Spinsanity on Fahrenheit 9/11

N&P: Discuss governments, nations, politics and recent related news here.

Moderators: Alyrium Denryle, Edi, K. A. Pital

User avatar
Jalinth
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1577
Joined: 2004-01-09 05:51pm
Location: The Wet coast of Canada

Post by Jalinth »

Joe wrote:
People like Brendan Nyhan, Richard Cohen and other castrato liberals are pantywaists who who believe the Left should abide by the Marquess of Queensberry Rules while the Right should be free to do as it pleases. As Paul Krugman pointed out, for some reason self-appointed media watchdogs make sure to curry-comb every line of one of Michael Moore's movies in search of undotted "i"s and uncrossed "t"s, rather than the proven outright lies of Bush, his administration and their media camp followers.
Usually there's a new article every week or so picking apart something that Bush or someone in his administration said. You've obviously never read Spinsanity.
Moore does a lot more than leave his "i"s undotted and "t"s uncrossed. His Mis or selectively quoting can severely alter the meaning - this isn't a "cosmetics" issue - quotations must be in context or you are essentially twisting others words into lies. It tends to be a favourite tactic of creationists - another set of truthtellers :x (at least in the world they inhabit).

The right wing has their nutjobs (Coulter being the most blatant). I personally consider myself rightwing (but not American) but Coulter makes marginal sense at the best of times - she is good to make the blood boil, but that is all. The level of vitriol courtesy of the Moore's and Coutler's in the US these days is scary - each side bends the truth.
User avatar
Plekhanov
Sith Marauder
Posts: 3991
Joined: 2004-04-01 11:09pm
Location: Mercia

Post by Plekhanov »

Ma Deuce wrote:Elfdart, I think it's worth noting noting that right-wingers often accuse Spinsanity of bias as well: Ann Coulter for example, called it a "big Democrat site", because they have frequently ripped apart her spin and outright lies as well (In fact, they have twice as many articles on her than Moore).
Coulter is thought to be insane by many on the (American) right a condemnation from her doesn’t really count, do you know if any of the less psychotic, high profile right wing propagandists have also condemned spinsanity?

Also Ann Coulter publishes so much more than Moore that the relative number of articles on her doesn’t really prove anything.
User avatar
Glocksman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7233
Joined: 2002-09-03 06:43pm
Location: Mr. Five by Five

Post by Glocksman »

Most of the ones who are 'outed' by Spinsanity tend to ignore it altogether.

The best way to judge Spinsanity's nonpartisanship is to look at all of the topics covered

For example, they both expose Bush's spin tactics and untruths while at the same time exposing the spin and untruths that Bush's opponents use to attack him.

I've been reading Spinsanity for a long time and they're pretty even handed in the exposure of bullshit from both the left and right.
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

Oderint dum metuant
User avatar
Ma Deuce
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4359
Joined: 2004-02-02 03:22pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Post by Ma Deuce »

For example, they both expose Bush's spin tactics and untruths while at the same time exposing the spin and untruths that Bush's opponents use to attack him.
And conversly, they have exposed Kerry's spin as well as the spin his opponents attack him with...
Image
The M2HB: The Greatest Machinegun Ever Made.
HAB: Crew-Served Weapons Specialist


"Making fun of born-again Christians is like hunting dairy cows with a high powered rifle and scope." --P.J. O'Rourke

"A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." --J.S. Mill
User avatar
Glocksman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7233
Joined: 2002-09-03 06:43pm
Location: Mr. Five by Five

Post by Glocksman »

Elfdart wrote: My point, if you had read the first one was that Spinsanity (1) Plays fast and loose with facts (see mediamatters.org, who recently busted Spinsanity's bullshit) and thus has little room to bitch about Michael Moore's "innuendo" and (2) created a false dichotomy between the outright lies of cranks like Rush Windbag, Bill O'LIEly and Ann "thrax" Coulter and the biased reporting of Michael Moore.
How about a link to the media matters story on Spinsanity?
I did a search on their site for 'Spinsanity' and came up empty handed.

Oh, and the bit he did with the Condi Rice film clip was simply 'biased reporting'? :roll:
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

Oderint dum metuant
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10688
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Post by Elfdart »

Glocksman wrote:
Elfdart wrote: My point, if you had read the first one was that Spinsanity (1) Plays fast and loose with facts (see mediamatters.org, who recently busted Spinsanity's bullshit) and thus has little room to bitch about Michael Moore's "innuendo" and (2) created a false dichotomy between the outright lies of cranks like Rush Windbag, Bill O'LIEly and Ann "thrax" Coulter and the biased reporting of Michael Moore.
How about a link to the media matters story on Spinsanity?
I did a search on their site for 'Spinsanity' and came up empty handed.
It's on the right side of the page, but I'll just post it here:

From the Philadelphia Inquirer -June 1, 2004
Posted on Tue, Jun. 01, 2004


Letters | One Reader's View

Spinsanity distorts media critic's report


On May 20, The Inquirer published a commentary by "the good folks at Spinsanity" that grossly distorted a recent Media Matters for America report.

Spinsanity wrote that in our May 3 piece titled "Backdating the Recession" we attacked "several Republicans who suggested in late 2000 and early 2001 that a recession might be approaching." Spinsanity opined, "Given that a recession began only a few months later, [Vice-President-elect Dick] Cheney and [former House Speaker Newt] Gingrich's comments seem prescient, not deceptive."

That is a distortion. First, Spinsanity implies that our report focused on Republican officials like Cheney. It did not. In keeping with our mission to combat conservative misinformation in the media, our report focused not on Republican officials but on political reporting in media outlets ranging from CNN and Fox News to the Chattanooga Times Free Press and the Florida Times-Union.

Second, we didn't "attack" (or even criticize) any Republican for suggesting that a recession might be approaching. We simply pointed out that Republicans made those suggestions so that our readers could see the origins of the conservative talking point that Bush "inherited" a recession.

Finally, Gingrich's comments weren't "prescient." We quoted him as saying, "[T]here's a danger he's going to inherit a recession," a quote Spinsanity omits. As Spinsanity itself notes, "the National Bureau of Economic Research dates the start of the recession to March 2001." So Bush didn't "inherit" a recession; a recession began after he took office. Obviously, since the event Gingrich predicted didn't come to pass, his comments weren't "prescient." Spinsanity is guilty of the very "deceptive spin" and use of "faulty evidence" of which it accuses us.

Regarding Spinsanity's criticism of our poll question, that poll was conducted by Geoff Garin, who is one of the most widely respected pollsters in the country and has nearly 30 years of polling experience. We're comfortable with his methodology.

David Brock
President and CEO
Media Matters for America

Washington
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

Elfdart, if you had half a brain you would drop this notion that Spinsanity has some special grudge against Moore and simply argue that they don't do a good enough job of distinguishing spin-doctoring and misleading impressions from outright bald-faced lies.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10688
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Post by Elfdart »

Glocksman, I read David Kopel's ravings and I've come to the conclusion that to be accused of twisting words, selective editing and outright lies by Kopel is like being called a bad husband by O.J. Simpson.

Kopel claims that "at least 1100 people were improperly purged". Try almost NINETY TIMES that number! See "Jeb Bush's Secret Weapon" on salon.com . 94,000 people were "scrubbed" from Florida's voting rolls, presumably for being convicted felons. It turns out that 91,000 weren't felons. What's more, Jeb & Co. were just caught red-handed trying to Klu Klux more voters from the rolls. How can you tell when Kopel's bullshitting? When he types!

Besides, anyone who quotes Christopher Hitchens, an ex-Trotskyist who recently made a drunken stagger to the Right, as a credible source is playing Three-Card Monty. Hitchens is a groupie for Chalabi even after he was exposed as an Iranian agent. Hitchens is also a big fan of neo-Nazi Holocaust denier and pseudo-historian David Irving -calling him "a great historian of fascism". This "great historian" claimed that Anne Frank's diary was a forgery. :roll:

Kopel's other crank source? Laurie Mylroie, who claims that not only was Saddam Hussein behind the 9/11 bombings, but he was also behind Oklahoma City! :lol:

But wait -there's more! Kopel drags out uber-shyster Stephen Hayes. Special thanks to Vympel and Juan Cole for this gem:

Vympel wrote:Remember that Al-Qaeda/ Iraqi embassy/ Iraqi intelligence agent claim by the Weekly Standard's resident Iraq hack, Stephen Hayes?

Quote:
Neocons can't Spell

A reader asked me to comment on the controversy over whether an Iraqi intelligence agent was detailed to al-Qaeda in Kuala Lumpur to be the guy that picked people up at the airport. It was covered by the Washington Post after the allegation was made by 9/11 Commission member John Lehman, former secretary of the Navy.

The al-Qaeda employee in Malaysia is named Ahmad Hikmat Shakir Azzawi.

The Iraqi intelligence agent is named Lt. Col. Hikmat Shakir Ahmad.

Political Scientist Christopher Carney, who was brought in to look at documents by Doug Feith's Office of Special Plans so as to second-guess trained analysts at the CIA who actually know Arabic, first made the mistake of identifying the two. Carney is an Americanist at Penn State and had no business butting in.

The family name (here, nisba) of the al-Qaeda guy in Malaysia is Azzawi.

The family name of the guy in Iraqi intelligence is Ahmad.

Do you notice how they are not the same?

The personal or first name of the al-Qaeda guy is Ahmad.

The personal or first name of the Iraqi intelligence agent is Hikmat.

Do you notice how it is not the same?

So, Ahmad Azzawi is not Hikmat Ahmad. See how easy that is?

Mr. Ahmad Azzawi has a couple of middle names, to wit, Hikmat Shakir. Having a couple of middle names is common in the Arab world.

Lt. Col. Hikmat Ahmad just has one middle name, Shakir. This is the only place at which there is any overlap between them at all. They share a middle name. And, o.k., one of Azzawi's middle names is the same as Lt. Col. Ahmad's first name.

This would be like having someone named Mark Walter Paul Johnson who is a chauffeur for Holiday Inn.

And then you have a CIA agent named Walter Paul Mark.

Obviously, it is the same guy, right? Natch.

Azzawi is a nisbah, a form of last name having to do with a place or occupation or tribe. I'm not sure, but an `azzaw might be someone who specialized in consoling family members over the death of a loved one. It is being used as a family name.

Lt. Col. Ahmad's last name could also be used as a first name. It may well be his father's first name. Some Arab families use a system like that in Scandinavia. Thus, the father is Thor Odinsson and the son is Loki Thorsson. There isn't a stable family name in that case. In the old style, he might be Hikmat ibn Ahmad or the son of Ahmad, but a lot of people drop the ibn nowadays. Most families either have a nisba type family name or they don't. If a guy's last name is Azzawi, that would certainly be in the government records. Lt. Col. Ahmad did not have Azzawi as a family name.

The first name or personal name is called "ism". In this case, the first name of the al-Qaeda guy is Ahmad. This means "the most praised" and is an epithet of the Prophet Muhammad.

The ism or personal name of the intelligence officer is Hikmat. Hikmah in Arabic means "wisdom." Hikmat with a long 't' at the end shows Ottoman influence, which in turn suggests an upper class Sunni background.

There isn't actually any similarity at all between the names of chauffeur Mr. Ahmad Azzawi and intelligence official Lt. Col. Hikmat Ahmad, from an Arab point of view. (For a lot of purposes you would drop the middle names).

Mr. Carney, Mr. Lehman, journalist Stephen Hayes, Undersecretary of Defense Douglas Feith, and all the other persons who gave a moment's thought to the idea that these two are the same person, based on these names, have wasted precious moments of their lives and have helped kill over 800 US servicemen, over an elementary error deriving from complete ignorance of Arabic and Arab culture.

Isn't it a shame that we have these key people doing important things who are either incompetent ignoramuses or dumb as posts?

Stephen Hayes of the Weekly Standard was on Jon Stewart's Daily Show Monday, by the way, peddling his book, which is full of similar nonsense, and at one point Stewart actually told him he thought the book was a load of crap. Stewart's Daily Show is among the best sources of news analysis on television.
:lol:

Watching right-wing mouth-breathers and candyassed liberals trying to knock down Michael Moore is even funnier than Wile E. Coyote's plots against the Roadrunner. I can't wait for Kopel, Hitchens, Cohen, Mylroie, Hayes and the wankers at Spinsanity to try to blame their stupidity and ineptitude on faulty ACME products.
User avatar
Elfdart
The Anti-Shep
Posts: 10688
Joined: 2004-04-28 11:32pm

Post by Elfdart »

Darth Wong wrote:Elfdart, if you had half a brain you would drop this notion that Spinsanity has some special grudge against Moore and simply argue that they don't do a good enough job of distinguishing spin-doctoring and misleading impressions from outright bald-faced lies.
Special grudge against Moore? No, they have similar grudges against other strident liberals and left-wingers. Their limp smears against Media Whores Online were just as bad: they claimed that the website's nasty -and funny- tone was a disservice to readers. What they do is lump the outright lies of Ann "thrax" (a nickname coined by MWO) Coulter in with biased and selective editing by Michael Moore. Apples and rutabegas.

Want to call Moore "unfair", "biased", "obnoxious"? You'll get no argument from me. But the people who accuse him of making things up have to do better than what David Kopel, Michael Isikoff and Spinsanity have come up with. In order to produce mud to sling at Moore, they've submerged themselves neck deep in bullshit.
User avatar
Glocksman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7233
Joined: 2002-09-03 06:43pm
Location: Mr. Five by Five

Post by Glocksman »

Is Media Matters run by the selfsame David Brock who wrote The Real Anita Hill and used to be a reporter for the Washington Times and the American Spectator?

If so, you shouldn't throw stones at Hitchens's apparent lurch to the right. :lol:

Anyway, I went back and read the original articles in question.

Here's the column Brock is responding to (posted because registration is required):
Liberal counterattack starts unfair, gets worse

During the past year, a number of liberal groups have begun to move aggressively to counter conservative influence in the media. One of the newest participants in this effort, a group called Media Matters for America, has already demonstrated its willingness to use unfair standards and faulty evidence to attack its opponents.

In one of the group's first analyses, Media Matters examines attempts by conservatives to claim that President Bush "inherited" a recession from Bill Clinton. They are correct that a respected committee at the National Bureau of Economic Research dates the start of the recession to March 2001 - contrary to those who suggest it began before Bush took office.

However, the group attacks several Republicans who suggested in late 2000 and early 2001 that a recession might be approaching. In December 2000, for instance, then-Vice-President-elect Dick Cheney stated that "we may well be on the front edge of a recession here," and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich said, "I think there is a very severe danger of a recession."

At the time, of course, no one knew for sure whether the economy was in recession (NBER's finding that the recession began in March 2001 was released the following November), but there were signs of economic decline. Given that a recession began only a few months later, Cheney and Gingrich's comments seem prescient, not deceptive.

Media Matters also commissioned a poll that supposedly demonstrates that "62 percent of Americans hold the false belief that the recession began under Clinton." But respondents were actually asked whether they thought the statement that "statistics show that the current economic recession actually began during Bill Clinton's administration, before George W. Bush took office" was true. By asserting that "statistics show" the recession began under Clinton, the group's wording stacks the deck in favor of its preconceived conclusion.

This analysis is not an encouraging sign. The last thing the American political media need is another critic adding to the barrage of spin.

In an election year, it's always guilt-by-association season

In the last few weeks, the Bush administration has twice attacked political opponents by connecting them to hated figures. Most recently, in a letter to the editor in the Washington Post on Saturday, Lawrence Di Rita, a spokesperson for the Department of Defense, compared the newspaper to the soldiers accused of mistreating prisoners at Abu Ghraib Prison outside Baghdad. His evidence? A recent Post editorial questioning the relationship between administration policies and the abuse scandal.

The May 12 editorial argued that new U.S. government procedures for "harsh" prisoner interrogation violate the Geneva Conventions and "contributed to the criminal abuse of prisoners in Iraq." The paper criticized congressional testimony by Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence Stephen A. Cambone, who argued that the actions of the guards at the prison were the fault of individual soldiers and commanders, not the larger intelligence-gathering system.

Di Rita responded by comparing the paper itself to the prison guards, stating that "the Post's continued editorializing on narrow definitions of international laws and whether our soldiers understand them puts the Post in the same company as those involved in this despicable behavior in terms of apparent disregard for basic human dignity."

This attack echoes a recent statement by Bush adviser Karen Hughes. During an April 25 appearance on CNN's Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer, she connected support for the right to abortion to the beliefs of al-Qaeda.

Hughes described President Bush's desire to decrease the number of abortions and increase adoptions. Then she declared, "I think those are the kind of policies that the American people can support, particularly at a time when we're facing an enemy, and really the fundamental difference between us and the terror network we fight is that we value every life.... Unfortunately, our enemies in the terror network, as we're seeing repeatedly in the headlines these days, don't value any life, not even the innocent and not even their own."

These guilt-by-association tactics are a sad substitute for honest political argument.
Here's the Media Matters article

While the SS piece doesn't mention the attacks on Hannity, O'Reilly, etc., neither does it misstate or misquote the article in question. The SS piece is correct in stating that the MM article does attack Cheney, Daniels, etc.

Something that surprised me though is that SS doesn't mention that while the recession officially started just two months after Bush took office, the groundwork for it was laid long before with the stock market crash of 2000 and the resulting loss of both equity and consumer confidence.

If nothing else, the fact that is started less than 2 months (sworn in on January 20) after he took office is proof that he had little to do with it because at that point he was still getting his adminstration confirmed by the Senate and settling in and hadn't had a chance to get any legislation passed by that point.

His tax cut package (his economic centerpiece) didn't even pass until late May.

Brock is spinning at about the speed of my 7200rpm Seagate hard drive on this issue. :P
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."- General Sir Charles Napier

Oderint dum metuant
User avatar
Joe
Space Cowboy
Posts: 17314
Joined: 2002-08-22 09:58pm
Location: Wishing I was in Athens, GA

Post by Joe »

Is Media Matters run by the selfsame David Brock who wrote The Real Anita Hill and used to be a reporter for the Washington Times and the American Spectator?
Yes, he says he was a liar then but we have his assurance that he's telling the truth all the time now. :wink:
Image

BoTM / JL / MM / HAB / VRWC / Horseman

I'm studying for the CPA exam. Have a nice summer, and if you're down just sit back and realize that Joe is off somewhere, doing much worse than you are.
Post Reply