A possible way for the Federation to...

[Faust von ASVS]

..give the Empire more of a bloody nose (I'm not going to say "Defeat the Empire"):

Using industrial replicators, replicate vast quantities of weapons-grade nuclear materials. Design large nukes in the high GT or even into the TT range.

These would be several hundred tons apiece and the size of a house, however a GCS with everything stripped out of the saucer (including interior walls and decks) might be able to carry a significant number of them.

You then need large industrial transporters. Rather than firing these nukes at the enemy ship like torpedoes, they are instead beamed to their target posistion right against the shields of the enemy ship, and immediately detonate. If Section 31 has any captured Dominion transporters (3LY range) lying around, they might want to pull those out and use them for long range attack.

Of course this premise has a number of possible pitfalls - it depends on Federation replicators having the ability to produce weapons-grade materials that will function properly in a nuke. (They might be able to do that, but then again they might not.) It also depends on the transporters being able to "fire" the nukes to target without being jammed by enemy ECM. But I just thought I'd throw in the idea and see what's made of it.

[Ted C]

Using industrial replicators,

Can you demonstrate the existence of "industrial replicators"?

replicate vast quantities of weapons-grade nuclear materials.

Can you demonstrate the ability of a replicator to convert one element into another? That would be essential for what you're proposing.

Design large nukes in the high GT or even into the TT range.

These would be several hundred tons apiece and the size of a house,

No kidding.

however a GCS with everything stripped out of the saucer (including interior walls and decks) might be able to carry a significant number of them.

Have you considered the amount of refitting that would be required to get these things onto Federation starships?

You then need large industrial transporters. Rather than firing these nukes at the enemy ship like torpedoes, they are instead beamed to their target posistion right against the shields of the enemy ship, and immediately detonate.

This could be problematic, since a Federation ship will generally need to drop its own shields to deploy the device. It's not impossible to beam out of a shielded ship, but it generally only happens under extremely controlled circumstances.

If Section 31 has any captured Dominion transporters (3LY range) lying around, they might want to pull those out and use them for long range attack.

Don't even start on completely unsubstantiated claims of what Section 31 might have at their disposal.

Of course this premise has a number of possible pitfalls - it depends on Federation replicators having the ability to produce weapons-grade materials that will function properly in a nuke. (They might be able to do that, but then again they might not.) It also depends on the transporters being able to "fire" the nukes to target without being jammed by enemy ECM. But I just thought I'd throw in the idea and see what's made of it.

At first glance, I'd say it's made out of air.

[neoolong]

Using industrial replicators,

Can you demonstrate the existence of "industrial replicators"?

I don't know about the rest of the stuff, but in the DS9 episode, "For the Cause," the Federation gave, or was planning to give, 12 industrial replicators to Cardassia to help rebuild.

So industrial replicators do exist.

[Faust von ASVS]

Using industrial replicators,

Can you demonstrate the existence of "industrial replicators"?

Yes. They are referred to more than once in DS9.

At a conference on DS9 Dukat talks of Cardassia making a gift of 15 industrial replicators to Bajor.

replicate vast quantities of weapons-grade nuclear materials.

Can you demonstrate the ability of a replicator to convert one element into another? That would be essential for what you're proposing.

I'm not sure on that. It's implied that they can convert energy to matter, although at times there seem to be restrictions on exactly what they can create. That's why I don't know if this would work or not. Maybe they could create enriched uranium etc, maybe they couldn't. It's speculation here.

Design large nukes in the high GT or even into the TT range.

These would be several hundred tons apiece and the size of a house,

No kidding.

however a GCS with everything stripped out of the saucer (including interior walls and decks) might be able to carry a significant number of them.

Have you considered the amount of refitting that would be required to get these things onto Federation starships?

Well, it's either that or use bulk freighters instead. I don't know what size ST freighters get up to.

You then need large industrial transporters. Rather than firing these nukes at the enemy ship like torpedoes, they are instead beamed to their target posistion right against the shields of the enemy ship, and immediately detonate.

This could be problematic, since a Federation ship will generally need to drop its own shields to deploy the device. It's not impossible to beam out of a shielded ship, but it generally only happens under extremely controlled circumstances.

Dropping their shields is a moot point, since even if they are up, a heavy turbolaser hit will overload them and destoy the ship.

If Section 31 has any captured Dominion transporters (3LY range) lying around, they might want to pull those out and use them for long range attack.

Don't even start on completely unsubstantiated claims of what Section 31 might have at their disposal.

I'm not claiming anything. I'm just speculating. IF they have it then they SHOULD use it. I never said they had it.

Of course this premise has a number of possible pitfalls - it depends on Federation replicators having the ability to produce weapons-grade materials that will function properly in a nuke. (They might be able to do that, but then again they might not.) It also depends on the transporters being able to "fire" the nukes to target without being jammed by enemy ECM. But I just thought I'd throw in the idea and see what's made of it.

At first glance, I'd say it's made out of air.

Maybe, maybe not.

[Enola Straight]

Replicators operate at the molecular resolution: they can synthesize macroscopic objects from a store of pre-existing elements and compounds.

Onlu a Transporter operates at the quantum resolution: the quantum resolution replicator (theoretically...does not exist) could arrange the very electrons, protons, and neutrons...and assign the proper spin to those particles...required for elemental synthesis and living flesh.

To get the proper amount of nuclear material, you would need a minimg technique called the Particle fountain. the fountain is positioned over a sample of ore...say, an asteroid...and a charged pulse of phaser/disruptor energy is fired on the surface. The resulting pulverized/molten/vaporized ore is beamed up in a continuous fasion...instead of discrete"batches" as in a normal transporter. The significant elements and compounds are separated and stored from the irrelevant portion of the ore which is discarded.

Transporter disruption due to radioactivity is counteracted with regular injections of technobabble .

[FettKyle]

Dropping their shields is a moot point, since even if they are up, a heavy turbolaser hit will overload them and destoy the ship.

Check that. Light turbolaser destroy fed ships. light also destroy Borg. Heavy turbolaser leaves no trace of either. To answer your question I think you might want to wait for a 1000 years before you actualy cause damage to ISD thats if SW doesn't advance further.

[Lord Pounder]

another apt question might abso be what kinda structeral integrity would the GCS have if "All the insides of the saucer was removed. Not much of a ship if it falls appart under it's own weight.

how will the GCS live long enough to deploy it's weponary? if unshielded and undefended the even a single TIE would wipe them all out. The only danger to the TIE would be the radiation as the GCS exloded

[Alyeska]

Dropping their shields is a moot point, since even if they are up, a heavy turbolaser hit will overload them and destoy the ship.

Check that. Light turbolaser destroy fed ships. light also destroy Borg. Heavy turbolaser leaves no trace of either. To answer your question I think you might want to wait for a 1000 years before you actualy cause damage to ISD thats if SW doesn't advance further.

So light TLs are rated at greater then 100 MT? I think not, if that was true then Tie-Fighters could neve really threaten the Falcon since it took an LTL hit.

[Ender]

I don't think you have the slightest idea of what would go into designing a TT level nuclear warhead. More likely they'd just have to strap together alot of MT nukes.

And I want to know how they are going to get close enough to hurt the ships. Come in in real space and they will get blown out of the sky. Detanate it at warp, and you do jack because of the subspace energy differences.

[Faust von ASVS]

Well I guess it comes down to Fed transporter range vs Imperial turbolaser range.

Can the Federation ship get in range to transport the nuke before the Star Destroyer can hit it?

[Ender]

Well I guess it comes down to Fed transporter range vs Imperial turbolaser range.

Can the Federation ship get in range to transport the nuke before the Star Destroyer can hit it?

Aside from the fact that it couldn't beam through the shields, no. Maximum observed TL ranges is a couple of AU.

As for effective range, that depends on how fast you rate the Mon Remonda at. There is a passage in either Solo Command or Iron Fist Where they were chasing down Zsinj and the time til maximum range is 1 minute, 10 seconds, the time til effective range is 38 seconds. The MR would be going all out to catch him, so high end (since it appears the theory of relativity makes engines on cruiser top off at .4 C) difference in maximum and effective range is 3,840,000 kilometers.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

This point is moot. Even if we assume the Feds did magicly invent a weapon that was the essence of pure technobabble and B&B, there range would not be sufficient to deploy it. They would atomized before they could say "engage." To further it, even if they had the range they would be in sparse numbers at best and would absolutley no impact on a war of any sort. A "bloody nose" is thus saying a bit much. Maybe a paper-cut, which to some may hurt more, however.

[beyond hope]

Strip the much-hated luxury crew quarters out: I'm sure you could find room for Faust Von ASVS's gigaton bomb launcher that way. Getting the things close enough to an Imperial ship to detonate is going to be the neat trick: they're going to be larger than the fighter craft that we've already seen Imperial capitol ships shoot down. Perhaps with a cloaking device that problem could be overcome. Either that or they could be designed to fire out the shuttle bay (suicide shuttles ala Star Fleet Battles.) The question, of course, would end up being just how big these things are and how many of them a Star Trek ship could carry. Anyone know about what size a 200 gigaton nuke would be, and how many of them at once it would take to get through an ISD's shields?

[HemlockGrey]

Perhaps they could phase-cloak, decloak and fire, and then try to phase again?

[Vympel]

[looks at thread]

Och jeez ...


*cue MacGuyver music*

[BenRG]

another apt question might abso be what kinda structeral integrity would the GCS have if "All the insides of the saucer was removed. Not much of a ship if it falls appart under it's own weight.

It is pretty close to that anyway. The GCS hull is purely exoskeletal and has very little rigid strength.

The bright guys at Parmount figured out that if they tried to build this thing for real, it would sag at the corners, and would compress or stretch along the axis of acceleration under multi-gravity acceleration. That is why they created the Structural Integrity Field (SIF), basically a set of forcefields that reinforces the rigidity of the hull.

Yes, Mike, that is another reason why the GCS design is pathetic. The thing would probably rip itself apart due to structural stresses if they tried to coat it with ablative armour like the Defiant or Voyager.

[SWPIGWANG]

The feds us BIG MIRROR to reflect the lazer weapons and kill the imps YAY

[beyond hope]

Perhaps they could phase-cloak, decloak and fire, and then try to phase again?

I was thinking more along the lines of smaller ships, something that they could build in sufficient numbers to overwhelm the point-defense guns of an imperial ship. I figure equipping them with reloads is a waste of time and resources: external pylons are probably the answer so that the Fed ships can fire and then run like hell right away. Even then, it's most likely not going to work against the big Imperial capitol ships: there's just too many guns to swat the missiles down. As a suppliment to photon and quantum torpedoes it may have some merit though, if you can get enough of these missiles built to make a difference. Whether you can construct enough cloaks to equip all the missiles would be another iffy part of the plan: on the bright side, we know passive sensors will work on a cloaked ship, so they should in theory be able to target an Imperial ship's energy emissions.

[Sea Skimmer]

The real problem is you'd need about a quarter million Quantum torpedoes to bring down one ISD shield vector. Going to take a fuckload of ships to bring that many to the fight and launch them in one massive salvo. The Federation can't hope to build enough ships to do it before being utterly crushed.

[beyond hope]

Yeah, that's why I like the high-yield nuke idea: quantum torpedoes appear to have a fairly limited availability, which suggests that the "make 'em bigger" idea for raising their power just won't work. I was thinking of a system along the lines of putting pylons on ships like the Defiants: it requires less alteration than trying to build in a launcher for the things, and perhaps they could use them as a stand-off weapon. Obviously you'll either still need an overwhelming salvo to get through the point-defense guns, or else equip the missiles with cloaks. The question would be whether the Feds could churn out nukes fast enough for it to matter at all.

[HemlockGrey]

Or, couldn't a ship load itself with these uber-nukes, phase-fly right next to an ISD, dephase and explode itself? A suicide boat, if you will.

[beyond hope]

No need for suicidal redshirts at the helm: revive the old M5 project and program them to fly the nuke up close to an ISD and then blow up. It probably won't be that effective against an ISD's teraton-level shields, but against the smaller ships like the Nebulon-B it may prove effective.

[Cpt_Frank]

Pity that the insignificant escorts and fighter screens normally do not form the spearhead of an invasion.

[FettKyle]

So light TLs are rated at greater then 100 MT? I think not, if that was true then Tie-Fighters could neve really threaten the Falcon since it took an LTL hit.

Look the Falcon had miltary grade shieds and no weapons online they could of deverted that power to shields and ties don't fire just once besides TIE's are designed for speed and heavy hitting. Besides how do we know that wasn't a laser that hit him instead of a TL?

[Imperial Officer Miller]

an you demonstrate the existence of "industrial replicators"?

In one of the TNG or DS9 episodes i saw they were replicating gifts, so i presume that they have the ability to make industrial replicators, oh yeah.. if they didn't.. how the he*l would they get on without money?