A 'Warsie' Defends Star Trek?

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2002-12-28 10:40am

When I read rants about Voyager, it seems to that there's a mob mentality to all the bitching. "Yeah, you're right dood! Voyager sucked ass! Fucking Lameway should be shot!" I'm willing to bet fully 70% of these "Yeah, me too!" replies come from people who have never watched Voyager, for fear of being a sci-fi outcast, or something.

I loved Voyager. It was the closest Trek series ever to TOS. It had a VERY strong captain in Janeway. Sure, she made a few stupid decisions, starting with the destruction of the Caretaker Array, but she showed more balls than hand-wringing Picard EVER did. She was more diplomatic and in control than Captain "Al Sharpton" Sisko.

I've seen many complaints, such as, "She should have brought her crew home with the Caretaker. FUCK the Ocampa!" And, "Lameway stopped at every fucking gas cloud she came across instead of getting her crew home!" As Kirk would say, "WHAT'S the misssion of that ship?" To EXPLORE, to SEEK OUT new civilizations, to BOLDLY GO where no MAN (Fuck you PC twats) has gone before." Kirk would often his ship and the very lives of his crew to defend alien civilization from the Klingons, or whoever.

Janeway was in the fucking Delta Quadrant! Farther than ANY Starfleet vessel has been or even would be for a generation! Trekkies should be calling for her hide if she DIDN'T explore it on the way home.

Voyager's best episodes easily stood up to the best of ANY TNG or DS9 episode. I've watched all incantations of Trek. I can name numerous excellent Voyager episodes: "Distant Origin", "Latent Image", "Living Witness", "Scorpion, "Year of Hell", "Tuvix", "Deadlock", "Meld", "Non Sequitur", "Eye of the Needle", etc.

I really didn't care all that much for TNG and its PC bullshit. I was bored to fucking tears with DS9, unless it involved the Klingons or had Miles O'Brien as the main character. I thought Voyager had much more adsventure, fun, action, and character development than any of the other two. Try watching an episode or three before you join the chorus.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2002-12-28 10:51am

For me, the worse in Voyager was the Treknobabble, and the big red reset button. But the Treknobabble tops it all, I just couldn't watch it long enough, without plugging my ears against so much sound polution.

I've only gone through until the Dreadnaught episode, the station where it was showing canceled it before it got any further, as it canceled DS9 after a couple of episodes.

Where was the character development?

Rightous Fist Of Heaven · Post by **Rightous Fist Of Heaven** » 2002-12-28 12:28pm

I second that Poe, i too liked most parts of Voyager, but the mindless technobabble really made some episodes a pain to watch.

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2002-12-28 01:13pm

I'll both agree and disagree. Voyager had some very strong episodes and some very excellent villians, possibly the best since TOS. The problem was how the show dealt with situations AFTER those strong shows and AFTER they introduced new villans. I grew rather annoyed that Voyager seemed incapable of having more than 2 or 3 strong episodes together or, for that matter, to even have half its episodes as strong ones. I liekd DS9 with the Dominion War arc, it was nitty and gritty with a lot of good characters and some strong storylines with occasional weaknesses. Voyager was like riding a roller coaster: up and down. Sure that can be fun in real life but this was TV and the cycle of good episodes and dissapoining ones filled with nothing but treknobabble and the infamous reset button just grew tiresome.

Cpt_Frank · Post by **Cpt_Frank** » 2002-12-28 01:44pm

and the infamous reset button just grew tiresome.

I found this lack of continuity truly annonying.
And most of the characters were either bad copies or mixes of old ST characters (Tuvok/Harry Kim) or just really boring and annoying (7of9, Neelix).

I generally disliked the show, but it was still far better than boobyprise.
Just my personal oppinion.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2002-12-28 01:53pm

Finally, someone else that likes Voyager!

*Cries tears of joy*

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2002-12-28 02:32pm

I tried to watch Voyager but like every series of Trek since the originals it didn't hook me enough to make me go out of my way to watch it. The episode with the Borg Queen was quite good though.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-12-28 02:40pm

I tried to like Voyager, I was brought up on TOS and TNG but serriously it was so fucking crap. The only character i liked in it was Chakote and thats coz i like the Native American Culture, we shoulda seen more of that.

The stories were lame, contaunity was dubious at best, and the characters were either annoying or raving psycotics. Examples are Janeway Pacifist one moment War Monger the next, Tom Paris Assholes who cares little to responsible officer the next.

"Hey we're on the other side of the galaxy and we need to get home. But on the way lets look at every fecking anomoly within 1000 light years of our position,"

As someone brought up, i forget who, use the Cartakers equipment to get home and if it means so much to them leave a time delayed bomb to do the job. I remember thinking that as soon as the Caretaker pilot was finished.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2002-12-28 03:14pm

I personally like Voyager as well. If it's on, I'll usually watch it, especially if it has the Borg on(maybe I should be called a Borgie instead of a Trekkie LOL). Never know when I get some more useful tactical information to use in debates.

The same goes with Deep Space Nine, I don't mind watching it either, especially when there's plenty of shooting going on.

Alas, there's too many here who seem to think others who like shows they hate (assuming they've even watched them to justify their dislike) must be morons or have bad taste.

Heck, alot of people I talk to don't even know the difference between Star Trek and Star Wars. Sure, they've heard of "The Force" and "Beam me up Scotty", but "didn't Kirk or Pickard destroy the Death Store or something?"

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2002-12-28 03:31pm

Voyager had some highs and then it had those trecherous lows. Some of the episode were Enterprise quality crap. Harry Kim was an Ensign for 5 fucking years, an he saves the ship every month or so. That was just shit.

But I want to *thwap* those who talk shit about Janeway going out of her way to exsplore. They were 75 years away from the alpha quadrant. Most likely they were going to die on that ship. It was a ship full of exsplorers. Just going in a basicly straight line and not doing anything and there would have been a mutany in 5 months. She did that so the people could do work, stay busy and not just sit around and think about how they were going to die without seeing anyone they cared about.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-28 04:05pm

Voyager had some strong episodes, but overall, it was shit. The character developement was pretty good, but I just got sick and tired of the endless technobabble drivel and the stupid science. Geothermal energy in an inert asteroid? That was the last straw.

I also got pissed at the pussification of the Borg, a villain with real potential. Back in TNG, a Borg ship scared the shit out of the Federation. You kept hitting it; it kept coming. The Borg were the ultimate no-bullshit villain. They never gloated or tortured to hero for long hours. They killed. Then we got the Borg Queen, and it all went to Hell. It used to take creativity to destroy a Borg Cube. Voyager just fucking ruined it. The only really dangerous villains on that show were Janeway's idiotic decisions and her cavalier attitude toward risking the lives of her crew over self-righteous moral platitudes.

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2002-12-28 04:23pm

Durandal wrote:Voyager had some strong episodes, but overall, it was shit. The character developement was pretty good, but I just got sick and tired of the endless technobabble drivel and the stupid science. Geothermal energy in an inert asteroid? That was the last straw.

Honestly, I don't see the why this is such a problem when we handily accept "faster than light" travel, despite it being considered impossible by our current science. Energy shields, phasers, and many other things are apparently equally impossible. All we can do is measure and compare things, like hyperdrive and warp. It doesn't matter if they don't make sense or are impossible.

I also got pissed at the pussification of the Borg, a villain with real potential. Back in TNG, a Borg ship scared the shit out of the Federation.

Actually, I think one still did in First Contact.

And that was a battle hardened, combat experienced, weaponry improved, increased fleet size Federation.

You kept hitting it; it kept coming.

I'd argue the same thing happened in First Contact. They could only destroy it with the help of Picard who knew exactly where to hit it, and he only knew because of a residual connection to the Borg mind.

The Borg were the ultimate no-bullshit villain.

From my perspective, that hasn't changed.

They never gloated or tortured to hero for long hours.

When have the done this?

They killed.

Still do...though I wouldn't argue that being a good thing.

Then we got the Borg Queen, and it all went to Hell.

The Borg Queen appears to just be an extension of the Borg Vinculum, a device that "brings order to chaos". A artificial intelligence directing and controlling the drones if you will.

It used to take creativity to destroy a Borg Cube. Voyager just fucking ruined it.

Voyager never destroyed a Borg cube. The Borg repeatedly held their punches against Voyager because the Borg were following a directive to leave Voyager alone (ref "Dark Frontier", "Endgame").

The only really dangerous villains on that show were Janeway's idiotic decisions and her cavalier attitude toward risking the lives of her crew over self-righteous moral platitudes.

LOL

Hope you don't mind my response Durandal...being the die-hard Borg fan I am, I felt the need to rise to their defence.

Warspite · Post by **Warspite** » 2002-12-28 04:34pm

Robert Walper wrote:
Durandal wrote:Voyager had some strong episodes, but overall, it was shit. The character developement was pretty good, but I just got sick and tired of the endless technobabble drivel and the stupid science. Geothermal energy in an inert asteroid? That was the last straw.
Honestly, I don't see the why this is such a problem when we handily accept "faster than light" travel, despite it being considered impossible by our current science. Energy shields, phasers, and many other things are apparently equally impossible. All we can do is measure and compare things, like hyperdrive and warp. It doesn't matter if they don't make sense or are impossible.

Geothermal energy requires heat, or a heated core to produce energy, if the asteroid is dead (inert), then it's dead and there's no thermal energy, it's just stupid treknobabble! (Does anyone know's about active asteroids? I tought they were all inert... too small, you know...)

Robert Walper · Post by **Robert Walper** » 2002-12-28 04:42pm

Geothermal energy requires heat, or a heated core to produce energy, if the asteroid is dead (inert), then it's dead and there's no thermal energy, it's just stupid treknobabble!

Was the asteroid stated as dead or inert? This would seem to be a logical point to start from when analysing our own universe. However, we are analysing a fictional reality limited only by the imagination of man. Therefore, we can theorize an asteroid is dead or inert, but only if evidence doesn't suggest otherwise. If some does, we must create alternate explanations(ie: the asteroid is not inert, so can we create a theory to possibly explain why?).

(Does anyone know's about active asteroids? I tought they were all inert... too small, you know...)

I would think so, but I'm not certain.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2002-12-28 05:00pm

Voyager somehow just grated on my nerves, maybe it was Janeway's voice, maybe it was the tech of the week stuff, but it quickly became annoying and lifeless for me to watch. I've seen most of the episodes but the ones I can remember I can count on one hand. It was a good idea and all, but I think the excecution was seriously messed up. Every episode I saw fit into alien of the week, tech breakdown of the week, or spatial anomoly of the week, and they cycled them as needed it seems. It's almost like they were using one of those plug-in the words websites to write the plots.

It came down to just turning my brain off and watching the space battles, that was about the only way I could enjoy it. For the record, Picard's moral preachings among other things turned me off from TNG, and I watched DS-9 for Odo/Garak/Quark scenes and spacebattles more than anything else. TOS I can watch most episodes and get a laugh out of them at the very least, I like'em more than the new stuff.

Darth Garden Gnome · Post by **Darth Garden Gnome** » 2002-12-28 05:08pm

Voyager had it brilliant moments. I liked most of their dealings with the Borg, and some homages to Trek eras long past. I can say that I've only watched a season or two of Voayger myself however.

The technobabble to solve every situation bothered me. There was no creativness, nothing that we could understand to make Janeways plots seem inventive. Also the all powerful reset button made things far worse. An episode would go by, and the next one would appear, not a single one having anything to do with the other. No consequences for any of there actions other than being X number of years closer to home because of some stolen alien tech or whatever.

Obviously they had to keep the crew busy with all those gas clouds and what not, even if some of those adventures could be snore inducing.

Over all I can't say I ever enjoyed Voyager. I loved TOS, liked most of TNG, but I despise most new Trek. DS9 was ok, I guess, still not a big fan. But as far as Voy and Ent:*flushes toliet.*

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2002-12-28 08:36pm

Robert Walper wrote: Honestly, I don't see the why this is such a problem when we handily accept "faster than light" travel, despite it being considered impossible by our current science. Energy shields, phasers, and many other things are apparently equally impossible. All we can do is measure and compare things, like hyperdrive and warp. It doesn't matter if they don't make sense or are impossible.

That isn't the problem. The problem is when they deliberately use sciencey-sounding terms to try and grant themselves validity. It's pseudoscience, and I have a very low tolerance for it. This phase and frequency bullshit began with TNG, and Voyager carried it to an extreme. I can accept some character onscreen saying, "Go to warp," and then the ship is traveling faster than light, but when they try to explain it, it gets grating, because the writers are inevitably fucking morons. TNG's problem was that it based many episodes' entire plots on technobabble nonsense, such as the infamous "The Next Phase," where Geordi and Ro could still breath air, be influenced by gravity and interact with light, yet no one could see them because they were "out of phase" or some ignorant bullshit like that. Or how about "Starship Mine," with the "baryon sweep" that got rid of those pesky baryons on the Enterprise's hull? Or how about the latest example, in Nemesis, where some mystical form of radiation affects organic matter on the subatomic level, even though organic matter is indistinguishable from regular matter on the subatomic level? How about "subatomic bacteria"? The list goes on and on. These are all problems that could have been easily averted by either hiring a competent consultant and listening to him, or by doing a few measely hours of research on Google.

Actually, I think one still did in First Contact. icon_smile.gif And that was a battle hardened, combat experienced, weaponry improved, increased fleet size Federation.

"Fire all weapons at this spot." Yay! We win! Hardly an insurmountable enemy, in my view.

I'd argue the same thing happened in First Contact. They could only destroy it with the help of Picard who knew exactly where to hit it, and he only knew because of a residual connection to the Borg mind.

I tend to agree. First Contact did a good job of making the Borg terrifying and everything. Voyager pussified them.

From my perspective, that hasn't changed.

The Queen changed it. She has emotion and dallies around.

When have the done this?

They haven't. That's what I said.

The Borg Queen appears to just be an extension of the Borg Vinculum, a device that "brings order to chaos". A artificial intelligence directing and controlling the drones if you will.

The Borg Queen completely takes away from the perception of the Borg as a giant, self-directed hive with a single purpose. She personifies the Borg, which is a bad thing. Granted, I thought her performance in First Contact was excellent, but it was still a bad thing for the Borg.

Voyager never destroyed a Borg cube. The Borg repeatedly held their punches against Voyager because the Borg were following a directive to leave Voyager alone (ref "Dark Frontier", "Endgame").

In "Endgame," they used more technobabble bullshit to destroy a Cube. But Voyager repeatedly escaped the Borg, and their methods weren't even that creative. It made the Borg look weak.

Hope you don't mind my response Durandal...being the die-hard Borg fan I am, I felt the need to rise to their defence. icon_smile.gif

This is just mainly subjective opinion we're talking about. All we're doing is saying why we feel the way we feel.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2002-12-28 08:44pm

It's handy that Wayne likes Voyager because that means he knows it, so he can refute rabid Trekkie bullshit claims involving it. However, it is hardly a mob mentality that makes people dislike Voyager. I've seen a few Voyager episodes, and every one of them was shit. Janeway is shit. Their refusal to respect continuity is shit. Their technobabble was easily twice as bad as anything we ever saw in TNG, and that's really saying something.

At least in TNG, when they used technobabble it sort of made sense to the fans. Non-fans were bewildered and lost patience (it was the start of Trek's marginalization of itself), but at least you could decipher it once you were immersed in Trek-speak. Voyager technobabble, on the other hand, is completely random; they might as well be speaking swahili and sacrificing live chickens to the Warp God.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2002-12-28 09:12pm

Isn't it just a fact that Trek has been getting progressively worse over the years, its just happened in smaller and smaller increments until it finally culminated in Enterprise? I mean, there can always be exceptions. and there might have been a few good elements to Voyager, but by and large it was still shit?

FaxModem1 · Post by **FaxModem1** » 2002-12-28 10:05pm

Voyager was alright, they had really good episodes, and really crappy episodes.

Their best, to me were "Year of Hell""The Killing Game"and "Dark Frontier", and the odd thing is, they were all two parters.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-28 10:40pm

The problem with Voyager was it had too many technobabble based episodes and too few good characters.

Technobabble wasn't that common in DS9 (especially not once the wars started kicking of around the 4th season) sure they had it every so often but it was in passing "the blah blah blah field was what caused the time warp now lets move on to the story" but Voyager had episodes were there was a technobabble problem, people looking worried, a possible technobabble solution, solution implemented (now with added technobabble) and finally the wrap up (with technobabble squeezed in).

TNG's technobabble sometimes was the focus of an episodes but most of the time it was just there so they could have weird stuff happen and have the characters react to it, which brings me to my second point.

Voyagers characters - There was probably 1 good one (the Doctor) and 2 others that had some interest (Seven and Neelix (don't judge me - in the later seasons he actually became interesting)) the rest were wither dull (Torres, Tuvok) irrational (Janeway) or simply not there (seriously after Seven came on board did someone kidnap Kim and Chaokatay and replace them with limited lifespan Robots? not that I cared since both characters were also dull).

Tuvok was just so mind numbingly Vulcan, where did they get the idea that a character with no emotions would be interesting? the things that mind Spock interesting was when he would make that sly stab at McCoy or express concern for Jim but Tuvok tries to be (and actually is) a stone wall, he had a total of three good episodes in the entire show (Flashback but mainly join to the fact Sulu was there, Rise where mainly the Neelix interaction saves him and the episode Neelix leaves and Tuvok does the little dance) everything else was just... bad.

Janeways constant mothering of everyone who would let her also bothered the hell out me because frankly I did not care, Picard gave Data advice etc but Janeway went round to tuck Kes,Harry and Seven in at night.

I could comlain about the other characters but I feel no particular need to expound on the point for the next three weeks.

On the continuity issue I think alot of people give Voyager far too little credit, Voyager had far more reappearing villians and story arcs than TNG (which had about two) they had the Borg, the Hirogen, the Kazon, the Vidians, the Malon and maybe a few others - that was good stuff because you actually got the sense that they weren't jumping from one end of the galaxy to the other all the time (the Enterprise goes from Earth to the Klingon empire to Vulcan to the farthest reaches of unknown space very often without extra warp aid).
This area also has its downfalls mainly in the trademark reset button - Voyager had so many one shot techs that were simply lost its beyond human understanding they even had a super canon of some sort installed that they never used, no explanation just gone.

They also did the Borg over good and proper let me put this in context for you.
I can remember seeing an episode of Voyager were they find people hiding underground after an enemy attacked them decades ago and at the very end of the episode we are taken over to a bush and behind the bush we find the remains of a drone, I can remember thinking "woah the Borg Voyager's in it now".
For the next few episodes Voyager encounters the Borg indirectly (former drones etc) and its all good build up because you know if Voyager comes up against a proper Borg ship its smoked and then Voyager meets the4 Borg and escapes, just about and then again and again and again at which point you begin to wonder why the Borg are so feared (they can't actually adapt to what they can't assimilate???? WTH?).

Now someone mentioned the two parters, they were using very good and actually boosted the show to new heights but after that you get 3 straight episodes of insert deflector modification 4 into weird coloured stuff c and then talk about it for 42 minutes.

Overall I would say the show had some gems in it but the poor character work and too often visted technobabble well ruined it, which is a shame because the min arcs are wants needed more of with trek this can be seen with enterprise which spends most episodes being bland to the extreme but the episodes involving the Vulcans and Andorians usually rate as do the occasional Earth and Vulcan ones, the main arc with the temporal cold war however just doesn't seem that good.

Just some insane ranting but I wanted to see if I could outword others in the thread

.

Vertigo1 · Post by **Vertigo1** » 2002-12-28 10:45pm

I've watched every single episode of Voyager so I can honestly say that overall I didn't care for it at all. To be fair, it did have its share of good episodes. Namely "Scorpion", "Year of Hell" (I really wish they had stretched that out for a few episodes), and that one where the doc gets taken over by that torpedo. That last one by far is Voyager's best episode. It finally gave Robert Picardo a chance to show that he has actual talent instead of being limited by B&B's bullshit writing "skills". That man was Voyager's saving grace. He was the ONLY reason I even bothered to watch. The way he came off with those smartass remarks every now and then is what made me identify with his character. (Mainly because I'm a certified smartass. Don't believe me? Ask Connor.) However, its few good episodes were overshadowed by its usual shitty eps. *cough* Virtuoso *cough* As much as I like Robert, I couldn't stomach that episode. That almost kept me from watching the rest of the series in its entirity.

That being said, Voyager is light-years ahead of Boobyprise in sheer quality alone.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2002-12-28 11:24pm

A few observations:

Lord Poe wrote:I loved Voyager. It was the closest Trek series ever to TOS. It had a VERY strong captain in Janeway. Sure, she made a few stupid decisions, starting with the destruction of the Caretaker Array, but she showed more balls than hand-wringing Picard EVER did. She was more diplomatic and in control than Captain "Al Sharpton" Sisko.

Having "balls" isn't the problem. It's balls combined with intelligence which is the real trick. Katheryn Janeway, in every situation where a decision had to be made, invariably managed to make exactly the wrong choice, even when her choices were clearly defined. "Sure, she made a few stupid decisions" is a terrible understatement of the consummate idiocy of a captain who doesn't even conceive of wiring in a timed device to destroy the Caretaker Array to allow her ship and crew to escape while an active portal back to the Alpha Quadrant was available. Or a captain who walks her ship and crew into a very obvious trap simply to satisfy the emotional whims of one officer. Or one who offers to allow as many of the crew to settle on an Earthlike planet as choose to do so (and thus potentially depriving her ship of a minimum critical number of key operating personnel if they choose to leave).

Examine for a second the one incident which really should have sparked a mutiny; when she allows two fool Ferengi to actually talk her into releasing them from her custody after capturing them, then fools with trying to recapture their shuttlecraft and wasting valuable time better spent in actually sending her ship through the Barzan Wormhole, which then connected the Delta and Alpha Quadrants once again. That is not the mark of a captain with either balls or brains. Because how believable is it that any captain would have been dumb enough to waste so much time and ultimately an opportunity for quick passage home trying to recapture two fugitives she never should have been dumb enough to be talked into releasing in the first place?

I've seen many complaints, such as, "She should have brought her crew home with the Caretaker. FUCK the Ocampa!" And, "Lameway stopped at every fucking gas cloud she came across instead of getting her crew home!" As Kirk would say, "WHAT'S the misssion of that ship?" To EXPLORE, to SEEK OUT new civilizations, to BOLDLY GO where no MAN (Fuck you PC twats) has gone before." Kirk would often his ship and the very lives of his crew to defend alien civilization from the Klingons, or whoever.

That rationale simply does not obtain. If the series had actually stuck to its premise, a ship with limited resources and a divided crew, facing a seventy-year journey back to home space, could devote no more time or energy to conducting any sort of survey beyond what could be managed in passing. You have a totally isolated ship seperated from all hope of repair and resupply at friendly bases in unknown, possibly hostile territory. Survival imperatives dictate that said ship and crew make as quick a passage as possible while making as minimal a presence of themselves to the natives as possible. Stopping to explore or intervene in any civilisation's problems violates these imperatives in toto, and wastes resources the ship doesn't have to spare. Under those conditions, the only valid mission is to return to homespace. Only exploration and investigation which advances that aim has any validity.

As for Kirk "offering his ship to defend alien civilisations from the Klingons or whomever", I'm afraid that never happened. Kirk never intervened willy-nilly in any war or invasion but in every case was driven by pragmatism. At Organia, for example, Kirk did not "offer up ship and crew" to defend Organia from a Klingon invasion force; he instead ordered Sulu to take the Enterprise out of the system and bring back reinforcements.

That sort of rational judgement, by contrast, always seemed utterly alien to the thought processes of Katneryn Janeway.

Janeway was in the fucking Delta Quadrant! Farther than ANY Starfleet vessel has been or even would be for a generation! Trekkies should be calling for her hide if she DIDN'T explore it on the way home.

See above commentary. In a situation where you have limited resources and energy reserves, no mission not connected with the imperative to reach home in the shortest possible time has any logical validity. But then, the series scrapped any pretense at logic the moment they started showing the holodecks running 24/7.

Voyager's best episodes easily stood up to the best of ANY TNG or DS9 episode. I've watched all incantations of Trek. I can name numerous excellent Voyager episodes: "Distant Origin", "Latent Image", "Living Witness", "Scorpion, "Year of Hell", "Tuvix", "Deadlock", "Meld", "Non Sequitur", "Eye of the Needle", etc.

Matter of opinion.

Try watching an episode or three before you join the chorus.

My perspective is that of a viewer who suffered through four and a half years watching that pathetic excuse for a SF show, desperately trying to give it every chance for it to finally "find its legs", until ultimately throwing his hands up in disgust. I gave Voyager its chance and then some, and it failed to deliver. Watching four and a half years of sustained stupidity didn't inspire me to stick around for the final two and a half, though I would catch the "key" episodes if they piqued my curiosity. It also gives me, in my view, every justification to piss on its cold, mouldering grave for wasting my time and contributing to the general dumbing-down not only of science fiction as a genré but also the general culture as well.

Joe Momma · Post by **Joe Momma** » 2002-12-29 12:40am

Darth Wong wrote:Voyager technobabble, on the other hand, is completely random; they might as well be speaking swahili and sacrificing live chickens to the Warp God.

Shit, I'd have kept watching regularly if they'd been doing things like that just to watch the crew descend into madness due to emotional trauma from being cut off from everything they know and love. Throw in some Lovecraftian cosmic insanity to round things out and you're set:

Janeway: "Get us out of here, maximum warp!"
Paris: "Iaai, Shub-Niggurath!"
Two red-shirts' heads explode and Chakotay's tattoo starts to slide around on his skin as the Voyager temporarily turns inside out and then teleports 10 light-years away.

(Hey, if you can be turned into a fucking iquana by going too fast, anything is possible.)

I remember JMS saying that before Voyage started airing he thought it was in the position to blow the doors off of TV sci-fi and I think he was right. Two enemy crews forced to work together to survive in unknown lands while exploring hitherto unknown worlds? There's easily seven years worth of potential there and like a poor marksman Voyager missed almost all of it.

The bottom line is, I think Voyager sucks the big one because I watched regulary for the first two and a half years and off-and-on for another two and Voyager seldom failed to disappoint.

-- Joe Momma

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-29 01:14am

I think Voyager coulda been really good if they had done this in the first episode-

blown up the bridge. Killed every bridge officer straight out. The ship is now permanently damaged for 7 seasons worth of adventure- with the bridge just a burned out husk.

The ship is now commanded by people who don't know what they're doing, comparatively speaking.

That'd be potential for a cool show IMO.

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

A 'Warsie' Defends Star Trek?

A 'Warsie' Defends Star Trek?

Re: A 'Warsie' Defends Star Trek?