

It's just a scenario that I've been Playing around with. Based on what Star Trek: Insurrection Alluded to, It points out that Subspace weapons were outlawed by the Khitomer Convention. Knowing that you can assume that the Klingons, Romulans, and the Federation probably had Subspace weapons (or prototypes) or had at least dallied with the concept of Subspace weaponry prior to or during 2293. Say Section 31 (which I believe has been around since the start of the Federation) used this prototype to weaken the Klingons by putting a Subspace weapon on Praxis to cripple the Klingon's "key energy production facility," but in fact it did more damage than they realized.

Some info on Section 31:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/9038/about.html

My premise of my fanfic is that it's a possibility that Section 31 did place a Subspace weapon on Praxis. When a Subspace weapon goes off that had similar effect to the Praxis Explosion, One of my characters finds this out and petitions Starfleet witht the facts. THe Romulans who are fearful of a Federation/Klingon alliance (upsetting the Balance of power) learn of this possibilty and try to exploit it, to break up the Alliance. There are two possible scenarios.

1. It is not Section 31, but they did experiment with Subspace wepons
2. Section 31 did do it, end result, we have some pissed off Klingons.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-20 12:04am

Adds an extra term where none is necessary. It is an illogical theory unless there is some particular fact about the event which requires S31 participation.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-12-20 12:08am

Darth Wong wrote:Adds an extra term where none is necessary. It is an illogical theory unless there is some particular fact about the event which requires S31 participation.

Care To elaborate? Just Curious.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-20 12:12am

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Adds an extra term where none is necessary. It is an illogical theory unless there is some particular fact about the event which requires S31 participation.
Care To elaborate? Just Curious.

I'm referring to Occam's Razor, aka the logical principle of parsimony.

You are introducing extra parties to the explanation when the original explanation worked just fine without them.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-20 12:17am

Well, I think that even back then Section-31 had the ability to do such a thing, therefor they COULD have done this. However there is no supporting evidence and that makes this speculation at best. Furthermore there is apparent supporting evidence indicating poor saftey precautions on the part of the Klingons which led to the disaster.

Short answer. Section-31 likely had the capability, but there is no evidence supporting they did it and there is evidence indicating it was the fault of the Klingons.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-12-20 12:28am

Alyeska wrote:Well, I think that even back then Section-31 had the ability to do such a thing, therefor they COULD have done this. However there is no supporting evidence and that makes this speculation at best. Furthermore there is apparent supporting evidence indicating poor saftey precautions on the part of the Klingons which led to the disaster.

Short answer. Section-31 likely had the capability, but there is no evidence supporting they did it and there is evidence indicating it was the fault of the Klingons.

That's what would make my fanfic, interesting, you don't really know if they did, could, or would have done it.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-12-20 12:30am

Darth Wong wrote:
THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Adds an extra term where none is necessary. It is an illogical theory unless there is some particular fact about the event which requires S31 participation.
Care To elaborate? Just Curious.
I'm referring to Occam's Razor, aka the logical principle of parsimony.

You are introducing extra parties to the explanation when the original explanation worked just fine without them.

True. But it's just question I'm asking for the sake of a fanfic I've came up with. Is it a possibility that Sec 31 purposely set off an explosion. Since their motivation has alway been to protect the Federation at all cost. It wouldn't be out of their boundaries to do that (morally). My second question is would it make a good plot device??

Here are 2 possible scenerios (there are probably more)
1. It is not Section 31, but they did experiment with Subspace wepons. Which would lead to some possible mistrust with the Klingons for some time.
2. Section 31 did do it, end result, we have some pissed off Klingons. (if they found out.)

Another question
What would this do to the Federation if it is discovered in the 24th century? (Post Dominion War.)

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2002-12-20 01:50am

The problem would be that the existance of Section 31 is virtually unknown (at least within the Federation.) It would seem that the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians all tend to regard the Federation as naive and foolishly idealistic, and so it would be very difficult to make an implication like that believable. A more likely scenario would be implicating the Obsidian Order or the Tal Shiar.

Incidently, why a subspace weapon?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2002-12-20 01:52am

beyond hope wrote:The problem would be that the existance of Section 31 is virtually unknown (at least within the Federation.) It would seem that the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians all tend to regard the Federation as naive and foolishly idealistic, and so it would be very difficult to make an implication like that believable. A more likely scenario would be implicating the Obsidian Order or the Tal Shiar.

Incidently, why a subspace weapon?

Praxis was predominately a Subspace explossion.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2002-12-20 02:20am

Right, I've seen that in previous threads regarding the blast: what I mean is why couldn't conventional explosives or another form of sabotage have been used to trigger the subspace blast that did the real damage?

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2002-12-20 03:15am

Did Section 31 even exist in 2295?

My theory has always been that Praxis was the inevitable result of putting an RBMK-class antimatter production plant with no backup safety systems on any of the reactors on a dilithium-rich moon.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2002-12-20 05:03am

Section 31 claims to have existed from the very beginning of the Federation, they've just been hiding in the shadows all this time (thank you B&B

.) Since Praxis was described as a disaster just waiting to happen, I think that some more subtle form of sabotage than a subspace weapon would work better for Hooligan's fanfic unless there's a really important reason why it just has to be in there (like establishing that the Feds have the technology, maybe.)

It did give me an interesting thought though: the Romulans and Cardassians both have deservedly nasty reputations because of the actions of their spy organizations/secret police (the Tal Shiar and Obsidian Order, respectively.) It seems to me like saboteurs or spies from Section 31 could very easily exploit that by leaving signs of Cardassian or Romulan involvement behind... who's going to believe the Tal Shiar if they claim they weren't behind some shadowy plot?

CNS Sarajevo · Post by **CNS Sarajevo** » 2002-12-20 01:01pm

I like the idea, it's fun. It sounds like a plot twist they could use if DS9 was still running

.

The big, BIG drawback is that whoever planted the bomb has to be suicidal, beamed it there on a cloaked ship, or left it there for a very long time until he reached a safe distance. Or he had help from Klingons, which falls into place with ST6...though that would make Chang a lunatic.

Vertigo1 · Post by **Vertigo1** » 2002-12-20 03:17pm

Section 31 was in the original UFP charter, but it was 'removed' so that they would remain a mystery (ala Men in Black).

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-12-20 05:24pm

beyond hope wrote:Section 31 claims to have existed from the very beginning of the Federation, they've just been hiding in the shadows all this time (thank you B&B .) Since Praxis was described as a disaster just waiting to happen, I think that some more subtle form of sabotage than a subspace weapon would work better for Hooligan's fanfic unless there's a really important reason why it just has to be in there (like establishing that the Feds have the technology, maybe.)

Yes Section 31 was around when the Federation was first concieved. Nope B&B had absolutely nothing to do with DS9 in any way though. hat's why It was an actually interesting concept, it showed the Feds as not being so goody goody. Including the Subspace weapon is just a way to inplicate that the Federation could possibly be responsible. In my fanfic it's kinda left up in the air if the Feds did it. (but I'll probably decide that they didn't, who knows)

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-12-20 06:30pm

Also in my story I want to include a Successful Transwarp drive test by the Feds. Wouldn't the Klingons and the Romulans feel threatened by that too?

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2002-12-20 06:42pm

Well, it might work, if you structure it nicely, let's see...

The Badies (put here anyone you want) didn't want the Kithomer Accord.
OK, but what if the target of the whole operation wasn't the Accord per se, but the current Federation President?

Let's say that he was already having thoughts about bringing the Klingons into the Federation, on ending the Neutral Zone, of bringing peace once and for all, in private talks with the Vulcans, way before the Praxis explosion. The Badies hear this, and start to elaborate a plan to foil this ideia, since the main endorser is the President.

Enter the Praxis explosion, to entice a move by the Fed Pres.

Only a very selected few Klingons know of this plan, or better yet, you can throw the Klingons out of the loop, making Chang an opportunistic SOB, that saw a chance, totally independent of the Badies intentions, hell, even he believe the Praxis explosion was for real!
OK, so Section 31 blows up Praxis, making like an accident, the President sees his window of opportunity, and tells the Vulcan ambassador to open talks with the Klingon High Council. The Badies see their chance, and screw up Kirk in the meantime, eliminating a possible danger to the whole objective. And so on...

Anyway, it could work without jeopardizing continuity, we don't want a new B&B fac-simile, now do we?

THEHOOLIGANJEDI · Post by **THEHOOLIGANJEDI** » 2002-12-20 06:46pm

Warspite wrote:Well, it might work, if you structure it nicely, let's see...

The Badies (put here anyone you want) didn't want the Kithomer Accord.
OK, but what if the target of the whole operation wasn't the Accord per se, but the current Federation President?

Let's say that he was already having thoughts about bringing the Klingons into the Federation, on ending the Neutral Zone, of bringing peace once and for all, in private talks with the Vulcans, way before the Praxis explosion. The Badies hear this, and start to elaborate a plan to foil this ideia, since the main endorser is the President.

Enter the Praxis explosion, to entice a move by the Fed Pres.

Only a very selected few Klingons know of this plan, or better yet, you can throw the Klingons out of the loop, making Chang an opportunistic SOB, that saw a chance, totally independent of the Badies intentions, hell, even he believe the Praxis explosion was for real!
OK, so Section 31 blows up Praxis, making like an accident, the President sees his window of opportunity, and tells the Vulcan ambassador to open talks with the Klingon High Council. The Badies see their chance, and screw up Kirk in the meantime, eliminating a possible danger to the whole objective. And so on...

Anyway, it could work without jeopardizing continuity, we don't want a new B&B fac-simile, now do we?

Oh that's one thing I made sure of that it doesn't violate continuity.