40m Rock Vs 6,194m McKinley

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2002-12-24 12:17am

Mt. McKinley in Alaska is the United States' biggest peak, at 20,320ft/6,194m. The Asteroid in TESB was, as everyone is clear to believe 40m. The amount of energy required to destroy a 40m rock must be very, very little, since the weak NX-01 Enterprise (in comparison to a Sovereign Class) can eliminate a mountain the Size of Mt. McKinley, as stated by Captain Archer in 'Silent Enemy’. This episode of Enterprise clearly shows that this was the First Starship fitted with Phasers, and would be classified as Phaser Mk I or even lower. Skip forward 228 years to Star Trek Nemesis and see the newest Phaser Mk XII. Clearly Mk XII is superior to Mk I, and if Mk I can eliminate a Mountain the size of Mt. McKinley, then the power of the Mk XII can eliminate a lot more than a mountain alone. Everyone claims that the power to completely eliminate a 40m rock is extremely great (terajoule range). But this is kinda stupid since the low level Phaser output of the NX-01 can destroy 6,194m in 3 to 5 seconds. There are two options…

1. The Imperial Star Destroyer is Weaker than everyone claims
2. The Federation's Sovereign Class is a lot Stronger than believed

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-24 12:28am

What is shown...once again you blather on that in such and such episode such and such happened, but give nothing more than conjecture that for all we know you're pulling it out your ass.

So please what is exactly said and shown...it this uber asteroid shown and what weapons used, and is the scaling done correctly or is the dialogue once again in complete opposite of what is shown.

Glocksman · Post by **Glocksman** » 2002-12-24 12:39am

1. The Imperial Star Destroyer is Weaker than everyone claims
2. The Federation's Sovereign Class is a lot Stronger than believed

You forgot to post the third choice:

3. Berman and Braga shit all over continuity and don't give a damn about being consistent from episode to episode, much less from series to series.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2002-12-24 12:42am

I've actually seen this episode. We see a moon-like planet with lots of impact craters. One of them has a raised central peak. The Enterprise fires at the central peak and blows it up, spewing dust and rubble all over the crater floor. The mountain wasn't vaporized and I have no idea how big the planet or the mountain was (I suspect it couldn't have been as big as Earth or Mars because it obviously had no atmosphere whatsoever). I don't recall if the mountain was visible from orbit. The "big as Mt. McKinley" "figure" comes from one offhanded remark made by Captain Archer. So far as I can recall, not mention was made of the mountain's height, base area, composition, or density.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-24 12:48am

Thanks...so we have

1. No vaporization.
2. Offhand comment made by the Captain.

This proves that the NX-01 can destroy big rocks...well so can nukes.

And much like RI did in his final part...no mention of size or any conclusive proof of what the rock was or how big was it.

Post by **Alyrium Denryle** » 2002-12-24 12:49am

However in that same episode it was stated that each phase cannon had a max yield of 500gigawatts, and that they could overload to 10 times that amount. or 5 terrawatts. About 1 kiloton. or, the firepower of a tie fighters weapons

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-24 12:50am

Notice how this blithering idiot assumes that 40m is an upper limit for the Star Destroyer, rather than a lower limit. So he seeks to limit ISD firepower to the destruction of 40 metre asteroids, even though a single Slave-1 seismic charge annihilated asteroids for 4 km in every direction.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2002-12-24 01:06am

even though a single Slave-1 seismic charge annihilated asteroids for 4 km in every direction.

As I recall, it broke them into peaces, it did not entierly annihilate it...

This proves that the NX-01 can destroy big rocks...well so can nukes.

Nukes create Kilotons of explosive power. but we have this...

With this we can calculate a rough figure of around 30 terajoules (TJ) to melt the asteroid, and around 250 TJ to vaporise it.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/index.html
This states that it takes 250 TJ to vaporise a 40m rock, why so much evergy when you can use a Kiloton nuke?

I see an explosion, not a Vaporized rock. Although you can argue that the rock vaporized after the explosion, you can not see this upclose, so you can only speculate...

I don't recall if the mountain was visible from orbit. The "big as Mt. McKinley" "figure" comes from one offhanded remark made by Captain Archer.

Well they zoom in as the Phasers destroy the 6,000m mountain, and Captain Archer is not a complete dumbass he knows of Mt. McKinley and his own ships information on this Rock they just scanned for Target practice.

Berman and Braga shit all over continuity and don't give a damn about being consistent from episode to episode, much less from series to series.

Canon is Canon...

So please what is exactly said and shown...it this uber asteroid shown and what weapons used, and is the scaling done correctly or is the dialogue once again in complete opposite of what is shown.

Canon is Canon, you should see the episode for youself...

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-24 01:11am

Sovereign wrote:As I recall, it broke them into peaces, it did not entierly annihilate it...

And according to RI...apparently this is the same to a lesser effect...no exactly vaporization.

Nukes create Kilotons of explosive power. but we have this...

You have what moron?

I see an explosion, not a Vaporized rock. Although you can argue that the rock vaporized after the explosion, you can not see this upclose, so you can only speculate...

Must be nice to be this ignorant and blind.

Well they zoom in as the Phasers destroy the 6,000m mountain, and Captain Archer is not a complete dumbass he knows of Mt. McKinley and his own ships information on this Rock they just scanned for Target practice.

Before we hit your I'm right and shut your ears bullshit...DID ARCHER SAY IT WAS 6,000M?!

Berman and Braga shit all over continuity and don't give a damn about being consistent from episode to episode, much less from series to series.

As for the rest...the burden of proof is upon you, dumbshit...learn what that means.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-24 01:13am

Sovereign wrote:
even though a single Slave-1 seismic charge annihilated asteroids for 4 km in every direction.
As I recall, it broke them into peaces, it did not entierly annihilate it...

Irrelevant nitpick, since the fact remains that the energy figure is vastly greater than the requirement for vapourizing 40 metre asteroids, hence the point stands. You are imbecilically confusing a lower limit for an upper limit.

This states that it takes 250 TJ to vaporise a 40m rock, why so much evergy when you can use a Kiloton nuke?

Why not?

I see an explosion, not a Vaporized rock. Although you can argue that the rock vaporized after the explosion, you can not see this upclose, so you can only speculate...

Bullshit. The asteroid flashes to white-hot and begins to expand from the far side in less than 1/15 second, which indicates a shockwave propagation speed greater than the speed of sound in the medium. Think about this, dumb-ass.

Well they zoom in as the Phasers destroy the 6,000m mountain, and Captain Archer is not a complete dumbass he knows of Mt. McKinley and his own ships information on this Rock they just scanned for Target practice.

Give us exact dialogue, complete with screenshots. You people invariably demand nothing less from us when we make claims, and we have expended considerable effort to provide it.

Canon is Canon, you should see the episode for youself...

Hey dickhead, the onus upon someone making a claim (particularly when that claim violates numerous established precedents) is to provide the evidence himself, not to demand that everyone else do his work for him.

PS. While you're at it, prove that Enterprise is "Star Trek" canon, since it is completely unrelated to Gene Roddenberry, does not fit into the continuity, and does not even have "Star Trek" in the name.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2002-12-24 01:19am

PS. While you're at it, prove that Enterprise is "Star Trek" canon, since it is completely unrelated to Gene Roddenberry, does not fit into the continuity, and does not even have "Star Trek" in the name.

Well, it has Klingons, Romulans, Tholians, etc. It says in the Beginning of the show, Based off Star Trek created by Gene Roddenberry, etc...

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-24 01:21am

Aside from the contradictions the show constantly portrays.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-24 01:26am

Sovereign wrote:
PS. While you're at it, prove that Enterprise is "Star Trek" canon, since it is completely unrelated to Gene Roddenberry, does not fit into the continuity, and does not even have "Star Trek" in the name.
Well, it has Klingons, Romulans, Tholians, etc. It says in the Beginning of the show, Based off Star Trek created by Gene Roddenberry, etc...

So does every single Star Trek computer game, not to mention every novel. And Gene Roddenberry EXPLICITLY told the fans that the novels don't count for shit. And BTW, I like the way you ignored the rest of my post, such as the part where I pointed out that the onus is on the person making a claim to provide the evidence for that claim.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-12-24 01:27am

Basic stuff for you here Sovereign:

In that episode the guns are stated to be 500 Gigajoules.

The low end lowerlimit of that asteroid is 250 terajoules. AKA 250,000 gigajoules/

250,000 > 500

You just defeated your own argument.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-12-24 01:28am

Sovereign wrote:
PS. While you're at it, prove that Enterprise is "Star Trek" canon, since it is completely unrelated to Gene Roddenberry, does not fit into the continuity, and does not even have "Star Trek" in the name.
Well, it has Klingons, Romulans, Tholians, etc. It says in the Beginning of the show, Based off Star Trek created by Gene Roddenberry, etc...

I highlighted the important part there for you. Again you defeat your own argument.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2002-12-24 01:34am

So does every single Star Trek computer game, not to mention every novel. And Gene Roddenberry EXPLICITLY told the fans that the novels don't count for shit.

Then the final seasons of TNG are SHIT and DS9 is SHIT, and VOY is SHIT and Star Trek's 6-10 are SHIT because Gene was not around to do these or have any parts of them. Most of the arguments presented by you are based around the shows he had no part in, so you data is futile and you have just contradicted yourself.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-12-24 01:35am

He wasnt around for Enterprise either. Again you defeat yourself.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-24 01:38am

In the same episode it claimed he phase cannons destroyed an object the size McKinley, a visual comparison of the phase cannon beam to the object that was destroyed show it to be far far smaller, maybe 100 by 75 meters.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-24 01:38am

Sovereign wrote:
So does every single Star Trek computer game, not to mention every novel. And Gene Roddenberry EXPLICITLY told the fans that the novels don't count for shit.
Then the final seasons of TNG are SHIT and DS9 is SHIT, and VOY is SHIT and Star Trek's 6-10 are SHIT because Gene was not around to do these or have any parts of them. Most of the arguments presented by you are based around the shows he had no part in, so you data is futile and you have just contradicted yourself.

How have I contradicted myself? Please find one public statement in which I have defended the canon status of Voyager.

At least TNG was started by Gene even if he wasn't around to finish it off. DS9 he knew about. But Voyager and Enterprise? Pure B&B shit, and you know it. I can write a fanfic tomorrow which is "based off Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek", but it won't actually be Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek, and that's the point.

PS. Again, I notice how you are fixating on this point and ignoring all of the other points.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2002-12-24 01:40am

In the same episode it claimed he phase cannons destroyed an object the size McKinley, a visual comparison of the phase cannon beam to the object that was destroyed show it to be far far smaller, maybe 100 by 75 meters.

Do you know the size of a Phaser Beam?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-24 01:40am

Sea Skimmer wrote:In the same episode it claimed he phase cannons destroyed an object the size McKinley, a visual comparison of the phase cannon beam to the object that was destroyed show it to be far far smaller, maybe 100 by 75 meters.

Not surprising, which is why I demanded screenshots and exact dialogue (and why he ignored that demand in order to attack the postscript to my message).

For as long as I've participated in these debates, Trekkie idiots like him have always interpreted verbal hyperbole as rock-solid empirical evidence. Nothing changes.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-12-24 01:40am

Sovereign wrote:
In the same episode it claimed he phase cannons destroyed an object the size McKinley, a visual comparison of the phase cannon beam to the object that was destroyed show it to be far far smaller, maybe 100 by 75 meters.
Do you know the size of a Phaser Beam?

Since we can do scaling based on the diameter of the barrel we see in that episode, yes.

Sovereign · Post by **Sovereign** » 2002-12-24 01:44am

But Voyager and Enterprise? Pure B&B shit

Comparing the Sovereign Class to a Star Destroyer is not smart since you say Gene had nothing to do with the Sovereign class design or construction. He created the 1701 and 1701-D, no other Enterprise, so although you argue that everything else is Shit, you still compare them to Star Wars...

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2002-12-24 01:46am

Sovereign wrote:
In the same episode it claimed he phase cannons destroyed an object the size McKinley, a visual comparison of the phase cannon beam to the object that was destroyed show it to be far far smaller, maybe 100 by 75 meters.
Do you know the size of a Phaser Beam?

I'm eyeballing it. We know the size of Enterprise and we can scale the size of the beam from that. While my figures are very inaccurate, they are not off by anything like the margin your argument requires, which is orders of magnitude.

In any case, you've presented zero evidence. Provide some screen shots and prove that I'm wrong. If you can't, then shut the fuck up.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-12-24 01:47am

Sovereign wrote:
But Voyager and Enterprise? Pure B&B shit
Comparing the Sovereign Class to a Star Destroyer is not smart since you say Gene had nothing to do with the Sovereign class design or construction. He created the 1701 and 1701-D, no other Enterprise, so although you argue that everything else is Shit, you still compare them to Star Wars...

Question for the rest of the board:

Was there anything coherently resembling an argument in that post?