The Universal Translator vs. Many Cultures, Many Languages

Kotooshu · Post by **Kotooshu** » 2006-07-17 05:36am

I believe the Universal Translator to be the single greatest pile of crock in the entire StarTrek universe.

StarWars is so much more believable in this regard, even though the various "accents" of basic in the Phantom Menace that paralleled contemporary cultures was a bit much. But beautiful languages such as Ithorian and interesting ones such as Twilek and Rodian should be a basic tenet in a universe with so many races.

Back to StarTrek, let's forget for a moment the unbelievable BS that is the UT on a technological level. Let's say that it is possible...

This said, the glaring inconsistancy is that everybody in the ST universe should still be able to hear the alien language, while the UT translates it for them... They shouldn't be hearing the Alien speaking in their own voice, but a translation coming from their communicators in Magel Roddenberry's voice.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2006-07-17 05:42am

I think the guest actors would be quite angered by the fact that most of their voices are dubed by the boss's wife. In TOS, it was just cheaper to let the actors do what they were paid to do and speak.

Teh computers could be compenstating for the differences in language and still be able to allow for individual voices to make it though. Computers in ST are far more powerful then you give them credit.

And I do prefer the multilingualism of the SW universe over the instant translation from ST.

Kotooshu · Post by **Kotooshu** » 2006-07-17 05:47am

The point is, however, that the listener should be hearing 2 streams of language: The original accoustic stuff coming out of the alien's mouth AND the delayed translation that the computer gives.

That said, the delay should be very delayed, like after the end of the sentance. Take for instance Japanese, where the VERB always comes at the end of the sentance. You therefore cannot begin to translate a Japanese sentance into english before you complete the whole sentance, because you have to wait for the verb, which comes much earlier in the english sentance.

Covenant · Post by **Covenant** » 2006-07-17 05:51am

Star Trek makes a number of odd choices just for expediency, and this is one of 'em. Even alone on a dirtball out in space where there's no functioning computers, let alone universal translators (unless they're in each person's ear--are they? Like babelfish?), Humans and Jem'hadar and Cardassians and Bajorans can all understand each other.

In a starship setting, subtitles might be more appropriate. I'd get to hear all the clicks and burbles of their speech and then get a translated text at the bottom. Bonus points for Orz-like translation bugs.

They should also be unable to understand a race for the first time due to the fact they have no basis for the language. I think language is, by and large, taken for granted. What about a species that talked in sub-human vocal tones? or flashes of light? There's a lot left for Sci-Fi to do in terms of idea conveyance technologies.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2006-07-17 05:52am

Kotooshu wrote:The point is, however, that the listener should be hearing 2 streams of language: The original accoustic stuff coming out of the alien's mouth AND the delayed translation that the computer gives.

That said, the delay should be very delayed, like after the end of the sentance. Take for instance Japanese, where the VERB always comes at the end of the sentance. You therefore cannot begin to translate a Japanese sentance into english before you complete the whole sentance, because you have to wait for the verb, which comes much earlier in the english sentance.

It is probably just a mistake that was never corrected, but there are case in ST where the resonse was delayed due to the transmission. ANd the computer could be cutting out the original transmission so that there is no backwash.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-07-17 05:53am

Like Vasudans in FS2! You can always hear the Vasudan gobledegook behind the Dr Sbaitso synth translation. It's cool.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-07-17 05:55am

Yes..."duh". Congratulations, you've just bumped into the limits of TV SF. Laboured, delayed translation may work in a movie, or if it's doen rarely, but in a TV series it would get very old and very dull very fast. Unless you prefer to spend half the episode waiting for a translation.

Star Wars "did it better" (how exactly ? It's not like we haven't heard alien langauges in ST and pretty much everyone in SW speaks English...) because it was a *movie*. Simple as that. It could afford to show the aliens speaking their own langauge because it didn't have to revisit these aliens week after week.

This said, the glaring inconsistancy is that everybody in the ST universe should still be able to hear the alien language, while the UT translates it for them...

And that would lead to a confusing mess of a scene with four voices whining through eachother. The UT may not be an elegant solution, but it's one that works, end of story.

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-07-17 05:58am

That said, the delay should be very delayed, like after the end of the sentance. Take for instance Japanese, where the VERB always comes at the end of the sentance. You therefore cannot begin to translate a Japanese sentance into english before you complete the whole sentance, because you have to wait for the verb, which comes much earlier in the english sentance.

Canon explanation of UT operations:

There are certain universal ideas and concepts
common to all intelligent life.
This device instantaneously compares the frequency of brain-wave patterns,
selects those ideas and concepts it recognizes,
and then provides the necessary grammar.
Then it translates its findings into English.
You mean it speaks?
With a voice or the approximation
of whatever the creature is on the sending end.
Not 100% efficient, but nothing ever is.

It doesn't translate what is being said, but what is being thought as the creature/person speaks.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2006-07-17 05:59am

They could just come right out and say that they're using psychic transmission. It's not like psychic shit is rare or unknown in Star Trek.

Kotooshu · Post by **Kotooshu** » 2006-07-17 06:16am

I should have been more specific...

By the "2 streams" and the "Delayed translation", I was talking about a human and alien speaking to each other face to face, not through a communicator. That's where it is hard to suspend one's disbelief.

As for the whole brain wave thing, that's a really far-fetched explanation on StarTrek's part (I understand that you're quoting from the source). How many of us say exactly what we are thinking all the time?

bilateralrope · Post by **bilateralrope** » 2006-07-17 07:00am

Bounty wrote:Star Wars "did it better" (how exactly ? It's not like we haven't heard alien langauges in ST and pretty much everyone in SW speaks English...) because it was a *movie*. Simple as that. It could afford to show the aliens speaking their own langauge because it didn't have to revisit these aliens week after week.

Star Wars was a setting where the various races had been in close contact for ages, so using a common language makes sense except for races that are unable to actually speak it. A common language would not work with Star Trek due to the number of times they meet a species that hasn't had any contact with humans before.

Kotooshu wrote:As for the whole brain wave thing, that's a really far-fetched explanation on StarTrek's part (I understand that you're quoting from the source). How many of us say exactly what we are thinking all the time?

I feel its also far-fetched, but that Star Trek had to chose between ignoring the language issue, handwaving it away, or having to deal with working out the aliens language on every episode where they meet a species they haven't met before, and since TOS used translation handwaving TNG, DS9 and VOY were also stuck with having to use it.

Though with the handwaving method, the less detail you give the better it looks.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-07-17 07:03am

Kotooshu wrote: How many of us say exactly what we are thinking all the time?

Everybody. Whatever else you may be thinking on top of that, you WILL be thinking exactly what you're saying. The question is how does the UT determine which parts of your thought process are related to speech and which aren't.

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2006-07-17 08:11am

If the UT can do that...and at distances long enough it can be used on incoming transmissions...how can there ever be real treachery since computers can literally read minds at light years distance?

Kotooshu · Post by **Kotooshu** » 2006-07-17 08:15am

Damn good point, Keevan_Colton, it puts the whole "With the Romulans, it's always a game of chess" thing in a different light.

Commander Tomolok: "It's your move, Peecard."

Picard: (moves Knight to QB3) "Eat shit, Tomolok, I know what you're thinking."

Bounty · Post by **Bounty** » 2006-07-17 09:41am

Keevan_Colton wrote:If the UT can do that...and at distances long enough it can be used on incoming transmissions...how can there ever be real treachery since computers can literally read minds at light years distance?

Hence why they shouldn't have added the psychic component in Metamorphosis. But it's there now.

I really don't see a reasonable explanation for the UT working in long-distance communications; but it does, somehow. As for treachery, I suppose you can handwave it away by saying the UT can only "read" the electric activity in those parts of the brain related to speech or something...

Keevan_Colton · Post by **Keevan_Colton** » 2006-07-17 09:43am

Still, if it can read at a distance any conspiracy that involves folk within several light years ought to be detectable...plus there's written translation that it apparently does too...

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-07-18 01:20am

The notion that the UT actually reads brainwaves comes from the same piece of dumbshit dialogue which stated that all living organisms understand the concept of male and female gender because it is universal (yes, Kirk said that, in Metamorphosis).

Kotooshu · Post by **Kotooshu** » 2006-07-18 06:33am

Interesting parallel, gender and language.

Languages like English and Chinese do not assign gender to nouns, French and Spanish have male and female nouns, while German and Czech have male, female and neutral nouns...

If languages influences the way we think, and different cultures developed different gender associations for different things, then the concept of gender is indeed NOT universal.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2006-07-18 11:03am

Kotooshu wrote:Interesting parallel, gender and language.

Languages like English and Chinese do not assign gender to nouns, French and Spanish have male and female nouns, while German and Czech have male, female and neutral nouns...

If languages influences the way we think, and different cultures developed different gender associations for different things, then the concept of gender is indeed NOT universal.

Particularly in light of the events of Metamorphosis, where they were dealing with an "energy being" rather than a normal organic life form. Even normal organic life forms can reproduce asexually, depending on the species.

Ted C · Post by **Ted C** » 2006-07-18 12:58pm

Gender in language isn't quite as simple as that, though. In Latin-derived languages, there usually are two genders, and even inanimate objects have gender. It generally just indicates what articles you use with them in speech.

Languages that develop in relatively isolated environments tend to develop increasing complication. There are obscure languages spoken only in isolated communities that have as many as fourteen genders, if I recall my NPR reports correctly.

OmegaGuy · Post by **OmegaGuy** » 2006-07-18 08:17pm

Covenant wrote:Star Trek makes a number of odd choices just for expediency, and this is one of 'em. Even alone on a dirtball out in space where there's no functioning computers, let alone universal translators (unless they're in each person's ear--are they? Like babelfish?),

As a matter of fact, they are, at least according to Quark in the Area 51 episode (which was spoofed marvelously in Futurama).

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2006-07-18 08:35pm

OmegaGuy wrote:
Covenant wrote:Star Trek makes a number of odd choices just for expediency, and this is one of 'em. Even alone on a dirtball out in space where there's no functioning computers, let alone universal translators (unless they're in each person's ear--are they? Like babelfish?),
As a matter of fact, they are, at least according to Quark in the Area 51 episode (which was spoofed marvelously in Futurama).

You are aware that not everybody in Trek wears that kind of earbug all the time. In fact there's no evidence for anybody wearing that kind of earbug, period (barring Uhura in TOS, and she was the communications officer).

Kotooshu · Post by **Kotooshu** » 2006-07-19 02:59am

Batman wrote:In fact there's no evidence for anybody wearing that kind of earbug, period (barring Uhura in TOS, and she was the communications officer).

Actually, it is a little known and startling fact that Uhura had a persisting viral condition that caused massive ear-wax build-up. Her alleged communications device was actually a 24th century version of the dreaded Ear Candle.

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2006-07-23 01:17am

The thing I don't get is how can you even hear Klingon or Romulan or some other language unless you turn off the UT, yet they show Worf and others saying stuff in their own language and having to translate it. Also, how do you know that Picard is speaking Klingon to you if everything is being translated into Klingon for you from English.

Kotooshu · Post by **Kotooshu** » 2006-07-24 02:53am

...

Now ThaT is a good point, another logical hyper-inconsistancy. So when all those Klingons (or Picard, for that matter) yell "Kaplah", one should actually be hearing the English automatic translation.

Unless...

Unless the UT can somehow mysteriously read your intention to be speaking Klingon on purpose, thereby bypassing the translation. Which only deepens the retardedness of the whole UT concept further.