PM hopes to extricate Canada from UN box

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PM hopes to extricate Canada from UN box

Post by theski »

WASHINGTON -- With yesterday's landmark speech, Paul Martin tacitly acknowledged what Canada's foreign policy establishment has refused to accept for decades: that the United Nations is a failure, for which there is no solution.

The Prime Minister's proposed alternative is a new international body, the G-20 summit of world leaders, representative of North and South, developed and developing, rich and poor: a working group unfettered by the UN's bureaucracy and its anachronistic Security Council.

It is a bold, though perhaps unworkable plan. But however it is ultimately greeted by the world community, Mr. Martin's proposal at least recognizes and sets out to correct a fundamental flaw in Canadian foreign policy, one that has left us hostage to a dysfunctional world body whose interests are often irrelevant to Canada's.

In his address to the Woodrow Wilson Center, Mr. Martin formally proposed an initial meeting of heads of government that would most likely include the G-8 plus Australia and the major developing nations -- such as China, Brazil, India and Indonesia.

The first summit would take on one specific issue, most likely global security in the face of terrorist threats. The goal would be to find a common voice to speak on the larger questions of goals and priorities, and to examine specific measures -- say, implementing anti-terrorism measures at major sea ports in the developing world similar to those under way in Europe and North America.

If the summit worked, it might become a regular gathering, looking at issues of global reach.

The biggest problem with the proposal is that the major nations are already experiencing what is called summit fatigue: Between the G-8, the Commonwealth, the Francophonie and regional organizations such as the European Union and the Organization of American States, a prime minister or president already spends a lot of time in foreign hotels.

Nonetheless, sources report that the Americans have responded favourably, if cautiously, to the Canadian proposal. It will be up to us to see if we can make a G-20 summit work, and we should try hard. For whatever the rest of the world thinks about it, such an organization is very much in Canada's interest as a way of extricating this country from its current foreign-policy cage.

After decades of working closely with our major allies to confront the global threats of fascism and communism, Canada began to drift away, increasingly investing diplomatic capital in the United Nations, even as we undermined our traditional commitments by slashing the defence budget.

As a result, by the 1990s Canada was committed to a policy of multilateralism, addressing the world's conundrums primarily through the United Nations, although other forums such as NATO could be used in a pinch.

The problem with UN-based multilateralism is that it distances Canada from its natural allies, leaving us hostage to an institution over which we have little influence.

Canadians were sharply divided over whether to support the American-led coalition that toppled Saddam Hussein. Jean Chrétien decided Canada would not join without UN approval. Whether the invasion was right or wrong, the result of Mr. Chrétien's decision left Canada hostage to the French veto on the Security Council.

Mr. Martin's proposal is one way the new PM hopes to extricate Canada from this box. A properly functioning G-20 would be every bit as representative of world opinion as the UN, without being hobbled by its ossified bureaucracy. And, unlike the Security Council, Canada would have a permanent seat at the table.

Again, it remains to be seen if the Great Powers are willing to give life to this new creation, which could constrain them in ways the UN -- because it is so ineffectual -- does not.

Nonetheless, the G-20 is a good idea, and Canada should pursue it, for the reason any country should pursue a foreign-policy goal: self-interest.
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Post by Joe »

Maybe the plan isn't workable, but at least he has the right idea.

Canada should have gotten a permanent seat on the UNSC after WWII anyway. Fuck France.
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Post by SirNitram »

Good. Glad to see someone's actually doing something instead of just whining 'The UN sucks!'. Hope it works out.
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Post by Vympel »

India deserves a place on the UNSC more than Canada, I'd say.
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Post by Montcalm »

Vympel wrote:India deserves a place on the UNSC more than Canada, I'd say.
Right a nation ready to start a war with its Pakistani neighbour over Kashmeer(sp)

On topic whatever Paul Martin say might be shoved aside by whoever gets elected Prime Minister this year.
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Post by Joe »

Vympel wrote:India deserves a place on the UNSC more than Canada, I'd say.
Maybe today, but since the UNSC as devised after WWII was pretty much the Allied Victory Parade, Canada had more right to a seat than France.
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Post by Plekhanov »

Montcalm wrote:Right a nation ready to start a war with its Pakistani neighbour over Kashmeer(sp)
Whereas the existing permanent members are notoriously reluctant to start wars...
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Post by The Aliens »

There might be a lot of people upset about not attending though- this will be beneficial for those invited, but other countries still need the United Nations to make their opinions heard.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Joe wrote:
Maybe today, but since the UNSC as devised after WWII was pretty much the Allied Victory Parade, Canada had more right to a seat than France.
How so? French forces launched the first land attack against Germany and fought from the first day to the last against them. They suffered twice the dead just in the Battle of France as Canada did in the whole war. And by 1945 they where fielding more ground troops against the Germans then Canada. Sure they surrendered in 1940, but given the same situation any other western nation would have as well with every available field unit destroyed and most of the country overrun. France was on the front line and suffered very heavily for it.
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Re: PM hopes to extricate Canada from UN box

Post by Plekhanov »

The first summit would take on one specific issue, most likely global security in the face of terrorist threats. The goal would be to find a common voice to speak on the larger questions of goals and priorities, and to examine specific measures -- say, implementing anti-terrorism measures at major sea ports in the developing world similar to those under way in Europe and North America.

If the summit worked, it might become a regular gathering, looking at issues of global reach.
How is an occasional series of summits supposed to replace the UN? The Security Council maybe “anachronistic” but at least it meets frequently and can respond to events quicker than ad hoc (and what I expect would in reality would turn out to be infrequent and irregular) meetings of world leaders.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

Theoretically the Security Council could respond more quickly, yes. Does it? Hell no.
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Post by TheDarkling »

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Joe wrote: How so? French forces launched the first land attack against Germany and fought from the first day to the last against them.
You state yourself they surrendered so the nation of France did not fight from start to finish, they never had a legitimate government in exile like most of the other European states overrun.

With that said I didn't think performance in the war should have been a deciding factor in who got on the UNSC, France was a strong colonial powr and also an important continental one.
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Post by Plekhanov »

Rogue 9 wrote:Theoretically the Security Council could respond more quickly, yes. Does it? Hell no.
Are you suggesting that it's possible to organise a meeting of the worlds 20 most important heads of state and have them come to agreement quicker than the security council?
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Post by Rogue 9 »

No. I'm suggesting that although its possible for the Security Council to come to a decision faster, they're so damn indecisive that they don't.
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Post by Plekhanov »

To the best of my knowledge the SC has 15 members why will the 20 members of G20 be quicker to agree?

The representatives in the SC operate on direct instructions from many of the same governments that will make up G20 why will an extra 5 members at the table make these governments more amenable?
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Post by RogueIce »

Plekhanov wrote:To the best of my knowledge the SC has 15 members why will the 20 members of G20 be quicker to agree?

The representatives in the SC operate on direct instructions from many of the same governments that will make up G20 why will an extra 5 members at the table make these governments more amenable?
I didn't see him saying anywhere this G20 would be any faster than the UNSC. He just said that, in theory the UNSC should be faster, but in reality they're not.
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Post by Stofsk »

Plekhanov wrote:To the best of my knowledge the SC has 15 members why will the 20 members of G20 be quicker to agree?

The representatives in the SC operate on direct instructions from many of the same governments that will make up G20 why will an extra 5 members at the table make these governments more amenable?
Because the Security Council is made up of the Permanent 5 and the other, rotating representatives. Each one of the P5 has a veto, which can completely block any proposal made in the SC. What happens when you're the American representative and China puts up a proposal you don't like? Or vice versa? Veto.

That's why there was this hoopla over Iraq in the SC. France threatened to use it's veto before the vote was even called IIRC. From what I was told during my HS Politics class, during the Cold War little could be done by the SC because of this.

The number of representatives wouldn't speed up the decision-making process, but getting rid of the veto might actually allow some people to do some work for a change.
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Post by Plekhanov »

RogueIce wrote:I didn't see him saying anywhere this G20 would be any faster than the UNSC. He just said that, in theory the UNSC should be faster, but in reality they're not.
Rogue 9’s response to my original post doesn’t really make much sense unless he’s arguing that the UNSC might in theory be quicker than the proposed G20 but that if G20 were ever be introduced it would turn out to be quicker.
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Post by Plekhanov »

Stofsk wrote:That's why there was this hoopla over Iraq in the SC. France threatened to use it's veto before the vote was even called IIRC.
I wasn’t on this board at the time, but do you really want to start yet another discussion on the build up to the war and France’s intention to use it’s veto? I expect there have already been quite a few on here.
From what I was told during my HS Politics class, during the Cold War little could be done by the SC because of this.

The number of representatives wouldn't speed up the decision-making process, but getting rid of the veto might actually allow some people to do some work for a change.
The Veto was introduced for a reason which is that the major powers wouldn’t join a club where they didn’t get one, do you really expect the (not all that multilateral) Whitehouse would join a body with majority voting if it was to be bound by the results?

Even if the president (by which I mean any president in the near future) signed up to such a body can you really see the treaty being ratified by congress?
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Post by Vympel »

Montcalm wrote:
Right a nation ready to start a war with its Pakistani neighbour over Kashmeer(sp)
Since when is a nation's readiness to go to war matter? It's their importance in the geopolitical game.
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Post by Stofsk »

Plekhanov wrote:I wasn't on this board at the time, but do you really want to start yet another discussion on the build up to the war and France's intention to use it's veto? I expect there have already been quite a few on here.
That is not my intention. I was simply referring to what the veto does and it's implications, my chosen example happened to be a recent one and used for convenience.
The Veto was introduced for a reason which is that the major powers wouldn't join a club where they didn't get one, do you really expect the (not all that multilateral) Whitehouse would join a body with majority voting if it was to be bound by the results?
How does this change the fact that voting in the UNSC is a foregone conclusion? Either everyone agrees with the P5 (and they agree with each other) and a resolution gets passed, or one of the P5 throws down a veto and nothing gets done. Why? Because you need a 2/3rds majority (close enough - 9 out of 15) acceptance of a resolution AND concordance between each P5 member for a resolution to pass. Source

With restrictions like that how can anything get done? Especially through a democratic process?
Even if the president (by which I mean any president in the near future) signed up to such a body can you really see the treaty being ratified by congress?
If a country was commited to the such a body? Fuck yes. Otherwise it's credibility suffers in the eyes of the international community. Besides such treaties always depend on good leadership to sell them. Take the veto out and the leader still has to sell it to his country.

Maybe I'm just naive but I can't see how one country, with a permanent seat on the SC and armed with a veto, can possibly assist the democratic decision-making process the UN purportedly claims to uphold.
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Post by Ma Deuce »

Vympel wrote:Since when is a nation's readiness to go to war matter?
I don't think it's readiness they're getting at, but rather willingness. Not that that matters: neither India nor Pakistan will be very willing to go to war over Kashmeir now that both countries have nukes...
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Post by 0.1 »

how unfortunate, people letting little things like mutual assured destruction hold them back from slaughtering each other. Times like this, one wished that Truman never dropped the bomb.

India and Pakistan should be encouraged to go at each other and treat nukes like conventional weapons. After all, what's a few dozen nukes exchanged between different religions and old enemies.
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Post by Rogue 9 »

0.1 wrote:how unfortunate, people letting little things like mutual assured destruction hold them back from slaughtering each other. Times like this, one wished that Truman never dropped the bomb.

India and Pakistan should be encouraged to go at each other and treat nukes like conventional weapons. After all, what's a few dozen nukes exchanged between different religions and old enemies.
You're beginning to sound like AdmiralTDM. What the bloody hell is this?!?
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Post by Sarevok »

India and Pakistan should be encouraged to go at each other and treat nukes like conventional weapons. After all, what's a few dozen nukes exchanged between different religions and old enemies.
An Indo-Pakistan war would result in the deaths of millions of peple. Only a madman would hope for a war between India and Pakistan. The leadership of both countries must be encouraed to peacefully resolve their differences rather than go to war.
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