The reason the UFP is moneyless

[FaxModem1]

You can get anything you want from the replicator in you house, want a vase? use the replicator? want a snack, use the replicator, want a book? use the replicator.

Its so simple, that may be one of the biggest reasons why they don't have currency.


Any thoughts?

[Admiral_K]

How does one acquire a replicator? Who pays for the power the replicator uses to do its work? Also, it is quite clear that the replicator is not the end all be all of items. Replicated items are often regaurded as "not as good as the real thing" particularly in the area of foods. How do they decide who gets the "better" things?

There are many items it can't create (latinum for example), be it because it requires raw materials or because the patterns are too complex. Personally, I think the first explanation is more viable because if the items are too complex to replicate, It would seem to me that those items can't be moved with a transporter either, and we hardly ever see that.

Incidentally, there MUST be some sort of currency that the federation uses and pays its employees with. Otherwise, how could they afford to buy things from quark, or do business with other alien races. Now, at the same time I'm sure there is an extensive welfare system since poverty was "eliminated".

[Darth Wong]

You can get anything you want from the replicator in you house, want a vase? use the replicator? want a snack, use the replicator, want a book? use the replicator.

Its so simple, that may be one of the biggest reasons why they don't have currency.

Any thoughts?

I have heard this so many times from so many idiotic Trekkies that I'm simply bored to tears with it.

Try this on for size: using your "logic", you can get anything you want from electricity. Want heat? Use electricity. Want to watch TV? Use electricity. Want air conditioning? Use electricity. Want light? Use electricity. Just flip a switch and it's done, right?

But wait a minute ... electricity is not just a magic switch, is it? We have to pay for electricity, don't we? And people have to work constantly maintaining power generation plants and the distribution grid, don't they? And even appliances with no moving parts such as light bulbs wear out and must be replaced, don't they?

Do you see the flaw in your "reasoning"?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

You can get anything you want from the replicator in you house, want a vase? use the replicator? want a snack, use the replicator, want a book? use the replicator.

Its so simple, that may be one of the biggest reasons why they don't have currency.


Any thoughts?

Wrong. To use a replicator requires three things.

A) Raw materials to synthesize into final product.

B) Energy to power the replicator.

C) Some manner of template that the replicator uses to figure out how to assemble said raw materials into a final product.

All of these have to carry some sort of cost. For example, it costs energy and man-hours to mine the raw resouces, refine them, and then ship them to your replicator. It also costs time and resources to generate the power.

Where replicators may have driven the UFP to a centralized communist economy is in part C) the templates used to program the replicators. A replicator is pretty worthless unless it can replicate something. Now say when replicators came out, we had some companies that built replicators, and wrote the assembly algoritms to build with them.

Now, imagine that, like with today's music or software industry, both of which are prime examples of industries marketing IP (intellectual property,) we have people who don't want to pay full-price for their software/CD/replicator algorithms. So, they simply steal them.

The companies that build replicators and write the algorithms would be pretty pissed. So, they pressure the government to increasingly regulate and restrict replicator trade. Since the UFP already has a strong socialist bent, it readily agrees. Eventually, replicators, like the power grid, schools, and agriculture, become centralized in the Federation. And since a replicator can take the place of light industry, there's no need for money, as all the essential needs have been provided by the government. Everybody becomes part of the government dole.

However, it has been said that there are things that replicators can't replicate that well. As a result, you have small cottage industries, mom & pop operations, that spring up to provide goods and services that the government can't readily supply. (For example, Picard's vineyard and Sisko's resturaunt. -- given that we know that replicators can't quite replicate food to the degree demanded by sophisticated palates.)

As a result, you have a situation that very much resembles the modern UFP. All the essential basics are provided by the government. It controls all the utilities and services. However, it permits the existence of very small scale local businesses, such as gambling establishments and resturaunts, because the government can't realistically compete in those areas.

Thoughts?

[The Yosemite Bear]

Strangely, the Orion's are part of the UFP (Against their will), and yet their curancy is still used in trades with the Klingon Empire, the Romulons, & other powers. So there really is money, primarily shown in DS9 to be used to EXPIDITE things. Also somethings can't be replicated.

[Sarevok]

You can get anything you want from the replicator in you house, want a vase? use the replicator? want a snack, use the replicator, want a book? use the replicator.

Its so simple, that may be one of the biggest reasons why they don't have currency.


Any thoughts?

A replicator rearranges atoms to make new objects. They can not change
one element into another. For example to make water a replicator would
need hydrogen and oxgen to work with. This means even if you have a
replicator you will need money to purchase the raw materials.

[FaxModem1]

It was just a thought, don't get your underware so out of wack people,

"OH NO, ITS A TREKKIE WITH A THEROY, KILL IT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!"

it was a spur of the moment theroy, and I wondered how close I was to the truth.

[Darth Wong]

Strangely, the Orion's are part of the UFP (Against their will), and yet their curancy is still used in trades with the Klingon Empire, the Romulons, & other powers. So there really is money, primarily shown in DS9 to be used to EXPIDITE things. Also somethings can't be replicated.

The Orion Syndicate is a criminal organization, so it goes without saying that while they may operate in UFP territory, they do not operate under the legitimate auspices of the UFP. They're more like the Russian mafias.

Besides, I believe they use latinum anyway.

[Darth Wong]

It was just a thought, don't get your underware so out of wack people,

"OH NO, ITS A TREKKIE WITH A THEROY, KILL IT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!"

If it's a dumb theory, yes. Deal with it.

it was a spur of the moment theroy, and I wondered how close I was to the truth.

It was a theory that betrayed no thought whatsoever. Don't get all whiny just because we didn't break the news to you as gently as you would have liked.

[FaxModem1]

couresy isn't exactly your strong suit, is it?

so I was way off balance, you could go, well actually blah blah.

not, That was without any thught at all, its totally stupid. its really blah blah blah

Would it hurt anyone, to learn to be courteous, and realize that not everyone is a genius, and that when they think they have something, they should post it without fear of being flamed for a lapse of judgement.

Is that hard, or do ya'll prefer flaming those who don't understand?

[Darth Wong]

couresy isn't exactly your strong suit, is it?

I give courtesy where it is warranted. Total strangers posting something on my webboard which has already been addressed countless times before, as well as on the main site, deserve no courtesy.

Would it hurt anyone, to learn to be courteous, and realize that not everyone is a genius, and that when they think they have something, they should post it without fear of being flamed for a lapse of judgement.

Would it hurt anyone to think before opening your mouth?

Is that hard, or do ya'll prefer flaming those who don't understand?

Read the site motto at the upper left corner of your screen.

[Admiral Piett]

Starships are built in slipways.Buildings are nearly certainly not replicated either.And probably several other things are built in more or less conventional ways.
This without mentioning that the degree of automation of the ST universe does not seem much higher than in the our (no droids).So you cannot have everything that you want by pressing a button.Certainly not a runabout for example.
Replicators are probably nothing more than a very convenient way to get small items for consumers and some industrial uses.
The federation has probably some sort of planned economy,vaguely similar to the soviet Union,albeit it replaces monetary salaries with non monetary compensations,probably a combination of social approval,assignation of luxury goods, brainwashing etc.Small sums paid in hard currency (latinum) may be included in the list however.The costs are probably calculated directly in terms of raw material,energy,man hours etc or maybe with some artificial currency used only for administrative purposes.
This at least is my hypothesis based on what I know of the soviet economy. Please, no one try to use Picard's farm or similar as a proof of the TNG era economy not being planned.Small farms and others small activities were run by private individuals even in the Soviet Union.

[Wicked Pilot]

[beyond hope]

Simple reason: the United Federation of Planets is communist.

[Oberleutnant]

Simple reason continued: but even communist countries use currency.

[Oberleutnant]

Sorry, I clicked "submit" too quickly...

Everyone's favorite Trekker, Mr. Kennedy, has written an article about the use of money in Star Trek. I know what you are thinking, but it's actually quite informative.

http://www.ditl.org/index.htm?daymain=/ ... dmoney.htm

Trek continuity is messed and this part is no exception...

[Darth Wong]

Kennedy has been, and always will be an idiot. He considers it a "contradiction" that TNG portrays a communist society while TOS portrays a capitalist society. Doesn't it occur to him that a shift to communism could easily occur in the 80-year gap between TOS and TNG? Did it take 80 years for China or Russia to go red?

He also thinks that the use of precious substances like gold or substances like latinum represents "money" in Star Trek, when it actually represents a reversion to primitive barter. And finally, he acknowledges that the Federation officially disavows the use of money but he considers it a "contradiction" that many individual Federation citizens unofficially buy things, usually with the aforementioned precious substances. Once again, this is actually typical of societies which have outlawed capital; the black market springs up to fill the gap, as it did in Russia.

His theory (that humans have eliminated money, but the Federation hasn't) is insane. Some people say that with "Earth" being the holdout instead of "humans", but of course, humans still observe these rules even when they are far from Earth. So unless the Federation has species-specific laws and species-segregated economies (which would make it a highly racist and unbelievably inefficient socio-economic system), this explanation simply doesn't wash.

What he seeks to explain with the absurd notion of species-specific laws and economies is far more easily explained with the theory of a black market thriving in a communist society. This explanation is all the more reasonable when we have actually observed this black market, in the form of the Orion Syndicate.

Theory 1: requires species-segregated economies and species-specific laws in the Federation, which are not only absurd on the surface but grossly inefficient and virtually unworkable in a society based on interplanetary resource sharing. Worse yet, these artificial segregations are not observed or mentioned anywhere.

Theory 2: requires the existence of a black market, already confirmed by observation and in conformance with historical precedents from real life.

Which theory is more reasonable? Theory 1 is concocted by Trekkie apologists like GK who either hate the idea of admitting the Federation is communist, or hate the idea of admitting I'm right about anything.

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

I suppose Feddies have to pay a "replicator tax". And it's probably through the roof.

For example to make water a replicator would
need hydrogen and oxgen to work with. This means even if you have a
replicator you will need money to purchase the raw materials.

Couldn't oyu make water from Hydrogen and Oxygen without a replicator? I believe turning the two elements into water is an exothermic reaction.

[Darth Wong]

Couldn't oyu make water from Hydrogen and Oxygen without a replicator? I believe turning the two elements into water is an exothermic reaction.

Take a cloud of hydrogen gas in air and light a match. Presto, water vapour.

PS. Don't try this at home.

[Ender]

Couldn't oyu make water from Hydrogen and Oxygen without a replicator? I believe turning the two elements into water is an exothermic reaction.

Take a cloud of hydrogen gas in air and light a match. Presto, water vapour.

PS. Don't try this at home.

I had a teacher that used to do that in class. He had an old metal file cabinet (as in 50's style "will survive the apocolypse" type) set up outside and he'd take a styrofoam cup, hold it upside down over a car battery, collect the hydrogen, and set it on top of the the cabinet. The he would take a torch and...

[The Yosemite Bear]

Got to love the Orion Syndicates for something....

[Anarchist Bunny]

Someone used a pic I made, I'm honored! I believe that one was for when John Clark was banned.

[Imperial Officer Miller]

the Federation quit using money, because mainly money caused war.. in their eyes the economic struggle was keeping them back from advancing their selves..

[Darth Wong]

Yes, we've seen from the Soviet Union and China that removing capital from the economy makes advancement proceed so much faster ...

[Darth Servo]

What I want to know is, if they don't use money anymore like they claim, then what are they playing for in all those poker games throughout TNG?