EU to open membership talks with Turkey.

[TheDarkling]

BBC

No real surprise, although it will ruffle some feathers especially among the more Euro sceptical.

[Colonel Olrik]

Still sitting on the fence regarding this one, guess I can see them in after a major consolidation of the EU structures, and one/two decades of economical and social evolution both of the EU and Turkey, that's their goal anyway.

[TheDarkling]

Still sitting on the fence regarding this one, guess I can see them in after a major consolidation of the EU structures, and one/two decades of economical and social evolution both of the EU and Turkey, that's their goal anyway.

If the prospect of Turkey joining the EU destroys the CAP then it is worth it on that basis alone.

I think concerns about how poor Turkey is are somewhat overwrought , if they join in about a decade (and assuming they maintain a minimum of current rates of growth) they will have about the same GDP per capita than Poland had when it joined this year and a higher one than Romania will have when they join in 3 years.

The sheer size of Turkey presents some problems but given it is about equal to the size of the most recent enlargement it isn't too much of an influx of the poor.

The far more pressing issues in my mind are immigration and the secularity issue (as the EU is intent on reducing the militaries power over politics in Turkey and it is the military that has kept the government secular I have concerns about a resurgence of religion in politics within Turkey).
However those concerns can most likely be overcome, especially with another decade of reforms by Turkey and then constant over watch by the EU courts.

[dragon]

My German wife hates the idea. Germany has the same problem with Turkey as the US has with Mexico, lots of illegals. Thousands of Turkish people are deported each year Germany back to Turkey and if they become part of the EU they come and go and stay as they please.

[Wired_Grenadier]

I hate the idea. Great way to create future problems and instability.

[salm]

I hate the idea. Great way to create future problems and instability.

how so, please explain.

[Wired_Grenadier]

A conglomerate like the EU (or for the record, any other organization with the goal to achieve a nation for all the involved) shouldn't expand to the point where the cultural foundation of those involved is no longer given. Diversity may be necessary and useful in some regards, but a union like the EU needs a common foundation to function on, and that foundation can only be culture. The EU's foundation is christianity (or what evolved from it, humanism, rationalism, you name it), be it r.-catholic or protestant, and democracy.

I'm a follower of Huntington's faultline-theory (conflicts are created on cultural faultlines), and probably the best example for that is the Balkans. You have the authoritarian-orthodox, you have the authoritarian-muslim and the authoritarian-catholics, and those differences were enough to spark the Bosnian War. The EU should end where it's cultural foundation ends, and Turkey for sure is not part of that. Turkey is a laizist nation with an authoritarian government and an islamic population. That aside, it's part of Asia Minor and not part of Europe anyway. Letting Turkey in would just create another Balkan. A bigger one.

[salm]

A conglomerate like the EU (or for the record, any other organization with the goal to achieve a nation for all the involved) shouldn't expand to the point where the cultural foundation of those involved is no longer given. Diversity may be necessary and useful in some regards, but a union like the EU needs a common foundation to function on, and that foundation can only be culture. The EU's foundation is christianity (or what evolved from it, humanism, rationalism, you name it), be it r.-catholic or protestant, and democracy.

why shouldn´t it expand beyond cultural foundation?

I'm a follower of Huntington's faultline-theory (conflicts are created on cultural faultlines), and probably the best example for that is the Balkans. You have the authoritarian-orthodox, you have the authoritarian-muslim and the authoritarian-catholics, and those differences were enough to spark the Bosnian War. The EU should end where it's cultural foundation ends, and Turkey for sure is not part of that. Turkey is a laizist nation with an authoritarian government and an islamic population.

on the other hand there are places like india where a massive amounts of cultures lives united under one government quite peacfully.
are you saying that it´s impossible for cultures to overcome their differences?

That aside, it's part of Asia Minor and not part of Europe anyway. Letting Turkey in would just create another Balkan. A bigger one.

i can´t see how a continental border, which is basicly nothing more than an abstract line on a map, and nothing more would be relevant for this issue.
part of it is not europe. who cares?

[Plekhanov]

I hate the idea. Great way to create future problems and instability.

Whereas snubbing Turkey a long time NATO member and friend of the EU and pushing them away from the path of secularism and economic cooperation and development is a road to stability? How so exactly?

A conglomerate like the EU (or for the record, any other organization with the goal to achieve a nation for all the involved)

Since when was nationhood the goal of the EU?

shouldn't expand to the point where the cultural foundation of those involved is no longer given. Diversity may be necessary and useful in some regards, but a union like the EU needs a common foundation to function on, and that foundation can only be culture. The EU's foundation is Christianity

Bullshit in what way is the EU’s foundation Christianity? If it is the how do you explain the fact that EU citizens are the least religious and most secular people in the world?

(or what evolved from it, humanism, rationalism, you name it), be it r.-catholic or protestant,

I think you’ll find the rediscovery of (pagan) Greek philosophy (btw why no mention of Greek or Eastern Orthodox Christianity in your little list?) during the renaissance, which had of course largely been preserved for us by the scholars of the Islamic world and not Christianity can take credit for this, far from being based upon Christianity or any other religion the EU is in fact notable for it’s secular nature, Europe is by far the most secular continent in the world (other than possibly Antarctica) it’s our secular nature not our Christianity that set’s us apart.

and democracy.

And how long had Spain and Portugal been Democracies before they joined? How about the recent round of new members from Eastern Europe? Turkey is relatively democratic, has been for a long time and will move further down the road to true democracy and human rights if the prize of EU membership is within its grasp.

I'm a follower of Huntington's faultline-theory (conflicts are created on cultural faultlines), and probably the best example for that is the Balkans. You have the authoritarian-orthodox, you have the authoritarian-muslim and the authoritarian-catholics, and those differences were enough to spark the Bosnian War.

You make it sound as if the conflict in the Balkans was in some way un-European, I don’t mean to shock you but Europeans have been killing each other and anybody else they can find for thousands of years, you may recall that your country was involved in a few of the more recent conflicts. The peace in Europe since 45 isn’t the norm to which the recent Balkan conflict is an aberration, the peace we enjoy is quite exceptional and the EU has played no small part in sustaining it by including Turkey in the EU we will be extending area of stability and economic prosperity which you and I are so lucky to live in.

The EU should end where it's cultural foundation ends,

Well we seem to have done OK with the Greeks who you may have noticed where on the other side of the Catholic/Orthodox schism and whom for much of our History were not thought to be part of Europe how does Huntington account for this?

and Turkey for sure is not part of that.

Please explain why Turley is “for sure not part” of our “cultural foundation” and why that bullshit phrase matters.

Turkey is a laizist nation with an authoritarian government and an islamic population.

Yes much of the population are muslim, so long as they are secular so what?

That aside, it's part of Asia Minor and not part of Europe anyway.

Lines upon a map meaning nothing, the boundaries of Europe are elastic, there has never been a clear geographical or cultural dividing line for where the East of Europe ends and the rest of the world begins. Check out a map of the Roman world back then Turkey was part of the “civilised” Roman Empire and your part of the world was inhabited by ‘barbarians’.

Letting Turkey in would just create another Balkan. A bigger one.

Why?

[2000AD]

Does Turkey still have a piss poor economy?
(When i went on holiday there the currency went from 550000 lira to 600000+ lira per pound.)

[ArmorPierce]

Does Turkey still have a piss poor economy?
(When i went on holiday there the currency went from 550000 lira to 600000+ lira per pound.)

Turkey still has a massive problem with inflation.